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⸺ HIP-Archive ⸺ / hip-42-beacon-witness-ratio-witness-reward-limit
Tracking/discussion issue: https://github.com/helium/HIP/issues/303
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ProfiGembler 10/11/2021 1:57 PM
where is hip 41? 😀
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ProfiGembler
where is hip 41? 😀
It's the witness decay proposal that Hashc0de was working on... surprised it hasn't been published yet... now I am pretty fond of HIP-42 though 🚀
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io pinned a message to this channel. 10/11/2021 2:06 PM
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ProfiGembler 10/11/2021 2:06 PM
oh tnx, I was looking for this.
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friends just call me bob 10/11/2021 3:08 PM
How can someone improve their beaconing in the first place (besides maybe getting out of relayed). Is it not also an issue of a particular maker/firmware that slows down beacon rate of the device? How will that be taking into consideration with this hip? (edited)
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friends just call me bob
How can someone improve their beaconing in the first place (besides maybe getting out of relayed). Is it not also an issue of a particular maker/firmware that slows down beacon rate of the device? How will that be taking into consideration with this hip? (edited)
Jaytheblader 10/11/2021 3:16 PM
Having a stable IP address helps too, with the challenges being moved to the validators in the coming months the successful beacon rate should dramatically improve and unless a gateway has a very poor setup or is gaming HIP-42 wont even come close to affecting it.
15:19
In the meantime we may need to be generous with the variables to cater for the network running sub-optimal, that's what i feel we need to discuss here to keep this one moving.
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Anthonyra
It's the witness decay proposal that Hashc0de was working on... surprised it hasn't been published yet... now I am pretty fond of HIP-42 though 🚀
Jaytheblader 10/11/2021 3:27 PM
The thing i like about HIP-42 is it mandates full participation in POC, at the moment the code allows for half participation (the half that benefits yourself).
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theskywatcher 10/11/2021 7:38 PM
So suppose a miner only has one witness to their beacons. Is my math right that the witness cap would be 2.4? (edited)
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Skimmed this, I like it a lot. Good work.
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theskywatcher
So suppose a miner only has one witness to their beacons. Is my math right that the witness cap would be 2.4? (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/11/2021 8:51 PM
1 witness over what time period?
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Tarek
ELI5?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/11/2021 10:10 PM
If you witness a lot more than you have witnesses, then your rewards will be capped. Basically you have to be cheating to hit that point.
22:11
Like these hotspots making 20hnt in a day, but have no witnesses.
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Carl-bot BOT 10/11/2021 10:11 PM
Witnesses are reset whenever a Hotspot's location, antenna values, or elevation are changed. This is nothing to be concerned about as the Witness list is used to illustrate Hotspots that have seen a beacon from your Hotspot and does not affect your ability to earn HNT. Learn more: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
If you witness a lot more than you have witnesses, then your rewards will be capped. Basically you have to be cheating to hit that point.
So what if new hotspots were deployed and you’re witnessing more
00:40
And whats stopping these people from doing it with new hotspots
00:40
Instead of hotspots that already have witnessed before
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
1 witness over what time period?
theskywatcher 10/12/2021 12:45 AM
Let’s suppose five days
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Tarek
So what if new hotspots were deployed and you’re witnessing more
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/12/2021 12:46 AM
You'll also have more witnesses
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Tarek
And whats stopping these people from doing it with new hotspots
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/12/2021 12:47 AM
They would get stopped automatically too.
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theskywatcher
Let’s suppose five days
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/12/2021 12:48 AM
Then something is wrong with that hotspot
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theskywatcher 10/12/2021 12:49 AM
Ok but what would happen on that case? They would have a witness limit of 3?
00:50
What about a miner that has zero witnesses. Can they not witness anyone until they get a witness (let’s suppose that the hotspot was asserted as a lone wolf a long time ago)
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theskywatcher
What about a miner that has zero witnesses. Can they not witness anyone until they get a witness (let’s suppose that the hotspot was asserted as a lone wolf a long time ago)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/12/2021 12:54 AM
This situation is stated in the hip (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
This situation is stated in the hip (edited)
theskywatcher 10/12/2021 12:54 AM
The only situation I see in the hip is a recently asserted hotspot
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theskywatcher
The only situation I see in the hip is a recently asserted hotspot
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/12/2021 12:55 AM
If they have 0 witnesses, they are not a healthy hotspot
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
If they have 0 witnesses, they are not a healthy hotspot
theskywatcher 10/12/2021 12:57 AM
So my understanding is correct then: a non recently asserted hotspot with 0 witnesses could not witness any beacons, a hotspot with one could witness 3 and so on?
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theskywatcher
So my understanding is correct then: a non recently asserted hotspot with 0 witnesses could not witness any beacons, a hotspot with one could witness 3 and so on?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/12/2021 12:58 AM
Correct on point 1. I think point 2 is correct, but I'd need to double check to see if the math changed.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Correct on point 1. I think point 2 is correct, but I'd need to double check to see if the math changed.
theskywatcher 10/12/2021 1:01 AM
Well it depends on if you round up or down(if my understanding is right). I think this is bad for edge cases: ppl far away from other miners or people with only the stock antenna indoors. Hurts people in countries where it is illegal to increase antenna dbi as well. Seems like you would want to have some base number of witnesses (how to pick that number I don’t know) and then asymptotically approach the stated equation I’m the HIP. (edited)
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theskywatcher
Well it depends on if you round up or down(if my understanding is right). I think this is bad for edge cases: ppl far away from other miners or people with only the stock antenna indoors. Hurts people in countries where it is illegal to increase antenna dbi as well. Seems like you would want to have some base number of witnesses (how to pick that number I don’t know) and then asymptotically approach the stated equation I’m the HIP. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/12/2021 1:04 AM
Those are all assumptions that have not been shown to be true. There is literally as calculator you can plug any hotspot into and see.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Those are all assumptions that have not been shown to be true. There is literally as calculator you can plug any hotspot into and see.
theskywatcher 10/12/2021 1:05 AM
I gotta head to bed. Can you link the calculator?
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theskywatcher
I gotta head to bed. Can you link the calculator?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/12/2021 1:07 AM
I'll link it later when I'm on the computer
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maco2035 🐮 10/12/2021 7:35 AM
What happens when you have witness list that are 0?
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Carl-bot BOT 10/12/2021 7:35 AM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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maco2035 🐮
What happens when you have witness list that are 0?
If your wits list is zero and you're witnessing other hotspots beacons than I'd say the setup needs some TLC...
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maco2035 🐮 10/12/2021 8:26 AM
Well the witness list resets so.
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Carl-bot BOT 10/12/2021 8:26 AM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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maco2035 🐮
Well the witness list resets so.
Isn't it the average number of witnesses to your beacons over some length of time? If so, then an assertion that wipes your witness list shouldn't be a problem.
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Carl-bot BOT 10/12/2021 10:11 AM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
10:26
@Anthonyra If this calc is still correct, we should pin it for people so they can use it to get real world examples. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
@Anthonyra If this calc is still correct, we should pin it for people so they can use it to get real world examples. 🙂
I think that would be a good idea, I wanted to whip together a fancy dashboard to assist in checking people hotspots but ... I'm lost in the sauce with how the dashboards work for what I want them to do haha
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Anthonyra
I think that would be a good idea, I wanted to whip together a fancy dashboard to assist in checking people hotspots but ... I'm lost in the sauce with how the dashboards work for what I want them to do haha
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/12/2021 10:29 AM
Oh, some sort of "% of current hotspots limited" sort of thing?
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Yea, like a total number of hotspots that have a 0 wits list, the beaconing dashboard as a link for more details into their hotspots beacon performance etc
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rbrtio
Isn't it the average number of witnesses to your beacons over some length of time? If so, then an assertion that wipes your witness list shouldn't be a problem.
maco2035 🐮 10/12/2021 10:43 AM
Nope it retests like to 0 on average some X blocks. Some chainvar controls it
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maco2035 🐮
Nope it retests like to 0 on average some X blocks. Some chainvar controls it
Ohh, yeah, I see what your saying.
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maco2035 🐮 10/12/2021 10:44 AM
So this will just stop witnessing for like 1/2 the network.
10:44
Like very quickly
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If they currently have no witnesses yes. If they currently have no witnesses over a 5 day period of time the value that they add to the network is questionable isn't it? If the network is built to support sensors, and the hotspot can't send a downlink to a sensor or respond to a join, should it be rewarded?
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Carl-bot BOT 10/12/2021 10:54 AM
Witnesses are reset whenever a Hotspot's location, antenna values, or elevation are changed. This is nothing to be concerned about as the Witness list is used to illustrate Hotspots that have seen a beacon from your Hotspot and does not affect your ability to earn HNT. Learn more: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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Sometimes I think we loose our way and forget that the network is here to support sensors, not just to do PoC activities. (edited)
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rbrtio
Sometimes I think we loose our way and forget that the network is here to support sensors, not just to do PoC activities. (edited)
maco2035 🐮 10/12/2021 10:56 AM
Well yeah, this is crypto!
10:56
How much of eth is for eth, and how much it is to build the platform?
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I mined eth for the rewards with 54 GPUs. It is difficult to compare though as Helium supports physical things that actually exist, it isn't just a blockchain.
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maco2035 🐮 10/12/2021 10:58 AM
Well eth supports physical things too, like contracts and such.
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Smart contracts that all live on chain, it still isn't the same from my perspective.
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maco2035 🐮
Nope it retests like to 0 on average some X blocks. Some chainvar controls it
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/12/2021 11:50 AM
Pretty sure it only resets on re-asserts and antenna changes. Where is this code that resets the wits list?
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maco2035 🐮 10/12/2021 12:00 PM
Well I am not sure if it still happens. But in the past it does.
12:00
I need to check the chainvar (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Pretty sure it only resets on re-asserts and antenna changes. Where is this code that resets the wits list?
maco2035 🐮 10/12/2021 12:01 PM
witness_refresh_interval
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Pretty sure it only resets on re-asserts and antenna changes. Where is this code that resets the wits list?
maco2035 🐮 10/12/2021 12:02 PM
12:03
This is an announcement from Helium directly
12:04
Chain var
12:04
and code
12:04
Miner for the helium blockchain. Contribute to helium/miner development by creating an account on GitHub.
12:08
So the feature isn't being used on the blockchain, and they want to bring it back
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maco2035 🐮
So the feature isn't being used on the blockchain, and they want to bring it back
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/12/2021 12:15 PM
Hmm.. yeah, if they want to bring it back, that would need to be accounted for
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maco2035 🐮
Nope it retests like to 0 on average some X blocks. Some chainvar controls it
fwiw that wits list code is currently dormant on chain... we would remove that refresh on this implementation of it
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maco2035 🐮 10/12/2021 12:18 PM
Again that is adding chain bloat.
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That was also there pre witness randomization to help make sure the list wasn't that stale
12:18
How's it adding chain bloat?
12:18
When I say the wits list on chain, it's actually the ledger for the miner by the way. The actual list won't appear on the chain explicitly but implicitly
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rbrtio
Smart contracts that all live on chain, it still isn't the same from my perspective.
the only thing almost equivalent is oracles, like external price feeds. but even then, not the same
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Jaytheblader 10/12/2021 2:48 PM
I’m wondering if there should be a base minimum that you can witness like 2 per epoch or something to cater for setups that are slow to beacon once asserted and brand new green fields setups. it certainly isn’t enough to exploit but does keep the witness lists growing so they become full participants more quickly.
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Carl-bot BOT 10/12/2021 2:48 PM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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Jaytheblader
I’m wondering if there should be a base minimum that you can witness like 2 per epoch or something to cater for setups that are slow to beacon once asserted and brand new green fields setups. it certainly isn’t enough to exploit but does keep the witness lists growing so they become full participants more quickly.
A minimum like that would be easier than the proposed grace period implementation.. and I'm always wanting to keep it stupid simple. But even if it's set at 1 that's 48 witness rewards possible while not proving it can beacon... I'll have to see what the average 0 wits list hotspot is getting per day => epoch for wits
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Anthonyra
A minimum like that would be easier than the proposed grace period implementation.. and I'm always wanting to keep it stupid simple. But even if it's set at 1 that's 48 witness rewards possible while not proving it can beacon... I'll have to see what the average 0 wits list hotspot is getting per day => epoch for wits
Jaytheblader 10/12/2021 2:59 PM
True, im just concerned if someone sets up 3 hotspots in a new town and they have a bad run of 0 witness beacons on the first few days online then they are caught in a loop of not getting rewarded even thought they are beaconing, until a new hotspot arrives
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Jaytheblader
True, im just concerned if someone sets up 3 hotspots in a new town and they have a bad run of 0 witness beacons on the first few days online then they are caught in a loop of not getting rewarded even thought they are beaconing, until a new hotspot arrives
I 100% agree... hard for me to gauge what would be ideal. I think maybe 24 since that's as if 4 hotspots were nearby and all "6" of their beacons were able to be heard?
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Anthonyra
I 100% agree... hard for me to gauge what would be ideal. I think maybe 24 since that's as if 4 hotspots were nearby and all "6" of their beacons were able to be heard?
Jaytheblader 10/12/2021 3:01 PM
That sounds very reasonable
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Can you limit the amount of witnesses you receive per block/epoch/time? Like x amount per hour is okay but hundreds or thousands per hour seems suspicious and even unnecessary. Or, what if you witnessed x amount of miners and then you have to wait untill you beacon before you can witness x times again (edited)
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Lee
Can you limit the amount of witnesses you receive per block/epoch/time? Like x amount per hour is okay but hundreds or thousands per hour seems suspicious and even unnecessary. Or, what if you witnessed x amount of miners and then you have to wait untill you beacon before you can witness x times again (edited)
That's essentially what the proposal aims to do while defining what a "successful beacon" is.. since there's all different kinds of hotspots. A beacon with one witness is successful if there's only one other hotspot nearby. Where as 18 could also be valid. There's also a lot of volatility that is being accounted for already also
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Lee
Can you limit the amount of witnesses you receive per block/epoch/time? Like x amount per hour is okay but hundreds or thousands per hour seems suspicious and even unnecessary. Or, what if you witnessed x amount of miners and then you have to wait untill you beacon before you can witness x times again (edited)
Jaytheblader 10/12/2021 3:08 PM
Its definitely possible but i think it would require more math, the current proposal is pretty efficient in using already available data.
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We also thought that per epoch would be good until we saw how some epochs could have 5-8 witnesses while the 5 epochs before had 0 and the 2 after had 2... we didn't want to clip those "amazing" epochs while the bad ones existed (edited)
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hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦 10/12/2021 5:37 PM
From the title I like the sound of this. Will dig in later to get the big picture. Thanks for putting this together @Anthonyra
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I like the simplicity of this one. Hopefully it’s a relatively quick process to get this one to a vote. Need to do something about the cheaters.
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Are there any major objections to this HIP? this channel seems quite positive
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Tushar
Are there any major objections to this HIP? this channel seems quite positive
It does sound potentially complicated / computationally complex to implement. Also, not allowing any witnesses if your beacons aren't heard seems a bit harsh. There is some value to the network of having uplink coverage. That said, I totally agree with the idea of limiting rewards if you cannot beacon/downlink.
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ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ 10/13/2021 10:56 AM
@Anthonyra Well written HIP. Regarding the edge cases, should the witness_limit_cap always have a minimum value that is allowed (also controlled by a witness_limit_cap_min chain var). E.g. set to some value that is reasonable like 6 or 10.
10:57
Given there are examples in there for Rough Chili Bird, is there any analysis on how this would impact The Bird? Would love to see a list of 10-20 hotspots that are various edge cases and how they would be impacted.
10:58
In addition to shallow-walnut-yak.
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How about literal "Time Out" if no beacons for 2-3 days? Is that even feasible?
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ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ 10/13/2021 10:59 AM
Aha! I see the link to the dewi tool allows you to check a hotspot by address to see how it would be limited. (edited)
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ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ
Given there are examples in there for Rough Chili Bird, is there any analysis on how this would impact The Bird? Would love to see a list of 10-20 hotspots that are various edge cases and how they would be impacted.
At the time of writing it didn't affect the bird, however it appears to be having relayed issues like the rest of the network..
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PaulM
It does sound potentially complicated / computationally complex to implement. Also, not allowing any witnesses if your beacons aren't heard seems a bit harsh. There is some value to the network of having uplink coverage. That said, I totally agree with the idea of limiting rewards if you cannot beacon/downlink.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 12:19 PM
The devs have said it would be simple to implement IIRC.
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no i don't think it's that straightforward
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capcom
no i don't think it's that straightforward
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 7:03 PM
So I misremembered, or are you replying to something else?
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im no longer sure. but i dont think implementing this is a straightforward job as im not sure what's in the ledger anymore
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capcom
im no longer sure. but i dont think implementing this is a straightforward job as im not sure what's in the ledger anymore
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 7:07 PM
Gotcha. I was likely thinking of the decay rate instead. :)
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the decay is actually already deployed on every single hotspot, just needs a chain variable to activate
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Tushar
Are there any major objections to this HIP? this channel seems quite positive
maco2035 🐮 10/14/2021 6:14 AM
Yeah, this thing doesn't work when the witness list is refreshed. It goes to 0.
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maco2035 🐮
Yeah, this thing doesn't work when the witness list is refreshed. It goes to 0.
Until the hotspot beacons again, plus I have a pretty good idea on how to implement this already just don't want to code anything up if this isn't going to get approved. It's not that different than what was already done before, Yes the old witness list did refresh on a 20k block timer but that isn't needed anymore to ensure the wits list isn't stale. So when re-implementing the wits list the "auto" refresh will be removed. The wits list will however still go to zero on an assert location until they beacon again to fill up the wits list
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capcom
the decay is actually already deployed on every single hotspot, just needs a chain variable to activate
What is keeping the variable from being activated? Vote on a HIP or similar?
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clemsonteg
What is keeping the variable from being activated? Vote on a HIP or similar?
yes, hasn't really been proposed as something that should be done. i believe the proposal is coming
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ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ 10/14/2021 11:27 AM
My big objection is that there are legitimately cases where there is no beacons today (e.g. relayed because there is no way to open ports; cell backhauls; etc). And as the network expands into more rural areas where no coverage exists there is likely to be an increase in cell backhauls to get the coverage needed. (edited)
11:33
I also wonder if there is a way to see if a hotspot is legitimately where it says it is based on analyzing data transfers from sensors. E.g. hotspots in the area they are supposedly in should occasionally receive data from certain sensors...presumably over time you could see that there is some overlap between sensor traffic between each of the hotspots in that area. If a given hotspot NEVER receives data from that sensor, but high witnessing, then it is likely not where it says it is. This also gets rid of packet forwarding as a long term solution, since data credits go to the first to receive...likely always beating out any forwarder.
11:37
A simple solution might be a bloom filter containing a "sensor id" for all DC sensor traffic per RES5. If a hotspot has not received any DCs from any of the sensors in that RES5, then they are presumed not there. To deal with edge cases where there is minimal to no DC traffic is to have a flag per RES5 whether this should be enabled. Typically gamers would not deploy in the middle of nowhere, they would want to be where there are lots of hotspots (which is typically where lots of sensor traffic is). There are lots of subtle details to implementing the bloom filters so they are rotating over 24 hours, etc, but it might be an interesting solution to determining if a hotspot is actually where it says it is.
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ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ
My big objection is that there are legitimately cases where there is no beacons today (e.g. relayed because there is no way to open ports; cell backhauls; etc). And as the network expands into more rural areas where no coverage exists there is likely to be an increase in cell backhauls to get the coverage needed. (edited)
Jaytheblader 10/14/2021 12:55 PM
We talked about this a bit further up and the idea of a minimum you could always witness was proposed to handle these situations. The bottom line is if a gateway is having trouble beaconing then it is not fully participating in the POC process and sensors would also suffer from missing downlinks from that gateway which to me means the rewards should be minimal until that is corrected.
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To simplify implementation, what about something like every time a hotspot beacons, a counter is reset for the number of witnesses that hotspot can submit and it counts down until it is zero and stops being able to submit witnesses. and then, when it beacons again, the counter resets. and, you could set the counter differently based on how many witnesses the beacon gets. for example, if the challenge is acknowledged but there are no witnesses, then maybe set the counter to 2 but if the beacon had witnesses, set it to some multiple of the number of witnesses it got.
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PaulM
To simplify implementation, what about something like every time a hotspot beacons, a counter is reset for the number of witnesses that hotspot can submit and it counts down until it is zero and stops being able to submit witnesses. and then, when it beacons again, the counter resets. and, you could set the counter differently based on how many witnesses the beacon gets. for example, if the challenge is acknowledged but there are no witnesses, then maybe set the counter to 2 but if the beacon had witnesses, set it to some multiple of the number of witnesses it got.
I do like the simplicity of this and it meets all of the same goals. I’m just curious on how forgiving it could be though.. for example even if the average is 3 beacons per day there’s nothing currently forcing atleast x beacons per day. Unless of course we have a hip that puts a minimum number of beacons a day?
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Anthonyra
I do like the simplicity of this and it meets all of the same goals. I’m just curious on how forgiving it could be though.. for example even if the average is 3 beacons per day there’s nothing currently forcing atleast x beacons per day. Unless of course we have a hip that puts a minimum number of beacons a day?
Yeah, the unfairness comes in the fact that many challengers have bad networking leading to the challengee/beaconer and witnesses being unable to delivery a receipt which is why we see fewer beacones / hotspot on average than we'd expect. In theory, this averages out though.,
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Then again, back long long ago we did have test beacons "0-hop PoC" that was used to build the wits list on newly asserted hotspots. Which could be used for the baseline? Another thought, if a hotspot beacons would the resulting counter add to an existing value? I'd say yes kinda like rollover (edited)
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0-hop beacons were still constructed by a challenger though, so same situation as today, no?
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Anthonyra
Then again, back long long ago we did have test beacons "0-hop PoC" that was used to build the wits list on newly asserted hotspots. Which could be used for the baseline? Another thought, if a hotspot beacons would the resulting counter add to an existing value? I'd say yes kinda like rollover (edited)
i'd say no 🙂 (to the rollover) (edited)
17:21
use it or loose it
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I guess if the counter was generous it wouldn't need to rollover
17:22
Plus that could result in a new gaming vector too since I've seen hotspots with 20+ beacons while others get 4-6 in the same timeframe
17:24
The test beacons would need a challenger, and the 0 witnesses would also be the same issue but it would allow miners to request beacon vice a challenger randomly selecting from a list of potential target hexes. Mind you these test beacons wouldn't reward PoC just simply provide a means to reset the counter if they're unlucky enough to not be picked. The request would still need to be checked via the CG though to ensure no one can inflate this counter via these requests (edited)
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but, the complaining "why haven't i been challenged; my counter won't reset" 🤣
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PaulM
but, the complaining "why haven't i been challenged; my counter won't reset" 🤣
Right, and I think those test beacons could help haha... maybe they need a better name for their purpose. But if the miner hasn't been requested to beacon over 2 or 3 poc_intervals it can request a beacon (which doesn't get rewarded) just used to reset the counter? (edited)
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maco2035 🐮 10/14/2021 5:36 PM
Idk, I like hip-14 way better then this tbh
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maco2035 🐮
Idk, I like hip-14 way better then this tbh
Are you trolling or do you care to elaborate?
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PaulM
Are you trolling or do you care to elaborate?
maco2035 🐮 10/14/2021 6:19 PM
I seriously think hip-14 is the best way for PoC. Not the combo of hip-15/17. And the way the pebble method works is a better idea for hotspots PoC
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maco2035 🐮
I seriously think hip-14 is the best way for PoC. Not the combo of hip-15/17. And the way the pebble method works is a better idea for hotspots PoC
While in the long run it may be better, we are discussing a potential incremental change that can help to quickly alleviate gaming. A wholesale change to PoC will be much harder to gain concensus on and implement.
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PaulM
While in the long run it may be better, we are discussing a potential incremental change that can help to quickly alleviate gaming. A wholesale change to PoC will be much harder to gain concensus on and implement.
maco2035 🐮 10/14/2021 6:57 PM
However I believe it is like a good idea for gaming, the issue is the hip-14 is a better method to prevent gaming in general.
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Maybe this HIP can be simplified by having a reward penalty accumulate over time and decreased as beacons are witnessed. (edited)
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radical
Maybe this HIP can be simplified by having a reward penalty accumulate over time and decreased as beacons are witnessed. (edited)
I’m not fond of adding to many decays or penalties or ratings anymore. Not because it’s a bad idea but because people will not care to find out why a reward penalty exists and they will not care to find out how it even works. We had PoC rating in the beginning and it was a never ending discussion in discord just like how transmit reward scale is now. I think a counter would be about the same and just by looking at the previous beacon can be easily calculated. The wits list (which mine is based on) already exists on Explorer and most people understand what it even means. With that being said it’s an alternative and I can put it on the next revision of the HIP
05:35
Also with the wits list being over 5 days it can dampen the affects of a hotspot not being selected to beacon for a day simply because of not being lucky. However, a simple minimum would lessen this but not perfectly.. I guess it’ll be more harsh and feel less out of ones control. And we will hear more “why hasn’t my hotspot beacon yet and since it hasn’t I’m getting ALL invalid witnesses 🤬 they did this and this isn’t the peoples network” (edited)
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I'm just really considering what is available on chain. The witness list is a construct of the explorer, it's not really on chain correct? It would be nice to have a solution that lives on the chain.
05:54
or course, you can also extract that data from the chain, just lot's of work to do for a validator... or maybe not?
05:55
just having a running counter or penalty, whatever you want to call it, is much simpler, but not necessarily better
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radical
I'm just really considering what is available on chain. The witness list is a construct of the explorer, it's not really on chain correct? It would be nice to have a solution that lives on the chain.
Just to clarify, on chain for a miner means the ledger. Back in multi-hop days the wits list was on ledger. The code is still there just not actively being used since it didn’t have a purpose after HIP-15
05:59
It would would be very similar to how the current IP hash bloom filter is populated for a currently used system for example. (edited)
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ok, so use a bloom filter to for each hotspot to count unique witnesses?
06:04
does that work for a moving window?
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Well, it wouldn’t necessarily be a bloom filter per say… but similar to how the IP hash bloom filter is built. It is more complex than a simple limit based on the most recent beacon for sure. However, based on the fact that there’s no minimum beacon a day you could simply have a day with zero PoC rewards simply from luck.. or if a minimum exists a very low day compared to normal (edited)
06:11
The 5 day window is meant to buffer for those randomly bad days.
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yes, i understand that
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I'm okay with being slightly more complex if it's more forgiving in regards to things that people don't have direct control over.. also with light hotspots we should see better performance across the network since most network issues will not exist anymore. However, I still think linking beacon performance to witness rewards will help strength the network as a whole. Just current implementation will need to be more flexible until than (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/15/2021 9:10 AM
Wrong channel
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ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ 10/15/2021 4:06 PM
As more consumer grade routers start blocking incoming traffic by country (like Ubiquiti and others), how will this effect beaconing? Presumably even if port 44158 is open, if the challenger is in one of the blocked countries this will be a problem since the hotspot won't beacon. This will likely be less (or a non-issue) once Validators start issuing challenges...but in the meantime is this an issue?
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with light hotspots it wouldn't be a concern, but definitely a thing today
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capcom
with light hotspots it wouldn't be a concern, but definitely a thing today
ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ 10/15/2021 6:23 PM
Thx. So sounds like we'd have to wait until light hotspots until something based on limiting by number of beacons could roll out? (edited)
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What if the validator is located in China and my firewall blocks traffic from there; seems like I won’t beacon. Or are light hotspot beacon instructions pulled and not broadcasted?
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How can I add a photo? I am getting a Witnessed Beacon Invalid, 2 days now and 0 earnings?
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ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ
Thx. So sounds like we'd have to wait until light hotspots until something based on limiting by number of beacons could roll out? (edited)
Jaytheblader 10/16/2021 7:34 AM
I don’t agree, if your firewall is blocking incoming traffic you cannot send downlinks to nodes and not sending beacons for others to witness and earn rewards so you are only half participating in the network and shouldn’t be getting earnings as though you are fully operational. (edited)
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Jaytheblader
I don’t agree, if your firewall is blocking incoming traffic you cannot send downlinks to nodes and not sending beacons for others to witness and earn rewards so you are only half participating in the network and shouldn’t be getting earnings as though you are fully operational. (edited)
I believe downlinks would still work since it should be a pull from PF and not push to PF but beacons will not because they rely on incoming p2p. Don’t quote me on the downlink part though, been a while since I looked at that traffic flow
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ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ
As more consumer grade routers start blocking incoming traffic by country (like Ubiquiti and others), how will this effect beaconing? Presumably even if port 44158 is open, if the challenger is in one of the blocked countries this will be a problem since the hotspot won't beacon. This will likely be less (or a non-issue) once Validators start issuing challenges...but in the meantime is this an issue?
We will just need to encourage users to use good routers instead of the garbage ones that block country traffic.
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Anunnaaki
We will just need to encourage users to use good routers instead of the garbage ones that block country traffic.
ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ 10/16/2021 10:12 AM
These kind of blocking rules routers will only become more prevalent for home users as manufacturers of “premium” hardware improve the security of their devices. I’m talking about the consumer routers like Eero, Ubiquiti, etc.
10:13
Long term there really should be no need to open port 44158 with light hotspot support. And there are alternative ways of signaling devices that don’t really on opening connections directly back to hotspots from external IPs.
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ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ
These kind of blocking rules routers will only become more prevalent for home users as manufacturers of “premium” hardware improve the security of their devices. I’m talking about the consumer routers like Eero, Ubiquiti, etc.
My eero routers don’t do any of this blocking you speak of.
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ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ
These kind of blocking rules routers will only become more prevalent for home users as manufacturers of “premium” hardware improve the security of their devices. I’m talking about the consumer routers like Eero, Ubiquiti, etc.
placebo)🇨🇦 10/16/2021 10:14 AM
I have an Asus router and love it. My dad has eero and we had a hell of time with it. He spent close to a week trying to find out why one tv couldn't talk to the other even though it was connected to internet. Dumb (edited)
10:15
Also some ISP's put you behind a double NAT. If thats your only option for a provider what do you do? (edited)
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placebo)🇨🇦
Also some ISP's put you behind a double NAT. If thats your only option for a provider what do you do? (edited)
You buy a business account to get your own IP and control of your own NAT.
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Anunnaaki
My eero routers don’t do any of this blocking you speak of.
ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ 10/16/2021 10:18 AM
Correct eero does not support country blocklists yet, but it has been a consistent feature request to eero. It is a feature I expect to see in eero Labs at some point.
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Anunnaaki
You buy a business account to get your own IP and control of your own NAT.
ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ 10/16/2021 10:19 AM
That really isn’t an option for a large portion of people, especially as you get outside of a city.
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ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ
That really isn’t an option for a large portion of people, especially as you get outside of a city.
You don’t need to live inside a city to call your ISP and pay extra to get a business grade account.
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ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ
Correct eero does not support country blocklists yet, but it has been a consistent feature request to eero. It is a feature I expect to see in eero Labs at some point.
This would be a user configurable feature request. The users could simply not block other countries if they want their miner to function correctly. (edited)
10:23
I have also been unable to find anything relating to users requesting to block entire countries in their router. So I don’t think this is as common as you say (edited)
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placebo)🇨🇦 10/16/2021 12:40 PM
Care to elaborate?
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Banshee1971 10/16/2021 1:18 PM
I agree.. I found out in my HEX, 2 hotspots that are offline (one never got any HNT since the begining.. and it's offline since then). That increase the count in the HEX (one 1 many now). I seem that there is no mecanism to remove non-existant hotspot....
13:19
While i was waiting my bobcat, i install my outside antenna, LMR400 cabling, UPS setup, and of course, WiredLAN ! (no wifi).. and already setup the router with fixed IP + port forward... so the day i receive everything, it was realy.. plug-n-play !
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/16/2021 1:39 PM
This is not the case at all. You would only get limited of you're cheating or have a really bad setup. Legitimate high earning hotspots would not be affected.
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Offline hotspots are ignored from transmit scale calculations
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/16/2021 1:57 PM
You can test that theory with the calc that was set up. We have not seen evidence that supports that theory. :)
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Believe it’s 2-3 days worth of blocks. Definitely not a big deal
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/16/2021 2:03 PM
Clever smoke raven, if it's still active
14:04
On a roof doing an install now. Replies will be delayed. ;)
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placebo)🇨🇦 10/16/2021 2:57 PM
The way I see it is, it’s very unbalanced in the fact that someone in a smaller town can spend hundreds of dollars on antenna and equipment to get theirs up as high as possible (some in my area 55m) and make like 1-1.2HNT/day. Then someone in a big city with a sea of hotspots around them, can literally just plop theirs in their window without any regard for proper placement or anything like that and be rewarded 5,6,7+ HNT/day solely because there’s so many hotspots around them that this persons hotspot who put zero effort into deploying it strategically gets beaconed every 15-30 minutes yet they have zero or almost zero on their witness list.
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Carl-bot BOT 10/16/2021 2:57 PM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You can test that theory with the calc that was set up. We have not seen evidence that supports that theory. :)
Max - Just Max 10/16/2021 6:38 PM
I've already shown you a few of mine that are affected
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placebo)🇨🇦
The way I see it is, it’s very unbalanced in the fact that someone in a smaller town can spend hundreds of dollars on antenna and equipment to get theirs up as high as possible (some in my area 55m) and make like 1-1.2HNT/day. Then someone in a big city with a sea of hotspots around them, can literally just plop theirs in their window without any regard for proper placement or anything like that and be rewarded 5,6,7+ HNT/day solely because there’s so many hotspots around them that this persons hotspot who put zero effort into deploying it strategically gets beaconed every 15-30 minutes yet they have zero or almost zero on their witness list.
Technomania ERSIN 10/16/2021 7:20 PM
you are totally wrong
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I guess the question becomes, are a few of the top legitimate earners (edge cases) willing to sacrifice a little bit to prevent gaming that impacts the entire network?
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When does this one come to a vote?
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Anunnaaki
I guess the question becomes, are a few of the top legitimate earners (edge cases) willing to sacrifice a little bit to prevent gaming that impacts the entire network?
Jaytheblader 10/17/2021 12:42 AM
I doubt it very much, as for some reason there is a misconception that a gateway that witnesses hundreds of times a day offers more value to the network than the 2 or 3 hundred that it is surrounded by. The idea of unlimited rewards is what drives them to perfectly hone their gateways to witness as many other gateways as possible regardless of whether a node will ever use it or not.
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Jaytheblader
I doubt it very much, as for some reason there is a misconception that a gateway that witnesses hundreds of times a day offers more value to the network than the 2 or 3 hundred that it is surrounded by. The idea of unlimited rewards is what drives them to perfectly hone their gateways to witness as many other gateways as possible regardless of whether a node will ever use it or not.
Max - Just Max 10/17/2021 12:46 AM
Jay, you continually miss the point. Those gateways aren't witnessing 200 near by, they are witnessing hotspots within a 100 mile radius of them.
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Anunnaaki
I guess the question becomes, are a few of the top legitimate earners (edge cases) willing to sacrifice a little bit to prevent gaming that impacts the entire network?
Max - Just Max 10/17/2021 12:47 AM
As one of those top legitimate earners, no. If we continue to change the rules to clip the earnings of the top earners, I'll just work on another project or become an accountant again
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Max - Just Max
Jay, you continually miss the point. Those gateways aren't witnessing 200 near by, they are witnessing hotspots within a 100 mile radius of them.
Jaytheblader 10/17/2021 12:48 AM
So losing a few percent will cause you to pick up your bat and ball and go?
00:49
Or are we talking significant numbers here?
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Jaytheblader
So losing a few percent will cause you to pick up your bat and ball and go?
Max - Just Max 10/17/2021 12:50 AM
I work 18 hour days, 7 days per week to get hotspots on mountains and towers. I'm not putting in that effort to build out a network that doesn't reward that work
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00:50
It's 3 am on a Saturday night and I'm working
00:51
I'll leave my hotspots up and just have it be passive income. If it goes offline, they'll just sit there, whatever
00:52
That's the attitude you are creating with these ideas. Frankly, I don't think it really matters anymore anyway because we can just have our earnings clipped by chainvars anyway
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Max - Just Max
I work 18 hour days, 7 days per week to get hotspots on mountains and towers. I'm not putting in that effort to build out a network that doesn't reward that work
Jaytheblader 10/17/2021 12:52 AM
I’m still yet to see the numbers on gateways that are setup with decent networks that are witnessed by others that are heavily clipped.
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Max - Just Max 10/17/2021 12:53 AM
High Teal Wallaby is clipped by the chain var limiting witnessing
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00:55
Open ports, great set up, has its rewards scaled back on a beacon with 2 other witnesses because it witnessed an arbitrary number of beacons with 18 witnesses during an arbitrary period
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00:58
Looks good to me, plenty of headroom 🤷‍♂️
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Max - Just Max 10/17/2021 1:03 AM
So for example, setting the exclusion to 4 would mean your first 4 witness events per epoch would be at full value and the exponential decay woulds only kick in for the 5th reward and above. Exampl...
01:03
That one gets clipped by this
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Jaytheblader 10/17/2021 1:04 AM
Sorry im not interested in that, hip 42 is all I really care about as it makes sense to me.
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Jaytheblader
Sorry im not interested in that, hip 42 is all I really care about as it makes sense to me.
Max - Just Max 10/17/2021 1:05 AM
I'm just referring to the overarching theme of things that limit rewards in response to the question "I guess the question becomes, are a few of the top legitimate earners (edge cases) willing to sacrifice a little bit to prevent gaming that impacts the entire network?"
01:06
Is there a way to run a wallet or 10 through @Anthonyra's checker?
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Max - Just Max
Is there a way to run a wallet or 10 through @Anthonyra's checker?
Jaytheblader 10/17/2021 1:31 AM
Not sure, but it would be great to run the tool over the entire network and see how many are affected and to what degree, my guess is that those that are affected will either be obviously cheating or have network connections that work well for witnessing but not for beaconing.
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Max - Just Max
I'm just referring to the overarching theme of things that limit rewards in response to the question "I guess the question becomes, are a few of the top legitimate earners (edge cases) willing to sacrifice a little bit to prevent gaming that impacts the entire network?"
Jaytheblader 10/17/2021 1:32 AM
Personally I’m not a big fan of the reward decay as it does nothing about the issue of hotspots that don’t fully participate in POC by not beaconing. (edited)
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I think setups that optimize witnessing to a crazy degree aren’t participating as intended. Especially if those people were using hardware such as an LNA to boost that imbalance. If this change can bring more people to provide the coverage needs by the network then I’m all for it.
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@Jaytheblader I agree, the hotspots earning a lot of HNT are hotspots that never send out any beacons and they constantly have zero Witnesses on their witness list.
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Carl-bot BOT 10/17/2021 7:12 AM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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Deleted User 10/17/2021 8:51 AM
I like the premise of HIP42 but perhaps it doesn't need to punish those with legit excellent set-ups in dense areas (as transmit scale already does that). Let's say hotspot A has a "rewardable_witness_capacity" of x (new chain var), where x is the avg/median no. of witnesses of hotspot A's beacons in some time period (e.g. 10,800 blocks or 7 days) multiplied by some factor y. "rewardable_witness_capacity" is depleted with each beacon that hotspot A witnesses until it reaches 0 (at which point hotspot A would no longer be eligible for witness rewards), but x is then replenished when it beacons again. This would drastically curtail or even eliminate the witnessing rewards of hotspots with little to no beaconing. "Some factor" y would be >1, but a precise figure would need to be evaluated. (edited)
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Jaytheblader
Personally I’m not a big fan of the reward decay as it does nothing about the issue of hotspots that don’t fully participate in POC by not beaconing. (edited)
IMO many parallel improvements have to be made. They aren’t exclusive
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Deleted User
I like the premise of HIP42 but perhaps it doesn't need to punish those with legit excellent set-ups in dense areas (as transmit scale already does that). Let's say hotspot A has a "rewardable_witness_capacity" of x (new chain var), where x is the avg/median no. of witnesses of hotspot A's beacons in some time period (e.g. 10,800 blocks or 7 days) multiplied by some factor y. "rewardable_witness_capacity" is depleted with each beacon that hotspot A witnesses until it reaches 0 (at which point hotspot A would no longer be eligible for witness rewards), but x is then replenished when it beacons again. This would drastically curtail or even eliminate the witnessing rewards of hotspots with little to no beaconing. "Some factor" y would be >1, but a precise figure would need to be evaluated. (edited)
That’s essentially what this proposal intends to do but was implemented by means that exist or already existed at some point. With lots of wiggle room and built in buffer…
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Anthonyra
That’s essentially what this proposal intends to do but was implemented by means that exist or already existed at some point. With lots of wiggle room and built in buffer…
Deleted User 10/17/2021 9:23 AM
I agree, and think it's a solid proposal, however does it punish gamers enough? By your own example, Rough Chili Bird would still be capable of witnessing an above average number of hotspots. Also, by virtue of potentially impacting the rewards of hotspot earners in dense regions, it's likely to concern a majority of owners.
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Deleted User
I agree, and think it's a solid proposal, however does it punish gamers enough? By your own example, Rough Chili Bird would still be capable of witnessing an above average number of hotspots. Also, by virtue of potentially impacting the rewards of hotspot earners in dense regions, it's likely to concern a majority of owners.
I wouldn’t say that it would allow for above average at all if anything is less forgiving than it could be. For example the basis boils down to how close to bidirectional communication can there be? The wits list shows all the hotspots that can hear the hotspot in question. In an ideal world all of those hotspots should be able to beacon to it also. Which based off of ideal situations means that for every witness you could hear 6 beacons a day from it back. This however isn’t the case and due to the average beacons over the network being 3 and not the max of 6 there’s a compensation factor that multiples the number by 2 to increase it. The primary goal of this is to ensure that all participants need to both beacon and witness to earn from PoC the current reward structure and system favors those who only witness and witness a lot. As a secondary it’ll bring those “gaming” right now to a halt until they figure out how to beacon to ensure the wits counts they’re currently getting. At that point I argue they’re providing the coverage that helium needs or they’ll just stop (edited)
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Anthonyra
I wouldn’t say that it would allow for above average at all if anything is less forgiving than it could be. For example the basis boils down to how close to bidirectional communication can there be? The wits list shows all the hotspots that can hear the hotspot in question. In an ideal world all of those hotspots should be able to beacon to it also. Which based off of ideal situations means that for every witness you could hear 6 beacons a day from it back. This however isn’t the case and due to the average beacons over the network being 3 and not the max of 6 there’s a compensation factor that multiples the number by 2 to increase it. The primary goal of this is to ensure that all participants need to both beacon and witness to earn from PoC the current reward structure and system favors those who only witness and witness a lot. As a secondary it’ll bring those “gaming” right now to a halt until they figure out how to beacon to ensure the wits counts they’re currently getting. At that point I argue they’re providing the coverage that helium needs or they’ll just stop (edited)
Deleted User 10/17/2021 9:37 AM
I hear you! Well I'll leave my thoughts here as a point of discussion. All the best with the proposal! (edited)
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Deleted User
I hear you! Well I'll leave my thoughts here as a point of discussion. All the best with the proposal! (edited)
I appreciate it honestly! Just wanted to elaborate on some of the reasons for things in the proposal. I think what you mentioned is simply an alternative way of implementing it via the code.
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capcom
IMO many parallel improvements have to be made. They aren’t exclusive
Max - Just Max 10/17/2021 12:35 PM
This reduces the incentive to place hotspots on towers that can cover a 100 mile radius.
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Max - Just Max
This reduces the incentive to place hotspots on towers that can cover a 100 mile radius.
I disagree
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capcom
I disagree
Max - Just Max 10/17/2021 12:43 PM
I spend time and USD to place hotspots on towers in exchange for a fake currency you invented 4 years ago. I am less incentivized as a result of the chain var that reduces my earnings based on witnessing an arbitrary number of beacons in an arbitrary amount of time.
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I understand you feel that way. I’m not sure why it was relevant to mention a fake currency, but whatever helps make your point
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capcom
I understand you feel that way. I’m not sure why it was relevant to mention a fake currency, but whatever helps make your point
Max - Just Max 10/17/2021 12:57 PM
Are you offended I called it a fake currency? That wasn’t my intent. The point is 4 years ago, it was cost prohibitive to place LoRaWan gateways in the same locations the telcos place their radios. Now we have people who have bought in to the point where we left our careers do this as our full time jobs. Now we’re getting a pay cut because we’re doing too good of a job and it’s being done via a chainvar that I have no control of.
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If you don’t like the HIP then vote no for it or propose a new one. That’s how the process works. I don’t agree with your assessment after looking at the witness and beacon rates of various hotspots, and don’t think this has any negative effect for honest miners. I could be wrong, but I haven’t seen any data supporting the opposite case
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Max - Just Max 10/17/2021 1:01 PM
Are we talking about HIP-42 or the reward decay chain var? This is what I was talking about with Jay last night https://github.com/helium/blockchain-core/pull/1034
So for example, setting the exclusion to 4 would mean your first 4 witness events per epoch would be at full value and the exponential decay woulds only kick in for the 5th reward and above. Exampl...
13:03
The deployed code you linked to does nothing without a supporting chain variable, which is what the new HIP proposes
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capcom
The deployed code you linked to does nothing without a supporting chain variable, which is what the new HIP proposes
Max - Just Max 10/17/2021 1:11 PM
Is there a dedicated channel for that one yet? Since this channel started with 3 proposals it creeps back into the discussion.
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I don’t think so yet
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capcom
IMO many parallel improvements have to be made. They aren’t exclusive
Jaytheblader 10/17/2021 1:32 PM
Point taken, i do hope that if reward decay is introduced due to the code already being there we don’t lose interest in beacon witness ratio though.
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Jaytheblader
Point taken, i do hope that if reward decay is introduced due to the code already being there we don’t lose interest in beacon witness ratio though.
My only concern with the witness decay is that HIP15 also has its own witness decay to it also
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Anthonyra
My only concern with the witness decay is that HIP15 also has its own witness decay to it also
Jaytheblader 10/17/2021 3:54 PM
It will make it confusing for some to work out what is scaling them and by how much. When I say I'm not a big fan of reward decay it doesn't mean I oppose it, its more that I really like HIP42 and want to see it implemented as soon as possible without distractions. My main reason for liking it so much is it puts a focus on the complete functionality of a gateway and not only the part that earns the most, and it does this by tying it all together, if validators were not going to be taking over the challenge role I would have suggested including that in the ratio also. (edited)
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capcom
If you don’t like the HIP then vote no for it or propose a new one. That’s how the process works. I don’t agree with your assessment after looking at the witness and beacon rates of various hotspots, and don’t think this has any negative effect for honest miners. I could be wrong, but I haven’t seen any data supporting the opposite case
theskywatcher 10/17/2021 4:18 PM
@Max - Just Max More than voting no is to raise awareness of the hip. Votes only numbered in the hundreds on the redenomination hip. Doesn’t take many to swing that vote. Just make sure they understand what but hey are voting for.
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I like this HIP a lot and I think it has a good secondary utility of reducing needless chain bloat from over-witnessing. Hard to think about exactly how this would affect that but it does raise an interesting question: What's the maximum amount of useful witnesses for a hotspot per day? I would say it's definitely less than 100
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And a follow-up: Any thought on limiting the amount of unique witnesses per day? Not sure how much value is being provided by a hotspot witnessing another one 3-6 times in the same day
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rawrmaan
I like this HIP a lot and I think it has a good secondary utility of reducing needless chain bloat from over-witnessing. Hard to think about exactly how this would affect that but it does raise an interesting question: What's the maximum amount of useful witnesses for a hotspot per day? I would say it's definitely less than 100
Max - Just Max 10/18/2021 12:30 AM
If someone wants to put a hotspot in a satellite and shoot it up to space, is that something we’d want to discourage?
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Max - Just Max
If someone wants to put a hotspot in a satellite and shoot it up to space, is that something we’d want to discourage?
Yes? One hotspot in space would be useless to the network. Even if it could receive packets, it would be useless for downlinks because of how LoRaWAN works. That’s actually a perfect example of a bad deployment that this HIP would discourage
00:49
If you’re deploying to maximize rewards under the current PoC scheme, you’re going to have a bad time. PoC changes regularly (we are on v10) with the goal of incentivizing useful coverage. If you deploy useful coverage, PoC iterations will follow you and you will win more over time. It really is that simple (edited)
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rawrmaan
Yes? One hotspot in space would be useless to the network. Even if it could receive packets, it would be useless for downlinks because of how LoRaWAN works. That’s actually a perfect example of a bad deployment that this HIP would discourage
Max - Just Max 10/18/2021 1:57 AM
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rawrmaan
If you’re deploying to maximize rewards under the current PoC scheme, you’re going to have a bad time. PoC changes regularly (we are on v10) with the goal of incentivizing useful coverage. If you deploy useful coverage, PoC iterations will follow you and you will win more over time. It really is that simple (edited)
Max - Just Max 10/18/2021 2:10 AM
Most of the early changes were to compensate for memory issues and increase block times. The biggest change was from V8 to V9 which went from hops to our current system. V9 to V10 was a small change so basically we’ve been operating under the same POC system for more than half the life of the blockchain. Can you please provide more clarity to what you are trying to say or was that just a flippant remark because you think I’m new or something? I'm legitimately very confused by the point you are trying to make. Are you trying to say that having a perfectly optimized set up in the summer of 2020 is somehow going to earn less HNT over the life of that hotspot than a perfectly optimized set up for creating useful coverage today? Besides the fact that's unequivocally false, is your position that professionally installed towers are somehow not providing useful coverage for the network? Aren't you "strategically asserting" Fairspot hotspots to maximize rewards under POCv10? Are you having a bad time? (edited)
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Once again, this isn’t Witness Decay and it’s not intended to limit great setups and I’m not simply talking about towers that can see 100 miles being great setups. A great setup in my eyes is one that has balance between beaconing and witnesses. To be 100% honest there is a limit to how useful witnesses are but the data analysis isn’t there to support my gut feeling about it. It’s like someone checking on an ice cube in the freezer. If the freezer is working properly do you need to check it every 30 minutes (if not what about multiple times every 30 minutes?) the only reason that would be a yes is if you got paid to do it. But what business would do that? I argue that to make the network better the system in this case PoC needs to be better for the sake of coverage (edited)
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Anthonyra
Once again, this isn’t Witness Decay and it’s not intended to limit great setups and I’m not simply talking about towers that can see 100 miles being great setups. A great setup in my eyes is one that has balance between beaconing and witnesses. To be 100% honest there is a limit to how useful witnesses are but the data analysis isn’t there to support my gut feeling about it. It’s like someone checking on an ice cube in the freezer. If the freezer is working properly do you need to check it every 30 minutes (if not what about multiple times every 30 minutes?) the only reason that would be a yes is if you got paid to do it. But what business would do that? I argue that to make the network better the system in this case PoC needs to be better for the sake of coverage (edited)
Max - Just Max 10/18/2021 7:33 AM
I only bring up witness decay in response to the people asking about witness decay. I try to reply directly to those comments to keep it organized. When the witness decay HIP channel is created, it should alleviate that. To your other point, it’s not worthwhile to check the SAME freezer multiple times every 30 minutes, but if one person can check different freezers in Kentucky, Ohio, and Indiana all within the same 30 minute span, that seems worthwhile.
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Max - Just Max
I only bring up witness decay in response to the people asking about witness decay. I try to reply directly to those comments to keep it organized. When the witness decay HIP channel is created, it should alleviate that. To your other point, it’s not worthwhile to check the SAME freezer multiple times every 30 minutes, but if one person can check different freezers in Kentucky, Ohio, and Indiana all within the same 30 minute span, that seems worthwhile.
Ah, well it wasn't directly pointed at you but for those that don't want to back scroll I wanted to emphasize my side. Well, maybe? The thing that still gets me is that PoC is meant to simulate the likelihood that a device can get coverage. If there's a hotspot closer to that device than your hotspot the closer hotspot in theory will move the devices data. Because even though PoC is now not First Come First Served (FCFS) the device data is. The difference is important though for reasons that you've brought up before and that's RF is a fickle thing. The wits list was used for a different purpose back during multi-hop PoC. However, now we need to get a better view of the network while not causing the blockchain to explode in size. For example, the best approach would be to simply allow all witnesses to be part of a PoC receipt and not filter them. However, with the full chain exceeding 2TB is size and is increasing exponentially there's a fine line we need to balance... however, as it currently sits the blockchain is the truth. WE can only see what it shows. So more wits is better for data analysis than a stale list based on FCFS. TLDR; If there's no hotspots between yours and the ones in Kentucky, Ohio, and Indiana then yes I agree it's helpful. But if there is others than probably not... (edited)
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Max - Just Max 10/18/2021 8:03 AM
In terms of first come first serve, the extra distance, call it 30-40 miles is a difference of nanoseconds, whereas the backhaul is milliseconds so I’d argue professional installs connected via Ethernet to fiber connections create a lower latency network. As far as the TLDR, currently there aren’t very many and the ones that are don’t cover a very large area due to their height. Considering supply chain issues and chip shortage, I’d argue strategically placed hotspots with large coverage areas will help the LoRaWAN network far more in the short term and should be rewarded for that. Again, not this HIP, but witness decay doesn’t really do anything because either A: The same number of reward units are apportioned to that beacon it the saturated so the reward just shifts from one person confirming redundant coverage in Chicago to a different guy in Chicago. Or B: The chain has to calculate witness 1 received X reward units and witness 2 received .5X reward units, adding more bloat to the chain.
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That’s LoRa, but not LoRaWAN. You can’t just plug and play a satellite based hotspot into the Helium network, it wouldn’t work
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rawrmaan
That’s LoRa, but not LoRaWAN. You can’t just plug and play a satellite based hotspot into the Helium network, it wouldn’t work
Max - Just Max 10/18/2021 8:36 AM
Why not? Low earth orbit can be as low as 150-200km, well within the range of 900 MHz. (edited)
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Max - Just Max
Why not? Low earth orbit can be as low as 150-200km, well within the range of 900 MHz. (edited)
Because of the LoRaWAN downlink window(s). Even if you did deploy an LEO satellite, it wouldn’t create useful coverage because it would be so overwhelmed with packets that it would serve a tiny amount of downlinks compared to uplinks. You can only have a hotspot cover so many devices before it gets totally saturated and can no longer provide downlinks. I’ve tested this myself
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Max - Just Max
Most of the early changes were to compensate for memory issues and increase block times. The biggest change was from V8 to V9 which went from hops to our current system. V9 to V10 was a small change so basically we’ve been operating under the same POC system for more than half the life of the blockchain. Can you please provide more clarity to what you are trying to say or was that just a flippant remark because you think I’m new or something? I'm legitimately very confused by the point you are trying to make. Are you trying to say that having a perfectly optimized set up in the summer of 2020 is somehow going to earn less HNT over the life of that hotspot than a perfectly optimized set up for creating useful coverage today? Besides the fact that's unequivocally false, is your position that professionally installed towers are somehow not providing useful coverage for the network? Aren't you "strategically asserting" Fairspot hotspots to maximize rewards under POCv10? Are you having a bad time? (edited)
That’s not true. V4, 5, 6 and 7 made tons of changes that affected which hotspots were targeted, which witnesses were considered valid, how next hop was chosen, etc. Multiple times well-earning setups have been reduced by 90+% because they were over-earning vs. the value they provided. I expect that to happen again in the future. I’m not saying that you’ll earn less over the life of the hotspot (you’ll probably earn more based on how fast earnings decay these days) but just that your earnings may be slashed massively in the future. Strategically asserting hotspots has an overall small effect on earnings—placement in areas with high reward scale and good topography is far more important. Of course tower coverage is great. I’m just trying to point out that I don’t think hotspots with 250+ witnesses should be disproportionately rewarded. They will be rewarded handsomely once more devices roll out to the network. In the meantime, we should redistribute their outsized earnings to incentivize buildout in non-covered areas.
08:48
250 isn’t an exact number either. I’d say even 50 or 100 is likely overkill
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rawrmaan
That’s not true. V4, 5, 6 and 7 made tons of changes that affected which hotspots were targeted, which witnesses were considered valid, how next hop was chosen, etc. Multiple times well-earning setups have been reduced by 90+% because they were over-earning vs. the value they provided. I expect that to happen again in the future. I’m not saying that you’ll earn less over the life of the hotspot (you’ll probably earn more based on how fast earnings decay these days) but just that your earnings may be slashed massively in the future. Strategically asserting hotspots has an overall small effect on earnings—placement in areas with high reward scale and good topography is far more important. Of course tower coverage is great. I’m just trying to point out that I don’t think hotspots with 250+ witnesses should be disproportionately rewarded. They will be rewarded handsomely once more devices roll out to the network. In the meantime, we should redistribute their outsized earnings to incentivize buildout in non-covered areas.
Max - Just Max 10/18/2021 9:09 AM
I think it’s far more likely someone who earns a lot of HNT placing on towers and high rises reinvests those earnings to build out coverage in rural areas than people in rural areas deciding to be lone wolves to earn a tiny amount of crypto and hope that more people move in. I’m on planes every week going to tier C cities to build out the network in places that people don’t seem to want to build coverage in yet. Reducing that incentive arbitrarily causes community members like me to stop caring as much and stop reinvesting in the network. I could easily just move to Colorado and go rock climbing all day living off of my HNT but I’m choosing to drive 3 hours each way to Waco, TX this week to fill in gaps between Austin and Dallas then getting on a plane to West Palm Beach, then driving 90 minutes to Okeechobee to meet with a group that wants coverage so they can move their IOT devices over to the Helium network. The decay HIP isn’t creating the incentive you think it’s creating, in fact, it’s doing the opposite.
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Max - Just Max
I think it’s far more likely someone who earns a lot of HNT placing on towers and high rises reinvests those earnings to build out coverage in rural areas than people in rural areas deciding to be lone wolves to earn a tiny amount of crypto and hope that more people move in. I’m on planes every week going to tier C cities to build out the network in places that people don’t seem to want to build coverage in yet. Reducing that incentive arbitrarily causes community members like me to stop caring as much and stop reinvesting in the network. I could easily just move to Colorado and go rock climbing all day living off of my HNT but I’m choosing to drive 3 hours each way to Waco, TX this week to fill in gaps between Austin and Dallas then getting on a plane to West Palm Beach, then driving 90 minutes to Okeechobee to meet with a group that wants coverage so they can move their IOT devices over to the Helium network. The decay HIP isn’t creating the incentive you think it’s creating, in fact, it’s doing the opposite.
There’s always going to be winners and losers with any change. I’m glad you’re sharing this though because I see your concerns about your operation. You are literally in the minority (because you’re doing exceptional work)—I don’t think you should be massively penalized. I doubt your deployments would even be penalized by this HIP if they are how you describe. This is more about penalizing absurd redundant coverage in LA, Manhattan, etc. that are truly providing no additional value
09:17
Should you be rewarded handsomely for going from 0-25 witnesses? Yes. From 50-250? In my opinion, there should be no extra reward for that
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rawrmaan
Should you be rewarded handsomely for going from 0-25 witnesses? Yes. From 50-250? In my opinion, there should be no extra reward for that
Max - Just Max 10/18/2021 9:21 AM
HIP-17 already scales that down if you are covering a small area. I think 50-250 if we’re talking a 100 mile radius (which like 10% of my spots have) there should be. I don’t disagree with the overall theme that redundant confirmation isn’t necessary, I think further reducing the reward scale of areas that are over saturated under HIP-17 is the better mechanism.
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Max - Just Max
HIP-17 already scales that down if you are covering a small area. I think 50-250 if we’re talking a 100 mile radius (which like 10% of my spots have) there should be. I don’t disagree with the overall theme that redundant confirmation isn’t necessary, I think further reducing the reward scale of areas that are over saturated under HIP-17 is the better mechanism.
Problem is HIP 17 can only go far since it only focuses on transmit scale. There are many hotspots in NYC skyscrapers that can witness stuff deep in NY and NJ. They’re picking up beacons with high transmit scales and earning a lot, but not providing much extra value
09:25
But for the record, yes, I do support adjusting HIP 17 as well. Dense areas are clearly over-rewarded.
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rawrmaan
Problem is HIP 17 can only go far since it only focuses on transmit scale. There are many hotspots in NYC skyscrapers that can witness stuff deep in NY and NJ. They’re picking up beacons with high transmit scales and earning a lot, but not providing much extra value
Max - Just Max 10/18/2021 9:26 AM
Well HIP-15 decays the value of witnessing those beacons. Regardless of whether or not the guy on 15th floor or the guy on 10th floor witnesses it, it’s still the same reward units
09:29
We need to think in terms of reducing the number of reward units in over saturated areas and not in terms of arbitrary numbers being too many beacons to witness. Fixed numbers don’t scale with the growth of the network nor with the changing challenge construction times. Witnessing 50 beacons when challenge construction happens every 300 blocks vs 30 blocks are 2 completely different things.
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Max - Just Max
I think it’s far more likely someone who earns a lot of HNT placing on towers and high rises reinvests those earnings to build out coverage in rural areas than people in rural areas deciding to be lone wolves to earn a tiny amount of crypto and hope that more people move in. I’m on planes every week going to tier C cities to build out the network in places that people don’t seem to want to build coverage in yet. Reducing that incentive arbitrarily causes community members like me to stop caring as much and stop reinvesting in the network. I could easily just move to Colorado and go rock climbing all day living off of my HNT but I’m choosing to drive 3 hours each way to Waco, TX this week to fill in gaps between Austin and Dallas then getting on a plane to West Palm Beach, then driving 90 minutes to Okeechobee to meet with a group that wants coverage so they can move their IOT devices over to the Helium network. The decay HIP isn’t creating the incentive you think it’s creating, in fact, it’s doing the opposite.
ProfiGembler 10/18/2021 10:28 AM
than stop and go climbing...all ur talk is literally just asking for more money,than u actually earning right now...nobody is forcing u to install miners,and network is already big enough that even if em.rit quits,its not gonna change a lot...so feel free to find another "fake curency" if u dont like this one
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ProfiGembler
than stop and go climbing...all ur talk is literally just asking for more money,than u actually earning right now...nobody is forcing u to install miners,and network is already big enough that even if em.rit quits,its not gonna change a lot...so feel free to find another "fake curency" if u dont like this one
Max - Just Max 10/18/2021 10:41 AM
Never asked for more money… I have no problem with this “fake currency,” just the idea of one size fits all scaling down of rewards that doesn’t take into account the amount of area covered.
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Max - Just Max
Never asked for more money… I have no problem with this “fake currency,” just the idea of one size fits all scaling down of rewards that doesn’t take into account the amount of area covered.
ProfiGembler 10/18/2021 10:45 AM
I understand that u think u should have appropriate returns based on ur investment...but u really cant ask for whole network to change just because of u...also,u already are in advantage if ur hotspots cover big areas,cause u r witnessing more than those with poor setups
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ProfiGembler
I understand that u think u should have appropriate returns based on ur investment...but u really cant ask for whole network to change just because of u...also,u already are in advantage if ur hotspots cover big areas,cause u r witnessing more than those with poor setups
Max - Just Max 10/18/2021 10:47 AM
I’m asking for the network to not change though…
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Max - Just Max
I’m asking for the network to not change though…
ProfiGembler 10/18/2021 10:48 AM
oh so u dont like poc11 even if u dont know what will change,if anything?
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ProfiGembler
oh so u dont like poc11 even if u dont know what will change,if anything?
Max - Just Max 10/18/2021 10:50 AM
No? We’re not talking about POC 11. We’re talking about a HIP (not this HIP but they are somewhat related and were proposed together in the original channel) that would reduce the rewards for the 5th beacon witnessed in an epoch. (edited)
10:51
I’m also not against the spirit of what that HIP is proposing, I’m just saying there is a better way of achieving that goal
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@Max - Just Max Can you donate some of that fake money to me please? I am poor.
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10:53
I mean, I will still be poor. Cuz its all fake
10:53
But still.
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Max - Just Max
No? We’re not talking about POC 11. We’re talking about a HIP (not this HIP but they are somewhat related and were proposed together in the original channel) that would reduce the rewards for the 5th beacon witnessed in an epoch. (edited)
ProfiGembler 10/18/2021 10:54 AM
u do realise that hips are community driven? so basically if u want to make ur hotspot to earn 100hnt a day, u just write a hip,and if enough people vote for it,than u will be even more rich 😂 but in the end helium team decides after all,so I believe they will never do anything that is bad for their precious 😀
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Fizzy
@Max - Just Max Can you donate some of that fake money to me please? I am poor.
Max - Just Max 10/18/2021 10:57 AM
Seems like something you should have asked your boss for when you hung up on me to take his call 😂
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rawrmaan
Problem is HIP 17 can only go far since it only focuses on transmit scale. There are many hotspots in NYC skyscrapers that can witness stuff deep in NY and NJ. They’re picking up beacons with high transmit scales and earning a lot, but not providing much extra value
I agree with this.
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It’s a fundamental issue of what actually provides value to the network vs what people are optimizing to maximize profits. The two need to be in alignment and this HIP brings us closer to that alignment. While this may upset some individuals good at profit optimizing, this will encourage the buildout of the actual coverage the network needs.
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Anunnaaki
It’s a fundamental issue of what actually provides value to the network vs what people are optimizing to maximize profits. The two need to be in alignment and this HIP brings us closer to that alignment. While this may upset some individuals good at profit optimizing, this will encourage the buildout of the actual coverage the network needs.
This sums it up well.
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True but I could deploy a lot of hotspots in the desert and add a lot of coverage area. But that wouldn't be the kind of coverage the network actually needs though
12:02
When more and more devices come online and start using the network, they will likely be in dense areas no?
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Anunnaaki
It’s a fundamental issue of what actually provides value to the network vs what people are optimizing to maximize profits. The two need to be in alignment and this HIP brings us closer to that alignment. While this may upset some individuals good at profit optimizing, this will encourage the buildout of the actual coverage the network needs.
Max - Just Max 10/18/2021 12:03 PM
And I would argue being able to optimize and maximize profits results in more money being invested back into the network. I've raised hundreds of thousands of dollars that otherwise wouldn't have been invested into the network based on the idea that I can get people a huge return on a crypto project they hadn't heard of before I presented it to them.
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Max - Just Max
And I would argue being able to optimize and maximize profits results in more money being invested back into the network. I've raised hundreds of thousands of dollars that otherwise wouldn't have been invested into the network based on the idea that I can get people a huge return on a crypto project they hadn't heard of before I presented it to them.
The returns will still be there. Just not obscene returns for a few hotspots. The returns will instead be more distributed among others participating in the network buildout which will lend well to decentralization. People are still motivated to purchase and set up hotspots. But perhaps well organized businesses milking every dollar out of a few hotspots won’t be as well off. (edited)
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Anunnaaki
The returns will still be there. Just not obscene returns for a few hotspots. The returns will instead be more distributed among others participating in the network buildout which will lend well to decentralization. People are still motivated to purchase and set up hotspots. But perhaps well organized businesses milking every dollar out of a few hotspots won’t be as well off. (edited)
Max - Just Max 10/18/2021 12:32 PM
In theory that makes sense. The problem is crypto isn't a great motivator in rural areas. There is also no motivation to be a lone wolf so for the few people that are incentivized by crypto in those areas, they are less likely to buy hotspots and expand the network in those areas.
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Max - Just Max
In theory that makes sense. The problem is crypto isn't a great motivator in rural areas. There is also no motivation to be a lone wolf so for the few people that are incentivized by crypto in those areas, they are less likely to buy hotspots and expand the network in those areas.
There is still motivation. This isn’t going to impact every hotspot. There are only a couple edge cases that will be impacted. They will still earn great rewards. Just not exorbitant rewards.
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Anunnaaki
There is still motivation. This isn’t going to impact every hotspot. There are only a couple edge cases that will be impacted. They will still earn great rewards. Just not exorbitant rewards.
Max - Just Max 10/18/2021 12:55 PM
3 HNT per day isn’t exorbitant
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Max - Just Max
3 HNT per day isn’t exorbitant
I think that's pretty good when the average per day is at 0.27 HNT...
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Anthonyra
I think that's pretty good when the average per day is at 0.27 HNT...
Max - Just Max 10/18/2021 1:15 PM
The average hotspot is in a 3rd floor Manhattan apartment with 30 other hotspots in the same Res 8. We’re also not talking about HIP-42 right now. Just the overall theme of limiting rewards outside of how HIPS-15 and 17 limit them (edited)
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3 HNT today is great when compared to the average.. if you took the 240k hotspots on chain today and just decided to give everyone the same same it would be only 0.20 HNT and I don't want to scare you but only 160k are being rewarded meaning there's probably 80k still syncing or having issues.. If you're not ready for another 33% decrease in your rewards simply because of that... well maybe the setups aren't lucrative anymore? I was also just saying 3HNT a day is really good (edited)
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Anthonyra
3 HNT today is great when compared to the average.. if you took the 240k hotspots on chain today and just decided to give everyone the same same it would be only 0.20 HNT and I don't want to scare you but only 160k are being rewarded meaning there's probably 80k still syncing or having issues.. If you're not ready for another 33% decrease in your rewards simply because of that... well maybe the setups aren't lucrative anymore? I was also just saying 3HNT a day is really good (edited)
Max - Just Max 10/18/2021 1:24 PM
I’ve modeled out earnings as more hotspots come online but that’s a necessary evil when it comes to building out a network. My rewards going down because more hotspots come online means the network is growing and good for the network. My rewards going down because of an arbitrary decision that it seems too high is something different. I raise money that gets invested directly into the network based on the idea that my locations all over the country earn a certain multiple of the average.
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I guess to bring it back, in regards to HIP-42 if you could post any objections or additions to the github page so it doesn't get lost here it'd be greatly appreciated. I also hope witness decay (HIP-41) channel arrives sooner than later..
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Max - Just Max
I’ve modeled out earnings as more hotspots come online but that’s a necessary evil when it comes to building out a network. My rewards going down because more hotspots come online means the network is growing and good for the network. My rewards going down because of an arbitrary decision that it seems too high is something different. I raise money that gets invested directly into the network based on the idea that my locations all over the country earn a certain multiple of the average.
Making business decisions based on projected future earnings is a horrible idea when it comes to Helium. Things are always changing. PoC changes often and soon the 5G bucket will be cutting into LoRaWAN PoC earnings in HIP 37 passes. The only constant is change
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Anthonyra
I guess to bring it back, in regards to HIP-42 if you could post any objections or additions to the github page so it doesn't get lost here it'd be greatly appreciated. I also hope witness decay (HIP-41) channel arrives sooner than later..
Max - Just Max 10/18/2021 1:29 PM
I think everything in my fleet affected by HIP-42 has been corrected by improving the set up. I have no real objections to this HIP anymore.
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The reality is the network doesn't care about your setup, it only cares about its own preservation and growth
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rawrmaan
Making business decisions based on projected future earnings is a horrible idea when it comes to Helium. Things are always changing. PoC changes often and soon the 5G bucket will be cutting into LoRaWAN PoC earnings in HIP 37 passes. The only constant is change
Max - Just Max 10/18/2021 1:32 PM
Since my models are based on the a projected multiple of the average, it’s insanely easy to model for 9% of the rewards going into a new bucket. It’s also incredibly easy to model for all of the DC bucket being used for DC. That’s actually the best case scenario because the BME really starts to kick in.
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Yeah, really hope that 5G drives DC usage up in a pretty serious way
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Max - Just Max 10/18/2021 1:33 PM
We’re all going after the same goal here. We just have a different opinion on how to create the best incentive to build out better coverage
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Indeed. May the best ideas win 🙂
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Anunnaaki
It’s a fundamental issue of what actually provides value to the network vs what people are optimizing to maximize profits. The two need to be in alignment and this HIP brings us closer to that alignment. While this may upset some individuals good at profit optimizing, this will encourage the buildout of the actual coverage the network needs.
Jaytheblader 10/18/2021 10:15 PM
This is exactly what I have been trying to say in my earlier comments. Well said. (edited)
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God Of Thunder 10/18/2021 11:27 PM
Can someone explain how hip 40 to affect units up on mountain ranges
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God Of Thunder
Can someone explain how hip 40 to affect units up on mountain ranges
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/18/2021 11:52 PM
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Referring to the conversation earlier about the value add to the network for hotspots on cell towers that have 100 mile wide coverage. Am I wrong that this is not particularly helpful because most sensors will not be broadcasting their signal at anywhere near the same power as our hotspots? As I understand it, sensors are going to broadcast only a few kilometers and presumably in an omni-directional signal pattern. If the sensor is broadcasting over water, then maybe the few kilometer range will be more. So it would seem to me that cell tower installs are fantastic for the first few years, but once DCs are the primary source of rewards they are going to be rather irrelevant. Do we have real world broadcast distances of the oyster sensor? Ensuring my comment is relevant to HIP42, what are, if any exist, the scenarios where a hotspot beacons and honestly gets zero witnesses each and every time but also witnesses a multitude of other hotspots?
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KeithR
Referring to the conversation earlier about the value add to the network for hotspots on cell towers that have 100 mile wide coverage. Am I wrong that this is not particularly helpful because most sensors will not be broadcasting their signal at anywhere near the same power as our hotspots? As I understand it, sensors are going to broadcast only a few kilometers and presumably in an omni-directional signal pattern. If the sensor is broadcasting over water, then maybe the few kilometer range will be more. So it would seem to me that cell tower installs are fantastic for the first few years, but once DCs are the primary source of rewards they are going to be rather irrelevant. Do we have real world broadcast distances of the oyster sensor? Ensuring my comment is relevant to HIP42, what are, if any exist, the scenarios where a hotspot beacons and honestly gets zero witnesses each and every time but also witnesses a multitude of other hotspots?
The likelihood from the data that I crunched that a hotspot that beacons results in a total of 0 over the course of 5 days is pretty low while attaining witness rewards. With that being said, that’s a hotspot being a legit setup. If you were to remove your antenna but utilize the current gaming theorized you could see tons of beacons at 0 with tons of witness rewards. With out valid beacons any future anti gaming based on them beaconing will not be successful..
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Max - Just Max 10/19/2021 9:09 AM
What happens when a hotspot gets reasserted? The plan is to have it send out multiple beacons in succession to build its witness list back up?
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Carl-bot BOT 10/19/2021 9:09 AM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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Max - Just Max
What happens when a hotspot gets reasserted? The plan is to have it send out multiple beacons in succession to build its witness list back up?
That's an option, the other is to simply have a minimum not 0 per day. The beacons would be more stringent whereas the minimum would be easier to implement.
09:12
The minimum could clip more witnesses also while the wits list is being built
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Max - Just Max 10/19/2021 9:19 AM
The multiple beacon option is easy to arbitrage. Let’s say I have 5-10 hotspots alone in a field in the middle of nowhere. Every reassert is $10 but every beacon assuming a 1.0 reward scale and all 4 witnesses on each would earn me ~.325 HNT with the current numbers. So if it forces 2 beacons it pays to just reassert all day. Even more so if changing height does this.
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I might be in the wrong 'thread' so apologies if that is the case. I have a recently deployed hotspot that is relayed (working to resolve this) however it have still witnessed several beacons, I thought this would show up under the 'Witnesses' tab still or am I completely mislead in this thinking? - Cheers L
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Loob
I might be in the wrong 'thread' so apologies if that is the case. I have a recently deployed hotspot that is relayed (working to resolve this) however it have still witnessed several beacons, I thought this would show up under the 'Witnesses' tab still or am I completely mislead in this thinking? - Cheers L
Max - Just Max 10/19/2021 9:23 AM
I’m assuming #poc-discussion is the place or #general but the witness list is a list of the hotspots that witnessed your beacons, not the hotspots you witnessed.
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Carl-bot BOT 10/19/2021 9:23 AM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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Max - Just Max
I’m assuming #poc-discussion is the place or #general but the witness list is a list of the hotspots that witnessed your beacons, not the hotspots you witnessed.
That very much makes more sense! Although I can see others that have witnessed our Hotspot but still isn't showing. I'll take the Q to one of the other threads you've listed, thanks!
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Max - Just Max
The multiple beacon option is easy to arbitrage. Let’s say I have 5-10 hotspots alone in a field in the middle of nowhere. Every reassert is $10 but every beacon assuming a 1.0 reward scale and all 4 witnesses on each would earn me ~.325 HNT with the current numbers. So if it forces 2 beacons it pays to just reassert all day. Even more so if changing height does this.
Oh those beacons wouldn't be rewarded for this reason. They were called test beacons back in the day when you needed a wits list to construct multi-hop poc
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Anthonyra
Oh those beacons wouldn't be rewarded for this reason. They were called test beacons back in the day when you needed a wits list to construct multi-hop poc
Max - Just Max 10/19/2021 9:55 AM
Is there a way to do test beacons for hotspots that are being limited? So say for whatever reason, a hotspot isn’t beaconing as much as it should, it gets a chance to prove that it could be providing downlinks if challenged more? I’m assuming thats going to add a bunch of bloat, just spitballing ideas here
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Max - Just Max
Is there a way to do test beacons for hotspots that are being limited? So say for whatever reason, a hotspot isn’t beaconing as much as it should, it gets a chance to prove that it could be providing downlinks if challenged more? I’m assuming thats going to add a bunch of bloat, just spitballing ideas here
It depends on how it's implemented. If you have the miner itself request the beacons it could be gamed unless it needs to be approved by the CG who would than choose a challenger to create the poc_request.. since these beacons would result in 0 rewards for beaconer and witnesses the question is should the challenger? I've been playing around with the idea of having a minimum beacon and maybe a guaranteed beacon mechanism but that's pre pre hip stages
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I'm thinking about calling those test beacons (the ones performed on assert) as baseline beacons. Which would be triggered by the assert txn on the CG side and will not be rewardable to the beaconer or witnesses. The challenger being randomly selected by CG could in theory be rewarded since it'd be hard to game that aspect. The next one would be the minimum beacon which is triggered again by the miner when it hasn't beaconed by a certain time. This would be sent to the CG to be verified (if they are eligible) then a challenger would be selected and then the beacon requested. All parties could be rewarded since the CG is the final say in if the hotspot has been unlucky enough to be targeted by the system. Guaranteed beacons could be based on the number of HNT staked to that hotspot. They'd simply allow the minimum number to increase based on staked amount. Pre-HIP example, for every 50 HNT (100 HNT would be equivalent to 365 days of average rewards currently) staked you'd increase your minimum count by 1 up to the max count of 6 (poc_interval/blocks a day). So to guarantee 6 beacons per day from a hotspot there'd need to be 250 HNT staked to that hotspot. All staking mechanics for validators would be used for these stakes also (ie 250k block cooldown) (edited)
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I couldn't pull off 250 HNT per hotspot...unless you are talking post re-denomination. But I do like the idea that the HNT is staked/delegated with the hotspot. If I had 1000 HNT, would I be better off putting 250 into four hotspots or 100 HNT into ten hotspots?
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Anthonyra
I'm thinking about calling those test beacons (the ones performed on assert) as baseline beacons. Which would be triggered by the assert txn on the CG side and will not be rewardable to the beaconer or witnesses. The challenger being randomly selected by CG could in theory be rewarded since it'd be hard to game that aspect. The next one would be the minimum beacon which is triggered again by the miner when it hasn't beaconed by a certain time. This would be sent to the CG to be verified (if they are eligible) then a challenger would be selected and then the beacon requested. All parties could be rewarded since the CG is the final say in if the hotspot has been unlucky enough to be targeted by the system. Guaranteed beacons could be based on the number of HNT staked to that hotspot. They'd simply allow the minimum number to increase based on staked amount. Pre-HIP example, for every 50 HNT (100 HNT would be equivalent to 365 days of average rewards currently) staked you'd increase your minimum count by 1 up to the max count of 6 (poc_interval/blocks a day). So to guarantee 6 beacons per day from a hotspot there'd need to be 250 HNT staked to that hotspot. All staking mechanics for validators would be used for these stakes also (ie 250k block cooldown) (edited)
Max - Just Max 10/19/2021 12:40 PM
Ooh I really like the staking idea in the sense that it’ll allow more people to stake HNT. I think it’s a bit high considering the average age of hotspots and I’m not a fan of the diminishing returns on staking more but there’s definitely something workable in that.
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KeithR
I couldn't pull off 250 HNT per hotspot...unless you are talking post re-denomination. But I do like the idea that the HNT is staked/delegated with the hotspot. If I had 1000 HNT, would I be better off putting 250 into four hotspots or 100 HNT into ten hotspots?
I think it would depend on where you’re building. If you own all the coverage you could get that 250 back quickly if all of your hotspots in that area beacon 6 times a day like clock work. If it’s too low than clusters or farms could leverage it compared to individuals building out an area for example
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Anthonyra
I think that's pretty good when the average per day is at 0.27 HNT...
maco2035 🐮 10/19/2021 1:30 PM
I remember the time that was being made in a block
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KeithR
Referring to the conversation earlier about the value add to the network for hotspots on cell towers that have 100 mile wide coverage. Am I wrong that this is not particularly helpful because most sensors will not be broadcasting their signal at anywhere near the same power as our hotspots? As I understand it, sensors are going to broadcast only a few kilometers and presumably in an omni-directional signal pattern. If the sensor is broadcasting over water, then maybe the few kilometer range will be more. So it would seem to me that cell tower installs are fantastic for the first few years, but once DCs are the primary source of rewards they are going to be rather irrelevant. Do we have real world broadcast distances of the oyster sensor? Ensuring my comment is relevant to HIP42, what are, if any exist, the scenarios where a hotspot beacons and honestly gets zero witnesses each and every time but also witnesses a multitude of other hotspots?
Jaytheblader 10/19/2021 1:35 PM
The oyster trackers on the garbage trucks in my city seem to get about 30km range, to my 8dbi on a hilltop. (edited)
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Jaytheblader
The oyster trackers on the garbage trucks in my city seem to get about 30km range, to my 8dbi on a hilltop. (edited)
maco2035 🐮 10/19/2021 1:37 PM
I really thing everyone really under estimates the range of lorawan. I legit get it throught a hill made out of limestone and clay. The range is insanse.
13:37
The hotspots should be imo about a mile a way each
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Anthonyra
That's an option, the other is to simply have a minimum not 0 per day. The beacons would be more stringent whereas the minimum would be easier to implement.
Jaytheblader 10/19/2021 1:38 PM
I really like the minimum idea as many hotspots take a week to really get going properly and if you set up a small town fresh you could get caught in a loop without it.
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maco2035 🐮
I really thing everyone really under estimates the range of lorawan. I legit get it throught a hill made out of limestone and clay. The range is insanse.
Jaytheblader 10/19/2021 1:39 PM
The thing is as the range increases it gets less consistent.
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maco2035 🐮 10/19/2021 1:39 PM
Yes it does, however when people place them in the same block, it is useless imo for coverage (edited)
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maco2035 🐮
Yes it does, however when people place them in the same block, it is useless imo for coverage (edited)
Jaytheblader 10/19/2021 1:43 PM
Totally! In a very dense built up city you can get away 1 every 2 - 3 hundred meters, and in the suburbs about every 1 - 2 km and in the country it can be every 7-10 km provided they are decent antenna setup. This it for strong coverage of course and is very dependent on terrain.
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Jaytheblader
The oyster trackers on the garbage trucks in my city seem to get about 30km range, to my 8dbi on a hilltop. (edited)
All I can say is wow! That is exciting to hear. (edited)
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maco2035 🐮
I really thing everyone really under estimates the range of lorawan. I legit get it throught a hill made out of limestone and clay. The range is insanse.
wolfenhawke 10/19/2021 3:53 PM
Range is not the only consideration for LoRA. Once the network really gets going, it is not a fast response protocol. So if you have hypothetically 20 dogs walking with low power (for battery consumption) by the only house with a hotspot, they are not all guaranteed to get captured. Also take into account that a sensor is not likely to continuously transmit, in order to conserve battery.
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15:53
Thus for a true fielded system, you do want some extra gateways (hotspots/miners) to be there to also pick up traffic.
15:54
In a city this gets more important due to the density of people/iot things and the interference possible under different conditions.
15:54
But in the country it is also important. What if that stolen car only passes the one hotspot for miles once?
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wolfenhawke
Range is not the only consideration for LoRA. Once the network really gets going, it is not a fast response protocol. So if you have hypothetically 20 dogs walking with low power (for battery consumption) by the only house with a hotspot, they are not all guaranteed to get captured. Also take into account that a sensor is not likely to continuously transmit, in order to conserve battery.
maco2035 🐮 10/19/2021 3:55 PM
Just for your information, hotspots have 8/16 channels, and can take a packet within a few ms. And most sensors don't send data more then a few times in a sec. That is why you can have one, and have 1000 diffrent sensors in a place.
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wolfenhawke 10/19/2021 3:58 PM
A sensor is likely to transmit once every several minutes or longer (maybe multiple transmits to ensure transmission), but unless it's ack'd it is send and pray. I think Helium in US uses 8 of the channels. So, assuming the sensor has all 8 channels and not say 4 of the 8 supported and 4 others, AND it checks clear-to-send before transmitting, there are still holes in assured transmission.
15:59
LoRA is not an assured transmission protocol. ZigBee has tested with thousands of nodes, but that was only to ensure the network was solid, not for immediate transmission.
15:59
Even on Zigbee, there is a need for retransmission, redundant gateways, or an ACK at a higher stack layer.
16:00
I have used a sensor from TTM that only used 1 channel.
16:00
TTN, sorry.
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wolfenhawke
Thus for a true fielded system, you do want some extra gateways (hotspots/miners) to be there to also pick up traffic.
Jaytheblader 10/19/2021 8:10 PM
Redundancy does become important as the traffic increases especially as the gateways sometimes go offline, a factor of 2 is good 3 is about the most you should need. Its not a perfect thing and terrain does factor in heavily as does use case, stationary sensors usually go much farther than a moving tracker.
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KeithR
Referring to the conversation earlier about the value add to the network for hotspots on cell towers that have 100 mile wide coverage. Am I wrong that this is not particularly helpful because most sensors will not be broadcasting their signal at anywhere near the same power as our hotspots? As I understand it, sensors are going to broadcast only a few kilometers and presumably in an omni-directional signal pattern. If the sensor is broadcasting over water, then maybe the few kilometer range will be more. So it would seem to me that cell tower installs are fantastic for the first few years, but once DCs are the primary source of rewards they are going to be rather irrelevant. Do we have real world broadcast distances of the oyster sensor? Ensuring my comment is relevant to HIP42, what are, if any exist, the scenarios where a hotspot beacons and honestly gets zero witnesses each and every time but also witnesses a multitude of other hotspots?
Due to Fresnel Zone properties the tower based miner might very well decode a weak sensor signal better than a closer but partially obstructed miner would. Just another reason why they stick cell phone set-ups as high as they can as the cell phone signals typically will not travel as far or as well as the LoraWan signals. The idea is the same.
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SporadicE
Due to Fresnel Zone properties the tower based miner might very well decode a weak sensor signal better than a closer but partially obstructed miner would. Just another reason why they stick cell phone set-ups as high as they can as the cell phone signals typically will not travel as far or as well as the LoraWan signals. The idea is the same.
Jaytheblader 10/19/2021 8:14 PM
Towers and mountaintops are awesome locations of course but there does need to be a point at which the value to the network vs the rewards paid becomes negligible, HIP42 is very generous and tower / mountain setups still should earn a lot more than an average backyard setup, just not unlimited.
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Jaytheblader
Towers and mountaintops are awesome locations of course but there does need to be a point at which the value to the network vs the rewards paid becomes negligible, HIP42 is very generous and tower / mountain setups still should earn a lot more than an average backyard setup, just not unlimited.
who and where are suggesting unlimited rewards for the tall guys?
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SporadicE
who and where are suggesting unlimited rewards for the tall guys?
Jaytheblader 10/19/2021 8:17 PM
If we stay with the current system and dont implement HIP42 then the rewards are unlimited, so anyone that is against this HIP is for unlimited rewards.
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Jaytheblader
If we stay with the current system and dont implement HIP42 then the rewards are unlimited, so anyone that is against this HIP is for unlimited rewards.
I am in favor of HIP42.....and tall miners!
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SporadicE
I am in favor of HIP42.....and tall miners!
Jaytheblader 10/19/2021 8:21 PM
Me too
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/19/2021 10:20 PM
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Click to see attachment 🖼️
Hydro-Spark 10/20/2021 5:53 AM
I was playing New World, and came across a character called Elon Muskette
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Jaytheblader
Towers and mountaintops are awesome locations of course but there does need to be a point at which the value to the network vs the rewards paid becomes negligible, HIP42 is very generous and tower / mountain setups still should earn a lot more than an average backyard setup, just not unlimited.
Max - Just Max 10/20/2021 5:15 PM
I just drove 6 hours round trip to close a deal to get towers filling in huge gaps between Austin, Dallas and Houston. But sure let’s cut my earnings to subsidize the people who put their hotspots in their window.
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Max - Just Max
I just drove 6 hours round trip to close a deal to get towers filling in huge gaps between Austin, Dallas and Houston. But sure let’s cut my earnings to subsidize the people who put their hotspots in their window.
Jaytheblader 10/20/2021 5:18 PM
Can you please name one, just one of your gateways that will be affected by hip42
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Jaytheblader
Can you please name one, just one of your gateways that will be affected by hip42
Max - Just Max 10/20/2021 5:21 PM
Sweet onyx llama, blunt opaque viper, just to name a few have been in and out of having issues with it.
17:21
I think they currently aren’t clipped. It’s more this HIP-41 attitude of cutting earnings arbitrarily because they seem like they are too much
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JustifiedWin - Read stuff 10/20/2021 5:24 PM
We have to stop developing hips that are just to make the lowest common denominators who put very little effort into their hotspots happy.
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Jaytheblader
Towers and mountaintops are awesome locations of course but there does need to be a point at which the value to the network vs the rewards paid becomes negligible, HIP42 is very generous and tower / mountain setups still should earn a lot more than an average backyard setup, just not unlimited.
JustifiedWin - Read stuff 10/20/2021 5:27 PM
Yeah i dont know anyone who is earning unlimited from a mountain. But i can tell you that people who put in the work to have an actual remote location that can give good coverage should not be punished just because they are earning more than people who are unwilling to put in a little labor for their hotspot to do well. Taped to the window of your apartment or house is not trying.
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Max - Just Max 10/20/2021 5:44 PM
I get that some people want this to be a fun little passive income stream that should be "fair" but for the people putting in the real work to build infrastructure its laughable to think we're earning too much. Six months ago I didn't know anyone with a mountain or a tower. Now I have over 100 hotspots deployed on mountains/towers and working on getting that number to over 1,000. I didn't have the advantage of being as early as some in here but I haven't once complained that people who got in before earned more than me so I don't understand why people are complaining that other people work harder than them.
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Max - Just Max 10/20/2021 5:58 PM
"When you look at the Helium pricing model, you'll see that you're pricing yourself probably 10 times lower than any of the carriers in Europe that are offering LoRaWAN at a minimum and this pricing model could simply never be achieved by US telco, if they were building out the traditional fashion, leasing cell tower space and power and fiber and paying for the labor. And the spectrum. Everything that goes into it all these costs versus just using the existing infrastructure of people's homes and businesses which have power or have internet and can operate in unlicensed spectrum for free. You can see why there's a massive difference in the possibility to create a really low cost network there." Imagine thinking 2 years ago that you can have both these professional tower installations and still charge the insanely low price. Would anyone even debated how much HNT is fair for those sites, especially considering those sites earn 10% of what my first hotspot earned in a window back in February.
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JustifiedWin - Read stuff
Yeah i dont know anyone who is earning unlimited from a mountain. But i can tell you that people who put in the work to have an actual remote location that can give good coverage should not be punished just because they are earning more than people who are unwilling to put in a little labor for their hotspot to do well. Taped to the window of your apartment or house is not trying.
Jaytheblader 10/20/2021 6:18 PM
You are using the word punished like they are getting nothing and it’s so unfair. When HIP 42 cuts in they are earning approximately 20 x average and this isn’t just setups sitting on a window sill, it includes very significant rooftop setups backyard masts and the like. I’m all for compensation for hard work but there is a point at which the cost is not justified for the benefit.
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Jaytheblader
You are using the word punished like they are getting nothing and it’s so unfair. When HIP 42 cuts in they are earning approximately 20 x average and this isn’t just setups sitting on a window sill, it includes very significant rooftop setups backyard masts and the like. I’m all for compensation for hard work but there is a point at which the cost is not justified for the benefit.
Max - Just Max 10/20/2021 6:25 PM
MatchX pays everyone the same regardless of their setup. That seems like a project that's more your speed. I'm sure sensor companies are just lining up to put their devices on the MatchX network /s
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Carl-bot BOT 10/20/2021 6:25 PM
cool story
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Max - Just Max
MatchX pays everyone the same regardless of their setup. That seems like a project that's more your speed. I'm sure sensor companies are just lining up to put their devices on the MatchX network /s
Jaytheblader 10/20/2021 6:26 PM
Actually I’m a more of a moderate person that likes the middle ground and not the extremes.
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Jaytheblader
Actually I’m a more of a moderate person that likes the middle ground and not the extremes.
Max - Just Max 10/20/2021 6:29 PM
So what's the amount that's too much in your opinion? Should I return the HNT I earned above 2/day dating back to February?
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Max - Just Max
So what's the amount that's too much in your opinion? Should I return the HNT I earned above 2/day dating back to February?
Jaytheblader 10/20/2021 6:30 PM
When HIP42 starts to throttle the gateway is about perfect.
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Jaytheblader
When HIP42 starts to throttle the gateway is about perfect.
Max - Just Max 10/20/2021 6:32 PM
Why is that amount perfect? Why a 6x multiplier? Why not a 3x multiplier? Is your argument seriously that HIP-42 is perfect?
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Max - Just Max
Why is that amount perfect? Why a 6x multiplier? Why not a 3x multiplier? Is your argument seriously that HIP-42 is perfect?
Jaytheblader 10/20/2021 6:34 PM
It makes sense to me as it seems like the only gateways currently affected by it are those that are gaming or have a poor network setup.
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Jaytheblader
It makes sense to me as it seems like the only gateways currently affected by it are those that are gaming or have a poor network setup.
Max - Just Max 10/20/2021 6:39 PM
You're arguing 2 different things. You are talking about people earning too much and then hide behind the HIP-42 argument of "if you can't send downlinks, you aren't creating good coverage." That's not what you are arguing here, you just don't like that people earn more than you. Maybe you're lazy, maybe you don't care enough to create better coverage, but that's not my problem. You could go place better hotspots but you'd rather just complain that people are taking your earnings.
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I assume you are not disagreeing that there is some reasonable ratio of witnessing to beaconing that can be used to define "good value to the network". I think everyone can agree that n:zero or zero:n are not ideal ratios in this case. So really we just need to find the ratio markers that demarc poor installs.
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Max - Just Max
You're arguing 2 different things. You are talking about people earning too much and then hide behind the HIP-42 argument of "if you can't send downlinks, you aren't creating good coverage." That's not what you are arguing here, you just don't like that people earn more than you. Maybe you're lazy, maybe you don't care enough to create better coverage, but that's not my problem. You could go place better hotspots but you'd rather just complain that people are taking your earnings.
Jaytheblader 10/20/2021 6:44 PM
You have no idea of how much my setups earn or how much effort I put into them, you still cannot give me an example of one of yours that will be affected yet you oppose any form of throttling at all. Not sure why you are so against this.
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And let's remember the network is not here to make us rich regardless of effort. That's a bonus effect of the model. As someone that is working his way to hundreds of installs too, I do get the want to be rewarded for my efforts [to both understand the value proposition and to cater to it]. (edited)
18:45
But we have to do something to curtail the gaming and the cheating. They are stealing tokens from all of us.
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Jaytheblader
You have no idea of how much my setups earn or how much effort I put into them, you still cannot give me an example of one of yours that will be affected yet you oppose any form of throttling at all. Not sure why you are so against this.
Max - Just Max 10/20/2021 6:45 PM
Scroll up.
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KeithR
But we have to do something to curtail the gaming and the cheating. They are stealing tokens from all of us.
personally I’d love to see some independent quantification of how much gaming actually costs the network, even if you assumed that absolutely every high earner or strange pattern was a cheater
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I was originally worried about this HIP, as I have a hotspot that witnesses about 1000+ times (some of the time). But 6x seems pretty damn fair. [turns out it works fine for me as this hotspot also has 250 witnesses]
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capcom
personally I’d love to see some independent quantification of how much gaming actually costs the network, even if you assumed that absolutely every high earner or strange pattern was a cheater
I am person that argues that every token earned by a validator is a token you didn't have before so stake yer damn tokens. The opposite side of that position is that any token taken via exploits is cheating. I want HIP40 to be there for every cheater we find. I like this HIP because basically just ensures you have the antenna connected and you actually provide coverage (up and down).
18:49
In short, if one token is cheated we need to crack down on it.
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Sure in purist terms that’s correct, but is it worth hurting good setups if the amount of HNT lost to gaming is below a certain % for example?
18:51
Given that whatever you do to curtail cheating has some effect on honest operators too
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Max - Just Max
Scroll up.
Jaytheblader 10/20/2021 6:52 PM
Sweet onyx llama not affected, blunt opaque viper has not beaconed in 6 days it has something wrong with its network setup and doesn’t deserve the rewards it is getting.
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What is the justice reform line for that? We would rather let some guilty folks go free to avoid any innocent folks to be prisoned. For white collar crime, I think I stand directly opposite. Jail any suspect and find a way to get them out quickly if they are innocent. 🙂
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Jaytheblader
Sweet onyx llama not affected, blunt opaque viper has not beaconed in 6 days it has something wrong with its network setup and doesn’t deserve the rewards it is getting.
What else can we determine in regards to blunt opaque viper that would make you feel comfortable punishing it until it behaved as we want? I am asking legitimately and not to be funny. I want to know if it is possible for bounty hunters to be out there finding the cheats [definitely not saying blunt opaque viper is cheating]. (edited)
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Funny Ash Pike What about this poor guy?
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KeithR
What else can we determine in regards to blunt opaque viper that would make you feel comfortable punishing it until it behaved as we want? I am asking legitimately and not to be funny. I want to know if it is possible for bounty hunters to be out there finding the cheats [definitely not saying blunt opaque viper is cheating]. (edited)
Jaytheblader 10/20/2021 6:57 PM
I think HIP42 offers a fine incentive for anyone with setups that are misbehaving to fix the issues, I mean after all we are saying that those who spend time and effort on making sure their setups are running well should be rewarded aren’t we?
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Jaytheblader
Sweet onyx llama not affected, blunt opaque viper has not beaconed in 6 days it has something wrong with its network setup and doesn’t deserve the rewards it is getting.
Max - Just Max 10/20/2021 6:57 PM
Sweet Onyx Llama has been affected in the past. But now its perfectly fine. Why is it okay now but not okay then?
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Max - Just Max
Sweet Onyx Llama has been affected in the past. But now its perfectly fine. Why is it okay now but not okay then?
Jaytheblader 10/20/2021 6:59 PM
That would be good to find out so we get the settings right.
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Proper Orange Oyster This guy sends out beacons like mad, but never witnesses.
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Jaytheblader
That would be good to find out so we get the settings right.
Max - Just Max 10/20/2021 7:00 PM
Oh, so the settings aren't perfect then
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Max - Just Max
Oh, so the settings aren't perfect then
Jaytheblader 10/20/2021 7:00 PM
Probably not.
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Max - Just Max 10/20/2021 7:01 PM
So good, you agree with me this one still needs work then. Glad we can get the conversation started again.
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Jaytheblader 10/20/2021 7:01 PM
That’s why im asking for examples (edited)
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Max - Just Max 10/20/2021 7:01 PM
I'm not against the idea of this HIP
19:02
It would be helpful if there was an easier tool to use to search by wallet instead of manually checking every hotspot by hotspot address
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JustifiedWin - Read stuff 10/20/2021 7:03 PM
I'm against the continuous dumbing down of rewards to benefit the people not putting in the work. They cry about their rewards but are unwilling to put real effort in.
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Max - Just Max 10/20/2021 7:03 PM
Or just a list of the 13,000 hotspots that are clipped so I can run a vlookup
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Fizzy
Funny Ash Pike What about this poor guy?
Max - Just Max 10/20/2021 7:04 PM
Do you have a static IP with TCP port 44158 open? (edited)
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Max - Just Max
Or just a list of the 13,000 hotspots that are clipped so I can run a vlookup
Jaytheblader 10/20/2021 7:05 PM
This would be really helpful @Anthonyra as we could see what may need tweaking to get the settings right.
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JustifiedWin - Read stuff 10/20/2021 7:05 PM
So if we are going to measure someones worth by beacons why would we also be limiting the rewards you get from sending out a beacon. If i reach more than 18-25 spots I should be rewarded for that coverage.
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JustifiedWin - Read stuff
I'm against the continuous dumbing down of rewards to benefit the people not putting in the work. They cry about their rewards but are unwilling to put real effort in.
Jaytheblader 10/20/2021 7:07 PM
This is not what this hip is about, it’s actually about ensuring that gateways are configured to 100% participate in POC and not just the witnessing bit.
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Jaytheblader
This is not what this hip is about, it’s actually about ensuring that gateways are configured to 100% participate in POC and not just the witnessing bit.
Max - Just Max 10/20/2021 7:07 PM
We really need a HIP-41 channel
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Max - Just Max
We really need a HIP-41 channel
Jaytheblader 10/20/2021 7:08 PM
True that!
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Which one is HIP41 again?
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Max - Just Max 10/20/2021 7:11 PM
I have 2 questions on this. 1 - If you can't beacon with any regularity because you aren't being challenged enough, Does that definitely mean your hotspot still be able to send downlinks to sensors? 2 - Couldn't one argue that the loss of beacon rewards is the punishment for not fully participate in POC?
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capcom
Which one is HIP41 again?
Max - Just Max 10/20/2021 7:12 PM
Witness Decay. I'm assuming that'll be 41
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^I have had hotspots not beacon for weeks. Not my fault. SD card flash resolved. Above I showed an opposite example.
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JustifiedWin - Read stuff 10/20/2021 7:13 PM
I'm just concerned for the fact that people who are putting in a lot of effort to install good locations and not overcrowd are going to be punished by the averaging out of rewards with hips.
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JustifiedWin - Read stuff
So if we are going to measure someones worth by beacons why would we also be limiting the rewards you get from sending out a beacon. If i reach more than 18-25 spots I should be rewarded for that coverage.
Jaytheblader 10/20/2021 7:13 PM
Hopefully this will happen at some point
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JustifiedWin - Read stuff 10/20/2021 7:13 PM
And the fact that to vote on this stuff has nothing to do with the quality of your network that you have deployed.
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Max - Just Max 10/20/2021 7:15 PM
If we want to incentivize people to ensure they beacon more, we could increase the POC rewards for beaconing and having a ton of witnesses. The Reddit crowd would love that.
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19:20
We both want the same thing in this HIP. I think we have a philosophical difference on how to motivate people to do the "right" thing. I think creating incentives for people to earn more by doing the right thing is far more powerful than creating punishment for those that don't. It all nets out to the same thing since the number of rewards is constant each epoch. I have to think through this fully but I think increasing beaconer rewards actually would also create the added incentive for people to place hotspots in locations with 1.0 reward scales.
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Max - Just Max
I have 2 questions on this. 1 - If you can't beacon with any regularity because you aren't being challenged enough, Does that definitely mean your hotspot still be able to send downlinks to sensors? 2 - Couldn't one argue that the loss of beacon rewards is the punishment for not fully participate in POC?
Jaytheblader 10/20/2021 7:22 PM
It’s obviously not enough of a punishment to stop people from pointing several packet forwarders at one gateway though middleman that never beacons and get 20 hnt a day.
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Jaytheblader
It’s obviously not enough of a punishment to stop people from pointing several packet forwarders at one gateway though middleman that never beacons and get 20 hnt a day.
Max - Just Max 10/20/2021 7:23 PM
I don't really care about gamers. Like @capcom says, its like .02% of the rewards.
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Max - Just Max
I don't really care about gamers. Like @capcom says, its like .02% of the rewards.
Jaytheblader 10/20/2021 7:24 PM
Or put a setup on top of a mountain with a dodgy back haul.
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Jaytheblader
Or put a setup on top of a mountain with a dodgy back haul.
Max - Just Max 10/20/2021 7:25 PM
That backhaul is perfectly fine to send gigabit internet to the people of Ramona.
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Max - Just Max
That backhaul is perfectly fine to send gigabit internet to the people of Ramona.
Jaytheblader 10/20/2021 7:26 PM
🤔 yet there hasn’t been a beacon in 6 days, even my 4g setups don’t perform that badly.
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Jaytheblader
🤔 yet there hasn’t been a beacon in 6 days, even my 4g setups don’t perform that badly.
Max - Just Max 10/20/2021 7:27 PM
So maybe its a network issue and not a backhaul issue
19:29
Can my hotspot ask the consensus group to beacon or do I have to be randomly challenged?
19:30
Ambitious Coral Goose is on the exact same set up on a different part of that mountain. Are we looking for examples of hotspots that are legitimate setups that are being affected or are we here for Jay to tell me how well his hotspots perform?
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19:32
I love how you ask for my "worst" hotspots under this HIP which encompasses like 2% of my fleet that goes in and out of being clipped by this then proceed to point out how bad my setups are based on that information.
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Well I just checked out blunt opaque viper. Holy crap. Suspect as all get out. I was kind of on your side before, but not any more. You are now in the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" bucket for me. Something definitely seems wrong with your beaconing...
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Max - Just Max 10/20/2021 7:49 PM
I ran the peer book to see what’s wrong with Blunt Opaque Viper. It’s relayed through Virtual Snowy Troll which is some random Bobcat that hasn’t been asserted and isn’t fully synced. I can’t control who I’m related through. I can control being relayed, sure, but sometimes IP addresses change and ports close.
19:50
It’s on top of a mountain and far from my highest earner. Thank you for thinking my hotspot is gaming 😂
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Upgrade your cell plan so that you can get fixed IP addresses for your devices. Once you have that, they should allow you also get port forwarding.
19:51
I didn't say I think it is gaming...I am saying you have to understand why most people do think it is gaming.
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Max - Just Max 10/20/2021 7:51 PM
It’s on a cell tower attached to a server switch. No one thinks that one is gaming
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We had the same issue for our kiosks.
19:53
I would think you would tell Helium to chop chop on the light hotspots code so that relaying is no longer an issue rather than argue against this HIP. Port 44158 is your issue. 🙂
19:54
Get rid of relaying and I would presume your hotspot would light up with beacon witnesses.
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Max - Just Max 10/20/2021 7:55 PM
It’s literally connected via Ethernet to a box that also sends gigabit wireless internet to like 50 homes in a valley. You can open port 44158 but as soon as the IP address changes it’s no longer open. Comcast and others have “sticky IP addresses” so they are de facto static IPs. We’re in the middle of IP4 shortage right now so it’s not like static IPs are readily available in every situation.
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Comcast has port forwarding.
19:56
Isn't that ethernet switch on the cell tower managed?
19:57
Though tower owners might not be interested in being nice about NAT-ing or IPv6 address care.
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Max - Just Max 10/20/2021 7:57 PM
They have sticky IP addresses so you open the port for say 192.168.69.12 and your hotspot should stay on that IP address but if it gets bumped to 192.168.69.10 it’s not
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I just put two and two together. One of my group members is just starting to do business with you actually. I am actually trying to help so that you look good rather than suspect. Comcast has DHCP reservations.
19:59
They stay
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Max - Just Max 10/20/2021 8:00 PM
Yea, Comcast stays but I’m not using Comcast.
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The cell tower doesn't NAT its IPv4 addresses? And they haven't moved to IPv6 yet?
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JustifiedWin - Read stuff 10/20/2021 8:00 PM
also not everyone has access to comcast
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JustifiedWin - Read stuff
also not everyone has access to comcast
I took his mention of it as an indicator that he had them up there.
20:01
If you have Comcast, then you can do these things.
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Max - Just Max 10/20/2021 8:01 PM
Oh no, I was just saying in general for home routers
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I get that. Now.
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JustifiedWin - Read stuff 10/20/2021 8:01 PM
Just because I'm on a shared tower doesn't mean I would be using that towers services. There are a lot of shared towers around here.
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All of these IP/port/relay shenanigans will be a thing of the past with the light hotspot transition too. So we should bear that in mind
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capcom
All of these IP/port/relay shenanigans will be a thing of the past with the light hotspot transition too. So we should bear that in mind
JustifiedWin - Read stuff 10/20/2021 8:42 PM
For all hotsppots or just lightspots?
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capcom
All of these IP/port/relay shenanigans will be a thing of the past with the light hotspot transition too. So we should bear that in mind
Chop chop please. 🙂
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JustifiedWin - Read stuff
For all hotsppots or just lightspots?
All hotspots become light hotspots via firmware update
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capcom
All of these IP/port/relay shenanigans will be a thing of the past with the light hotspot transition too. So we should bear that in mind
Jaytheblader 10/20/2021 9:08 PM
I was wondering, as part of light hotspots there is a need for the validator code to be updated to send the challenges, why don’t we just implement that part as early as possible and disable it on the current full version gateway software then implement the light hotspot software at a later date once it is complete?
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Jaytheblader
I was wondering, as part of light hotspots there is a need for the validator code to be updated to send the challenges, why don’t we just implement that part as early as possible and disable it on the current full version gateway software then implement the light hotspot software at a later date once it is complete?
Maybe we have? 🤔
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capcom
All of these IP/port/relay shenanigans will be a thing of the past with the light hotspot transition too. So we should bear that in mind
Max - Just Max 10/20/2021 9:16 PM
Are you for or against this HIP? I’m getting the sense that you are for it but possibly thinking it should wait until light gateways go live.
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I try never to be for or against just in case
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JustifiedWin - Read stuff 10/20/2021 9:17 PM
Im against anything that will continue to hurt people who are investing in good equipment and putting out good coverage.
21:19
We have to stop trying to make the lowest common denominator happy, people who are whining because someone with a mountain installation is doing good, and the one taped to their window is doing bad, isn't good.
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capcom
Maybe we have? 🤔
Jaytheblader 10/20/2021 9:19 PM
😉 can’t read erlang yet so I’ll never know.
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Max - Just Max 10/20/2021 9:20 PM
Can I pick who I am relayed through? Like I’d drive all my traffic through the hotspots I know have static IPs if I could.
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Max - Just Max
Can I pick who I am relayed through? Like I’d drive all my traffic through the hotspots I know have static IPs if I could.
Nope
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Max - Just Max 10/20/2021 9:23 PM
Just to clarify, I know I can’t do that right now but is that something that could in theory become an option or there’s no way to code that?
21:23
I’m assuming you can DDOS attack people you don’t like by jamming a ton of traffic their way.
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Max - Just Max 10/20/2021 9:25 PM
Not the right channel for this but you should check out Mongolia
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Max - Just Max
Not the right channel for this but you should check out Mongolia
Meaw | Never DM you first 10/20/2021 9:26 PM
sorry for the wrong channel
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Any idea on when this one comes to a vote?
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Anunnaaki
Any idea on when this one comes to a vote?
Max - Just Max 10/20/2021 10:04 PM
After some investigation, it seems like any relayed hotspot has the potential to not beacon while it’s relayed through a bad hotspot. I think this proposal needs some work before we can essentially decide being relayed could makes you ineligible for POC rewards.
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We shouldn’t abandon this due to people having bad network configs. Does being relayed impact the type of coverage the network needs? If being relayed negatively impacts the coverage, then there are legitimate reasons for having those hotspots earn less. (edited)
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Max - Just Max
It’s literally connected via Ethernet to a box that also sends gigabit wireless internet to like 50 homes in a valley. You can open port 44158 but as soon as the IP address changes it’s no longer open. Comcast and others have “sticky IP addresses” so they are de facto static IPs. We’re in the middle of IP4 shortage right now so it’s not like static IPs are readily available in every situation.
Why not use VPS/VPN in your setups with a tiny modem? That would solve your relay issues.
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Anunnaaki
We shouldn’t abandon this due to people having bad network configs. Does being relayed impact the type of coverage the network needs? If being relayed negatively impacts the coverage, then there are legitimate reasons for having those hotspots earn less. (edited)
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 10/21/2021 5:59 AM
Nobody said anything about abandoning this HIP. The author also considered relayed hotspot so it shouldn't be a problem.
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placebo)🇨🇦 10/21/2021 7:17 AM
Unfortunately not here, it's the wrong spot. Try #hotspot-help or #questions-and-answers
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I’ve heard somewhere or other that relay won’t be a thing with light hotspots and all hotspots will be light hotspots
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This HIP needs to wait until light hotspots are a thing. I'm spending a ton of money building and rolling out off grid units to put coverage in places that no one else is doing it. I cannot get them off relay right now even though I'm working on it. Punishing that sort of thing is going to just encourage more hotspots in dense areas where no more are needed and discourage development where no coverage exists right now.
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12:20
Not to mention I have ongoing issues with some hotspots inexplicably being considered as relayed even though they aren't, and not beaconing for 5+ days. This would dual punish them. (edited)
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usminer
This HIP needs to wait until light hotspots are a thing. I'm spending a ton of money building and rolling out off grid units to put coverage in places that no one else is doing it. I cannot get them off relay right now even though I'm working on it. Punishing that sort of thing is going to just encourage more hotspots in dense areas where no more are needed and discourage development where no coverage exists right now.
Why not wait for light hotspots yourself? Then you wouldn’t need to spend so much money on your deployments?
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usminer
This HIP needs to wait until light hotspots are a thing. I'm spending a ton of money building and rolling out off grid units to put coverage in places that no one else is doing it. I cannot get them off relay right now even though I'm working on it. Punishing that sort of thing is going to just encourage more hotspots in dense areas where no more are needed and discourage development where no coverage exists right now.
One could argue people don’t use smarthome or IoT devices in the wilderness as much as in cities and suburbs. You have to ask yourself if mountain top setups are actually providing the network the value it needs (edited)
13:14
There is also the problem with big companies deploying tons of hotspots as that kind of goes against the decentralized nature of the network.
13:15
Seeing people come into this thread and threatening to stop mass deploying hotspots shows the danger that very action poses to decentralization. (edited)
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Anunnaaki
There is also the problem with big companies deploying tons of hotspots as that kind of goes against the decentralized nature of the network.
Max - Just Max 10/21/2021 1:21 PM
"Big companies" I was an accountant with an Emrit hotspot 8 months ago.
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I don’t care about your past. How many hotspots have you deployed?
13:22
That, along with your revenue, will dictate the size of company or operation that’s being ran
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Max - Just Max 10/21/2021 1:22 PM
Less than 0.3% of the network
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Again, I would rather everybody have 1 hotspot than several key players having the majority of hotspots.
13:24
HNT should be rewarding the type of behavior the network needs. Not necessarily the type of behavior the network is seeing right now. (edited)
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Max - Just Max
Less than 0.3% of the network
So less than 60,000 hotspots…
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Anunnaaki
So less than 60,000 hotspots…
Max - Just Max 10/21/2021 1:25 PM
One of us is off by a 0
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600 (edited)
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Max - Just Max 10/21/2021 1:25 PM
2 0 s
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My bad. Shouldn’t do math when I poop
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Max - Just Max 10/21/2021 1:26 PM
The network provides an incentive to place hotspots with little coverage. That's what I'm doing. I think I have an average of .93 transmit scale across my fleet
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Max - Just Max
The network provides an incentive to place hotspots with little coverage. That's what I'm doing. I think I have an average of .93 transmit scale across my fleet
But what I’m getting at is the network is in a different place now and the HNT structure should shift accordingly. We no longer need to provide mountain goats with LoRa coverage.
13:28
We quickly get off topic with this one. Point is, I don’t want to halt progress and let gaming run rampant on the network for a few hotspots that may not even be aligned with the primary goals of the network. (edited)
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Max - Just Max 10/21/2021 1:29 PM
Cell providers and wireless internet companies place their equipment on these towers. I don't think Verizon is trying to service goats
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Max - Just Max
Cell providers and wireless internet companies place their equipment on these towers. I don't think Verizon is trying to service goats
They are in a very different spot. Major telecoms want centralized control and want as few ingress points as possible to reduce maintenance. These are not goals of a decentralized Helium network as far as I’m aware (edited)
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Max - Just Max 10/21/2021 1:35 PM
4 years ago there were two options. You could take on huge capex and build out a network the traditional way and have very expensive IOT devices or you could keep costs as low as possible and beat the TTNs of the world on price. The goal of the network was to create a cheaper network. Leveraging people's home internet, rented or owned land, capital to buy equipment, and power in exchange for a currency that, at the time, didn't exist yet. By doing that Helium can sell data at 1/10 the price of its competitors. Then the economics changed and that non-existent currency started to have real value so we have the best of both worlds, tower set ups and cheap prices.
13:37
I get the point you are trying to make. It should be everyone buying their own hotspots and placing them at their home to be decentralized. It's a great idealistic view. That's just not how building out a wireless network works in practice. Especially when we have 22 months until 5G has the chance to wipe the LoRaWan network off the map.
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Max - Just Max
"When you look at the Helium pricing model, you'll see that you're pricing yourself probably 10 times lower than any of the carriers in Europe that are offering LoRaWAN at a minimum and this pricing model could simply never be achieved by US telco, if they were building out the traditional fashion, leasing cell tower space and power and fiber and paying for the labor. And the spectrum. Everything that goes into it all these costs versus just using the existing infrastructure of people's homes and businesses which have power or have internet and can operate in unlicensed spectrum for free. You can see why there's a massive difference in the possibility to create a really low cost network there." Imagine thinking 2 years ago that you can have both these professional tower installations and still charge the insanely low price. Would anyone even debated how much HNT is fair for those sites, especially considering those sites earn 10% of what my first hotspot earned in a window back in February.
Especially when we have 22 months until 5G has the chance to wipe the LoRaWan network off the map
i've very confused by your points. First helium is 10x lower than any telco now 22 months before 5G overtakes lorawan? huh?
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gradoj
Especially when we have 22 months until 5G has the chance to wipe the LoRaWan network off the map
i've very confused by your points. First helium is 10x lower than any telco now 22 months before 5G overtakes lorawan? huh?
Max - Just Max 10/21/2021 2:04 PM
Helium LoRaWan is 1/10 the price of competitors like TTN. The 22 months is in reference to HIP 37 and Tushar's famous "LoRaWan can ride the coattails of 5G" comment on the DeWi call. (edited)
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Anunnaaki
One could argue people don’t use smarthome or IoT devices in the wilderness as much as in cities and suburbs. You have to ask yourself if mountain top setups are actually providing the network the value it needs (edited)
wolfenhawke 10/21/2021 2:06 PM
There are many cases for remote IOT. Farm sensors, smoke/fire/environmental sensors, hiking trackers, wildlife tags, I talked to a company today about methane tracking, noxious gas from algae blooms in remote settings, etc. having as much WW coverage as possible is beneficial. Particularly since 5G is not likely to do that for IOT. (edited)
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wolfenhawke
There are many cases for remote IOT. Farm sensors, smoke/fire/environmental sensors, hiking trackers, wildlife tags, I talked to a company today about methane tracking, noxious gas from algae blooms in remote settings, etc. having as much WW coverage as possible is beneficial. Particularly since 5G is not likely to do that for IOT. (edited)
Jaytheblader 10/21/2021 3:07 PM
Absolutely and there are many ways to get off of a relay and onto a stable IP if you are investing the kind of cash that comes with setting up remote hotspots. HIP42 provides the incentive to ensure you do that. (edited)
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15:08
Essentially if your on a relay then your setup is not professional and does not deserve max rewards
👆 4
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usminer
This HIP needs to wait until light hotspots are a thing. I'm spending a ton of money building and rolling out off grid units to put coverage in places that no one else is doing it. I cannot get them off relay right now even though I'm working on it. Punishing that sort of thing is going to just encourage more hotspots in dense areas where no more are needed and discourage development where no coverage exists right now.
I think we should split the difference; we implement this HIP and folks deal with clipped earnings until light hotspot code is implemented. In the mean time, folks with cell tower and mountain top installs will just need to figure out how to do DHCP reservations and port forwarding or use IPv6 for four months. I suspect the clipped earnings will not be setting any of such installs back that much. Beaconing AND witnessing are the definition of good coverage; this HIP aligns all of us to that definition. The HIP authors seem to be doing a good job of considering the anomalies where legit sites might be incorrectly affected; excellent, I hope they can figure all of them.
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Jaytheblader
Essentially if your on a relay then your setup is not professional and does not deserve max rewards
Max - Just Max 10/21/2021 5:22 PM
So you mean like the rewards it loses out on by not beaconing as often? Or it should earn 0 because its relayed through a bad hotspot somewhere else in the world even though as far as the actual network is concerned, it transmits and receives data with no issue?
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Max - Just Max
So you mean like the rewards it loses out on by not beaconing as often? Or it should earn 0 because its relayed through a bad hotspot somewhere else in the world even though as far as the actual network is concerned, it transmits and receives data with no issue?
Jaytheblader 10/21/2021 5:41 PM
We were discussing a minimum of 48 witness events per day no matter what, but you can’t say a gateway is well setup if it’s on a relay it just isn’t no matter how high your tower is.
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Jaytheblader
We were discussing a minimum of 48 witness events per day no matter what, but you can’t say a gateway is well setup if it’s on a relay it just isn’t no matter how high your tower is.
Max - Just Max 10/21/2021 5:43 PM
Why not? What is the significance of port 44158 from a data transfer perspective? Please explain.
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Max - Just Max
Why not? What is the significance of port 44158 from a data transfer perspective? Please explain.
Jaytheblader 10/21/2021 5:47 PM
Nearly every helium setup document stresses the importance of getting off of relay, even the dashboard warns you that this is not a good setup. Why because you are taking more from the network than you are giving, you are happy to witness all of those lovely beacons that everyone else is providing but you do not give a shit about giving any back.
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Jaytheblader
Nearly every helium setup document stresses the importance of getting off of relay, even the dashboard warns you that this is not a good setup. Why because you are taking more from the network than you are giving, you are happy to witness all of those lovely beacons that everyone else is providing but you do not give a shit about giving any back.
Max - Just Max 10/21/2021 5:47 PM
Can you explain why?
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Max - Just Max
Can you explain why?
Jaytheblader 10/21/2021 5:51 PM
You are relying on other gateways to provide the backbone for your “awesome mountaintop setup “ that you can’t even be bothered creating a VPN tunnel to a static port forwarded IP because you know damn well that’s not where the money is.
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Jaytheblader
You are relying on other gateways to provide the backbone for your “awesome mountaintop setup “ that you can’t even be bothered creating a VPN tunnel to a static port forwarded IP because you know damn well that’s not where the money is.
Max - Just Max 10/21/2021 5:54 PM
Can you be more specific about "providing the backbone?" I understand that argument when hotspots were in the consensus group but that's not how the crypto side of the network works. As far as performance of the hotspot to function as a gateway, what are the downsides?
17:55
Now granted I barely have a dog in this fight. That is one hotspot out of about 500 that is affected by this. I'm just confused as to why you feel the need to bring me up all the time. It's starting to get weird.
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Max - Just Max
Now granted I barely have a dog in this fight. That is one hotspot out of about 500 that is affected by this. I'm just confused as to why you feel the need to bring me up all the time. It's starting to get weird.
Jaytheblader 10/21/2021 6:00 PM
You win, I haven’t got the time for this.
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Jaytheblader
You win, I haven’t got the time for this.
Max - Just Max 10/21/2021 6:01 PM
I'm not trying to win. I'm genuinely asking why it makes the network worse now that we have validators
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Jaytheblader
Nearly every helium setup document stresses the importance of getting off of relay, even the dashboard warns you that this is not a good setup. Why because you are taking more from the network than you are giving, you are happy to witness all of those lovely beacons that everyone else is providing but you do not give a shit about giving any back.
You didn't need to imply that he didn't give a shit about it. We do not know how hard he has tried to stay up on the relaying or how frustrated he is with the cell tower owner for not having a managed switch or how idiotic the backhaul provider might be about rotating dynamic addresses every three days. That said, I do not understand the argument against the idea of requiring beaconing AND witnessing. Seems an obvious way to ensure the long-term interests of the network. Bring up the anomalies so as to avoid inappropriate punishing? Indeed. We can figure this out. The goal to catch the cheaters should be universal. We are all losing because of them. (edited)
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Anunnaaki
One could argue people don’t use smarthome or IoT devices in the wilderness as much as in cities and suburbs. You have to ask yourself if mountain top setups are actually providing the network the value it needs (edited)
You could argue that and you'd be wrong. A massive amount of IoT use is industrial/agricultural. Oilfield companies doing large scale fleet tracking, cross country trucking companies, package and good tracking. Cattle tracking. Monitoring valve/pressure status of oil, gas, and water pipelines. 20 hotspots/hex taped to a window in Portland, OR does little to nothing for these applications. My hotspots will be literally some of the few trafficing data for these sorts of applications.
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Location tracking back-country skiers and hikers. (edited)
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Environmental sensors like water, air quality, etc are often out away from cities too. And this is ignoring entirely the end game (in my mind) of finally deploying 5g at these same sites. These are almost all sites that Verizon/ATT/Tmobile has deemed unworthy of rolling their own 5g out. EVER. They won't do it. I will be the only 5g in a 100 mile radius in some of these places.
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KeithR
You didn't need to imply that he didn't give a shit about it. We do not know how hard he has tried to stay up on the relaying or how frustrated he is with the cell tower owner for not having a managed switch or how idiotic the backhaul provider might be about rotating dynamic addresses every three days. That said, I do not understand the argument against the idea of requiring beaconing AND witnessing. Seems an obvious way to ensure the long-term interests of the network. Bring up the anomalies so as to avoid inappropriate punishing? Indeed. We can figure this out. The goal to catch the cheaters should be universal. We are all losing because of them. (edited)
Max - Just Max 10/21/2021 6:12 PM
I don't think anyone is against the idea of requiring beaconing and witnessing. Its just with light gateways around the corner, the issues of hotspots not beaconing should go away. The other issue is you can witness an unlimited amount of beacons but you are limited in the amount of witnesses your beacons can have. These aren't issues with the gateways themselves, but things that have been done to help the blockchain function more efficiently.
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Max - Just Max
I don't think anyone is against the idea of requiring beaconing and witnessing. Its just with light gateways around the corner, the issues of hotspots not beaconing should go away. The other issue is you can witness an unlimited amount of beacons but you are limited in the amount of witnesses your beacons can have. These aren't issues with the gateways themselves, but things that have been done to help the blockchain function more efficiently.
So that is the argument for potentially waiting for light hotspots; either waiting to implement or the clipped waiting to be un-clipped.
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Anyone who lives outside the cities knows what I'm talking about. The infrastruture is critical. Yes - someone could argue they don't need to be deployed. But then you are ignoring half of the USA. Literally, population wise. The cities are developed already. There is hardly a major city that really needs anything more than a few hexes infilled here and there. I am doing the work few else seem to want to do. If the people deem it necessary to punish that, then I don't even know what to say other than things are going astray.
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But once we have light hotspots, not beaconing will become a definite sign of gaming?
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Max - Just Max
I don't think anyone is against the idea of requiring beaconing and witnessing. Its just with light gateways around the corner, the issues of hotspots not beaconing should go away. The other issue is you can witness an unlimited amount of beacons but you are limited in the amount of witnesses your beacons can have. These aren't issues with the gateways themselves, but things that have been done to help the blockchain function more efficiently.
And be careful, you might give someone the idea to make a HIP that does exactly that; simply limit the number of beacon witnessing. (edited)
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KeithR
But once we have light hotspots, not beaconing will become a definite sign of gaming?
Max - Just Max 10/21/2021 6:15 PM
This isn't really meant to be an antigaming HIP. The point of this HIP is hotspots need to be able to communicate in both directions to actually create coverage. The gamers don't seem to beacon (probably because they aren't in those locations) but that's really just a secondary result of this HIP
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KeithR
And be careful, you might give someone the idea to make a HIP that does exactly that; simply limit the number of beacon witnessing. (edited)
Max - Just Max 10/21/2021 6:17 PM
That already exists. Each beacon is capped at 18 witnesses.
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Max - Just Max
Now granted I barely have a dog in this fight. That is one hotspot out of about 500 that is affected by this. I'm just confused as to why you feel the need to bring me up all the time. It's starting to get weird.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/21/2021 6:40 PM
They bring you up because you have been so vocal about opposing this. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
They bring you up because you have been so vocal about opposing this. 🙂
It’s like you have a super power. It all stopped 😂
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Can anyone here use hip42 to analyze if this hotspot is restricted? https://explorer-v1.helium.com/hotspots/112qkwBDJt9U8DXWWoLdbRZRrYPKEQt8sdLvu1JX366sh8M5JtiB Not only is this hotspot available for a large number of witnessing events every day, but the strangest thing is that it actually goes from Asia to Europe and immediately starts witnessing and being witnessed in the space of 2 days.
A Helium Hotspot located in Piershil, ZH, Netherlands, belonging to account 14EBMznRDkYPY9Coa25eW6sJVd9xXeMgicEHpkhTTUKxSXcK2hJ
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Sugar
Can anyone here use hip42 to analyze if this hotspot is restricted? https://explorer-v1.helium.com/hotspots/112qkwBDJt9U8DXWWoLdbRZRrYPKEQt8sdLvu1JX366sh8M5JtiB Not only is this hotspot available for a large number of witnessing events every day, but the strangest thing is that it actually goes from Asia to Europe and immediately starts witnessing and being witnessed in the space of 2 days.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/23/2021 9:21 AM
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Thanks, looks like this hotspot is going to be limited by hip42, would like to follow up again here, what is the difference between limit and daily_limit, does limit mean 7 days?
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Sugar
Thanks, looks like this hotspot is going to be limited by hip42, would like to follow up again here, what is the difference between limit and daily_limit, does limit mean 7 days?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/23/2021 9:33 AM
Sorry, what limits are you referring to?
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transmitter_name wild-gingham-puma transmitter_address 112qkwBDJt9U8DXWWoLdbRZRrYPKEQt8sdLvu1JX366sh8M5JtiB witnesses 12 witnessed 228 limit 144 daily_limit 28 limited true
09:37
So the 144 here is the total number of 5-day witness limits?
09:38
Because from hip's formula, witnesses is derived from the five-day list?
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Sugar
Because from hip's formula, witnesses is derived from the five-day list?
Yes the limit is the 5 days overall limit but there’s the daily_limit so that people don’t see high rewards first 3 days and nothing the following 2 due to front loading. If you only have 12 witnesses over the course of 5 days but are able to witness 228 … please please troubleshoot and determine why you’re only participating in only half of PoC (edited)
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Anthonyra
Yes the limit is the 5 days overall limit but there’s the daily_limit so that people don’t see high rewards first 3 days and nothing the following 2 due to front loading. If you only have 12 witnesses over the course of 5 days but are able to witness 228 … please please troubleshoot and determine why you’re only participating in only half of PoC (edited)
Thanks for the answer, it's not my hotspot, it's a very suspicious one I found, not just the very high frequency of poc, the most suspicious part is that it flew from Asia to Europe on the 19th of this month and immediately started pocing effectively.
10:16
It consistently has a high poc frequency both before and after the address change.
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HansDampfTurbo 10/25/2021 8:57 AM
In the HIP it says, that you are not able to send a downlink, if you can not beacon. That is not true, the mechanisms are different since a downlink is initiated by the LNS while the beacon is initiated by another miner.
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HansDampfTurbo
In the HIP it says, that you are not able to send a downlink, if you can not beacon. That is not true, the mechanisms are different since a downlink is initiated by the LNS while the beacon is initiated by another miner.
Technically agree here but the point of PoC is to prove coverage exists in both directions and beacon is the best proxy we have for that atm
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HansDampfTurbo
In the HIP it says, that you are not able to send a downlink, if you can not beacon. That is not true, the mechanisms are different since a downlink is initiated by the LNS while the beacon is initiated by another miner.
Beacon is an attempt for the blockchain to determine if a miner is able to transmit. If the blockchain can't determine if it can transmit where's the proof of coverage?
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HansDampfTurbo 10/25/2021 9:09 AM
I agree with you. But still the correlation of the sentences is not right 🙃
09:10
I have hotspots that are relayed and don't beacon but send downlinks
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I'll be sure to clarify the language with the next update
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The gamers are starting to beacon and have valid witnesses... not sure if anyone else has noticed.
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Anthonyra
Beacon is an attempt for the blockchain to determine if a miner is able to transmit. If the blockchain can't determine if it can transmit where's the proof of coverage?
Haven’t checked back here in a bit. Any update on an app or some other metric that notifies hotspot hasn’t beaconed in X amount of time other than just happening to notice 0 witnesses after 5 days?
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DMan
Haven’t checked back here in a bit. Any update on an app or some other metric that notifies hotspot hasn’t beaconed in X amount of time other than just happening to notice 0 witnesses after 5 days?
soulja57 - heliumbot.io 10/25/2021 11:58 PM
#heliumbot-io will support these type of analytical/performance notifications. We are not quite there yet though 🙂
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Try #questions-and-answers. That in no way pertains to #hip-42-beacon-witness-ratio-witness-reward-limit
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proslasher
The gamers are starting to beacon and have valid witnesses... not sure if anyone else has noticed.
ProfiGembler 10/27/2021 4:51 AM
so,this hip became worthless if that is true?
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ProfiGembler
so,this hip became worthless if that is true?
HansDampfTurbo 10/27/2021 5:11 AM
No it is still usefull to give the community an incentive to beacon and get rid of relayed.
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proslasher
The gamers are starting to beacon and have valid witnesses... not sure if anyone else has noticed.
Which ones are beaconing?
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ProfiGembler
so,this hip became worthless if that is true?
Also if they are beaconing than the HIP even before implementation is working! If they are beaconing and they beacon then they are providing coverage. If we see that when they beacon all of their witnesses are in a specific area of a city but they can witness the entire city.. than we can clamp down even more for example. But if they witness and beacon aren’t they providing coverage than? As long as the witnesses are coming from repeaters/extenders and not an exploit of port 1680…
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Anthonyra
Also if they are beaconing than the HIP even before implementation is working! If they are beaconing and they beacon then they are providing coverage. If we see that when they beacon all of their witnesses are in a specific area of a city but they can witness the entire city.. than we can clamp down even more for example. But if they witness and beacon aren’t they providing coverage than? As long as the witnesses are coming from repeaters/extenders and not an exploit of port 1680…
08:23
and all of the witnesses are ones that are getting the replayed traffic
08:26
so one of three is probably happening: a) all of these miners are sitting in the same room or b) they are filtering which miners are able to see their traffic, or c) they're spoofing the logic and signing the transactions then replaying them across the internet
08:27
two of the above are not providing coverage IMO
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@Max - Just Max https://etl.dewi.org/question/623-0-witness-hotspots-that-are-older-than-5-days If you want a .csv or dump of such a query we may need @hashc0de help... since he can directly query an ETL and won't need to worry about timing out a server. He could also increase the sensitivity by simply running my proposal check query at https://etl.dewi.org/question/461-poc-witness-scaling-hip-42 and allow you to crunch the data as you please
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is the query basically "find me all the hotspots with 0 witness beacons in the last 5 days"?
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That's what the first one is, the second does HIP-42 limit checks
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Anthonyra
@Max - Just Max https://etl.dewi.org/question/623-0-witness-hotspots-that-are-older-than-5-days If you want a .csv or dump of such a query we may need @hashc0de help... since he can directly query an ETL and won't need to worry about timing out a server. He could also increase the sensitivity by simply running my proposal check query at https://etl.dewi.org/question/461-poc-witness-scaling-hip-42 and allow you to crunch the data as you please
Max - Just Max 10/27/2021 11:02 AM
That will be great
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HansDampfTurbo
No it is still usefull to give the community an incentive to beacon and get rid of relayed.
wolfenhawke 10/27/2021 2:11 PM
Some people using ISP routers are finding they cannot forward
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Light hotspots can't be here quick enough... but unless they're getting absurdly high witnesses while not having a single witness over the course of 5 days they're usually okay with the current proposal
14:15
I also assume that this will land either shortly before or after light hotspots based on the pace it's currently going at
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wolfenhawke
Some people using ISP routers are finding they cannot forward
Can we get a few of these ISP companies named so people can avoid them or folks that have successfully navigated customer support to get it done can tell their story?
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wolfenhawke 10/27/2021 3:12 PM
Yes. Checking with one host I helped to no avail. But generally, I advise to go the cheaper route of using your own modem and router rather than renting theirs.
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wolfenhawke 10/27/2021 3:23 PM
It was Xfinity (Comcast). Now it is a symptom of rented router. And maybe a specific one. It's not the service, as I have been able to forward when running owned modem and router.
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wolfenhawke
It was Xfinity (Comcast). Now it is a symptom of rented router. And maybe a specific one. It's not the service, as I have been able to forward when running owned modem and router.
The issue with Comcast is that some of the machines require the forwarding be done on local router and the others to be done on the customer's comcast cloud account.
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KeithR
Can we get a few of these ISP companies named so people can avoid them or folks that have successfully navigated customer support to get it done can tell their story?
HansDampfTurbo 10/28/2021 10:24 AM
Some kind of wiki for all country's would be helpful for all.
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HansDampfTurbo
Some kind of wiki for all country's would be helpful for all.
wolfenhawke 10/28/2021 9:17 PM
Maybe this is a channel dedicated for forwarding - then we can pin solutions, and solutions by country...Or, maybe we pin unique country solutions onto the country channel
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Deleted User 10/28/2021 11:29 PM
hey guys don't you realise that relayed hotspots will be excluded that way?
23:29
this ratio only works if a hotspot is not relayed
facepalm 1
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Deleted User
this ratio only works if a hotspot is not relayed
HansDampfTurbo 10/29/2021 1:54 AM
Actually there is no reason why a hotspot should be relayed anymore. There are a lot of tutorials out now how to fix it. If CGNAT is in action then you have to set up a VPS or buy a LTE Router with IPv4 Sim. I think this HIP is important to increase the incentive to get rid of delayed and make the network fairer
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HansDampfTurbo
Actually there is no reason why a hotspot should be relayed anymore. There are a lot of tutorials out now how to fix it. If CGNAT is in action then you have to set up a VPS or buy a LTE Router with IPv4 Sim. I think this HIP is important to increase the incentive to get rid of delayed and make the network fairer
Deleted User 10/29/2021 1:56 AM
Not anyone with a Hotspot is capable of solving Relayed, financially and technically
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Deleted User
Not anyone with a Hotspot is capable of solving Relayed, financially and technically
Most people should be able to figure this out. There are plenty of guides available, lots of folks have helped here in the discord server, and customer support for your ISP is only a phone call away.
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KeithR
Most people should be able to figure this out. There are plenty of guides available, lots of folks have helped here in the discord server, and customer support for your ISP is only a phone call away.
Deleted User 10/29/2021 2:32 AM
People with LTE/5G internet which is becoming more and more popular in most countries of the world, will probably never get a public IP (edited)
02:32
We should think from the shoes of average people in average countries
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KeithR
Most people should be able to figure this out. There are plenty of guides available, lots of folks have helped here in the discord server, and customer support for your ISP is only a phone call away.
Deleted User 10/29/2021 2:33 AM
Even in Switzerland there are only 2 providers who will disable GCNAT
02:35
And taking a simple ratio like like this to exclude people in rural areas from maybe providing excellent coverage and growing the density of the network is not a good deal in my opinion
02:35
Even I have 80+ miners and struggled a long time to get a public IP on mobile hotspots in siwtzerland
02:36
Therfore if this HIP goes out for vote I will vote against it. (edited)
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That is disappointing then. But as soon as the firmware is updated to make all of the hotspot lightweight, your situation will be a thing of the past. I can see why you would not like this HIP. (edited)
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KeithR
That is disappointing then. But as soon as the firmware is updated to make all of the hotspot lightweight, your situation will be a thing of the past. I can see why you would not like this HIP. (edited)
Deleted User 10/29/2021 2:37 AM
Is there any blog post describing this in more detail?
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So relaying is not necessarily a death knell here in US. There is a reasonable chance you can relay through a reliable hotspot. But I suppose this is not the case for you.
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KeithR
So relaying is not necessarily a death knell here in US. There is a reasonable chance you can relay through a reliable hotspot. But I suppose this is not the case for you.
Deleted User 10/29/2021 2:38 AM
exactly
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If most people do not have public IP or an ISP that will still port forward for you, then your chances of successfully relaying would seem slim. (edited)
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Deleted User
Is there any blog post describing this in more detail?
I don't have a link for you; sorry. I would imagine the Helium documentation would cover the topic though.
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Deleted User 10/29/2021 2:40 AM
when will this be rolled out?
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The last time I heard it was April-ish, but that seemed like a case of under promising and over delivering.
02:41
I am sure it is difficult to disentangle all of the blockchain from the hotspot code, but six months seems like a long time to me.
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Deleted User
People with LTE/5G internet which is becoming more and more popular in most countries of the world, will probably never get a public IP (edited)
Thinking more about this, I guess I am surprised that 5G service is not using IPv6 exclusively; in which case every IP address handed out would indeed be publicly addressable.
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KeithR
Thinking more about this, I guess I am surprised that 5G service is not using IPv6 exclusively; in which case every IP address handed out would indeed be publicly addressable.
HansDampfTurbo 10/29/2021 2:47 AM
p2plib which is running on the miners does not support ipv6.
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HansDampfTurbo
p2plib which is running on the miners does not support ipv6.
Thank you. Did not know that.
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Deleted User 10/29/2021 2:47 AM
even with ipv6 many hotspots stay relayed
02:48
i dont understand why
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HansDampfTurbo
p2plib which is running on the miners does not support ipv6.
Deleted User 10/29/2021 2:48 AM
ah slready, thought its my fault
02:48
will there be any ip6 support soon?
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HansDampfTurbo 10/29/2021 2:49 AM
no
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Deleted User 10/29/2021 2:49 AM
schade
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Deleted User
schade
HansDampfTurbo 10/29/2021 2:49 AM
jo
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Deleted User 10/29/2021 2:49 AM
Conclusion: im still against this HIP 👎
02:50
as me myself i have many legit hotspots with similar ratios, that sre just relayed and high enough
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Deleted User
Conclusion: im still against this HIP 👎
What I appreciate is that you have given a real world scenario where not beaconing would be legitimate. The HIP will either need to account for your stated scenario or a good portion of the european hotspot owners are going to vote 'no'.
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Deleted User 10/29/2021 2:52 AM
it is only US that is privileged enough with ISP and density of hotspots
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02:52
the rest of the world "suffers" more than it gains from many HIPs that sre discussed here
02:53
that's why i think also the voting system should include amount of miners and regional ratio, but that's another discussion...
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Deleted User
the rest of the world "suffers" more than it gains from many HIPs that sre discussed here
Then please stay engaged to ensure a european viewpoint is part of every HIP.
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Deleted User 10/29/2021 2:55 AM
and we need to keep in mind that people will start tp game/spoof/hack more when they are disadvantaged for things they have no influence over, this hip could backlash in silly ways we can not imagine yet
facepalm 1
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Deleted User
that's why i think also the voting system should include amount of miners and regional ratio, but that's another discussion...
hold on there one minute....this is america, what is good for us is good for all of you other countries. 🙂
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KeithR
hold on there one minute....this is america, what is good for us is good for all of you other countries. 🙂
Deleted User 10/29/2021 2:56 AM
😂
02:56
#makeheliumgreatagain (edited)
02:56
#dontcanceltherestoftheworld
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Pretty good job of hashtagging both sides of our political environment!
mrburns 1
02:58
Neither left nor right has an exclusive on craziness. One party seems predominately looney at this time, but I hope this is temporary.
03:00
Back to the HIP...given your IP address scenario, have you given thought on how we might consider your situation but still have a ratio that ensures every hotspot is providing coverage [to earn rewards]? Keeping in mind that providing up and down communications is how we are currently defining "coverage"; witnessing AND beaconing. (edited)
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Deleted User 10/29/2021 3:10 AM
No, because you already get "punished" for being relayed
03:10
you get less rewards as you can not accept challenges (edited)
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03:11
And I think about 1/3 of income for most hotspots comes from being witnessed (edited)
03:11
so you get punished with -33% by being relayed
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Deleted User
as me myself i have many legit hotspots with similar ratios, that sre just relayed and high enough
The HIP was written with a lot of wiggle room and is very conservative for the reasons you listed this morning. If you have hotspots that are adversely affected by this and you’ve taken all actions you could as an operator to alleviate such issues than I’d be more than willing to adjust it. Keith is right though a lot of this wiggle room will be changed / removed with light hotspots. They are currently testing milestone 2 which means they’re only 2 away from the fix for relay.
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Deleted User
you get less rewards as you can not accept challenges (edited)
IIRC, you can accept challenges, but the relay mechanism is just less reliable, so you may miss some challenge opportunities.
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krby
IIRC, you can accept challenges, but the relay mechanism is just less reliable, so you may miss some challenge opportunities.
Deleted User 10/29/2021 8:17 AM
*most challenges
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krby
IIRC, you can accept challenges, but the relay mechanism is just less reliable, so you may miss some challenge opportunities.
Now, fwiw I believe it's not the relay status per say... it's been there since the beginning with little to no issues. The problem is the length / age of a relay. It refreshes quite frequently and since the gossip of the network is agonizingly slow the address to that hotspot is rarely up to date to allow inbound connections. We've also seen a lot of issue with witness receipts being delivered to dockerized hotspots (ie bobcat, sensecap, and nebra) also
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Anthonyra
Now, fwiw I believe it's not the relay status per say... it's been there since the beginning with little to no issues. The problem is the length / age of a relay. It refreshes quite frequently and since the gossip of the network is agonizingly slow the address to that hotspot is rarely up to date to allow inbound connections. We've also seen a lot of issue with witness receipts being delivered to dockerized hotspots (ie bobcat, sensecap, and nebra) also
So Anthonyra, are you saying that challenges created by 'bocat, senseca, nebra,..) have a lot more chance of coming back with 0 wintesses, just because the witness can't reach the "dockerized" challenger? Any reason for this? This is IMHO very interesting and important information, since those 3 make half of the network. Meaning half of all challenges has a high chance of ending up with 0 (or very less - I saw that too) witnesses. Is my thinking correct?
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molano
So Anthonyra, are you saying that challenges created by 'bocat, senseca, nebra,..) have a lot more chance of coming back with 0 wintesses, just because the witness can't reach the "dockerized" challenger? Any reason for this? This is IMHO very interesting and important information, since those 3 make half of the network. Meaning half of all challenges has a high chance of ending up with 0 (or very less - I saw that too) witnesses. Is my thinking correct?
That's only based on the data I've seen... could be coincidence or simply libp2p the way it is...
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Anthonyra
That's only based on the data I've seen... could be coincidence or simply libp2p the way it is...
Or an issue with dockerized hotspots, in which case it should be further investigated...
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molano
Or an issue with dockerized hotspots, in which case it should be further investigated...
It is being investigated but I don't want people grabbing pitchforks over data points and not evidence
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Anthonyra
It is being investigated but I don't want people grabbing pitchforks over data points and not evidence
Understood. 😉
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However, only Nebra coolcry hotspots can be investigated by the community since bobcat and sensecap are closed source
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Anthonyra
However, only Nebra coolcry hotspots can be investigated by the community since bobcat and sensecap are closed source
But I bet devs can be /are in contact with those vendors if needed.
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i haven't heard this, but it would be very interesting if true
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capcom
i haven't heard this, but it would be very interesting if true
I've brought it up, not sure the best avenue though. @rbrtio and I were looking at data that shows 5 of his miners not being able to send witnesses to those three hotspots even if their listen addresses showed port forwarded and ping able on the network
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wonder if it's some docker misconfiguration
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78K challenges out of a total of 2M 300K (WRONG - 2M receipts, not challenges! Need to get other data) challenges yesterday came back as 0-witness. That's 4%25% . It's already quiet a number.... But of course, not taking into account "very-low-witness" beacons, which I see also more and more (on my limited 5 hotspots out of 200K). And you will never be able to filter those out since you do not know if those are legit very-low or if just some witnesses (1-2 out of 18 witness saw your hotspot) were able to reach the challenger. I check all my challengers when I don't have the full 18 witnesses. Most of them are relayed and I stop looking, others have always some witnesses for the challenges created, but not much. I never found out why. From now on, I will take note of the maker also. I guess all (little) datapoints can help... (edited)
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capcom
wonder if it's some docker misconfiguration
That's what I'm thinking but I'm no docker expert
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molano
78K challenges out of a total of 2M 300K (WRONG - 2M receipts, not challenges! Need to get other data) challenges yesterday came back as 0-witness. That's 4%25% . It's already quiet a number.... But of course, not taking into account "very-low-witness" beacons, which I see also more and more (on my limited 5 hotspots out of 200K). And you will never be able to filter those out since you do not know if those are legit very-low or if just some witnesses (1-2 out of 18 witness saw your hotspot) were able to reach the challenger. I check all my challengers when I don't have the full 18 witnesses. Most of them are relayed and I stop looking, others have always some witnesses for the challenges created, but not much. I never found out why. From now on, I will take note of the maker also. I guess all (little) datapoints can help... (edited)
The data I'm talking about comes from the hotspot trying to send it's witness to the challenger... meaning the witness wasn't able to phone home like it was suppose too even though my validator was able to connect to it via the listen address available. I guess the next best thing is to see what the witness peer book has compared to the rest also
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Anthonyra
The data I'm talking about comes from the hotspot trying to send it's witness to the challenger... meaning the witness wasn't able to phone home like it was suppose too even though my validator was able to connect to it via the listen address available. I guess the next best thing is to see what the witness peer book has compared to the rest also
My data is coming from the ETL "challenge receipts parsed". 0 witness challenges per day is easy to filter out. Number of challenges itself per day is now running based on unique hash keys.
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Anthonyra
That's what I'm thinking but I'm no docker expert
i know nothing about docker, and intend to keep it that way
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Docker uses some sort 'internal' port forwarding itself. X sends data over port 5 to Y. Y runs docker image. Data enters host. Docker picks up on port 5. Docker sends data to image that is configured to get something on port 5.
17:11
So question is, what protocol/, port is used by witnesses to get data to challenger
17:13
If that protocol/port is not explicitly exposed in docker to the miner-image, data is discarded
17:17
And maybe related, on what address? P2p? Ip4? Where does the witness get the address from? Maybe a dockerized miner is sending his internal docker ip with the challenge instead of the public ip? Again, i do not really know where witnesses get the Challenger address, but if it is send with the beacon itself, worth looking into i would say. Thinking out loud here with my limited knowledge. (edited)
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Anthonyra
I've brought it up, not sure the best avenue though. @rbrtio and I were looking at data that shows 5 of his miners not being able to send witnesses to those three hotspots even if their listen addresses showed port forwarded and ping able on the network
Max - Just Max 10/29/2021 5:18 PM
Very small sample size but the hotspots that got fixed then unfixed just shuffled through who they were relayed through.
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molano
And maybe related, on what address? P2p? Ip4? Where does the witness get the address from? Maybe a dockerized miner is sending his internal docker ip with the challenge instead of the public ip? Again, i do not really know where witnesses get the Challenger address, but if it is send with the beacon itself, worth looking into i would say. Thinking out loud here with my limited knowledge. (edited)
the p2p address of the challenger is contained in the challenge. the peerbook maps p2p addresses to ip4 addresses (tcp). it could be some docker port configuration issue, or no issue at all, hard to really say
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capcom
the p2p address of the challenger is contained in the challenge. the peerbook maps p2p addresses to ip4 addresses (tcp). it could be some docker port configuration issue, or no issue at all, hard to really say
And that address is sent with the beacon and witness search for ip4 in peerbook as listen address to send receipts. Like that? (edited)
17:24
(Impossible to get a count of unique hashes to find out the number of challenges created on a day in the ETL. Always times out.... Pitty)
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approximately, yes
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I'd have to get with rbrtio but the witness could have had a stale listen address but I was able to ping all the failed challengers with my validator 5 mins after the failed attempt happened
17:26
All of the failed ones I attempted didn't have relay addresses btw
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So how to test? When I have a 0-witness beacon, I try to peerping the challenger?
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molano
So how to test? When I have a 0-witness beacon, I try to peerping the challenger?
Well with a 0-witness beacon it means your hotspot did the beacon and it was able to reach the challenger... so not sure if you'd be able to test that way. rbrtio is able to see in the logs when a witness fails on number of attempts that's when I tried to ping them to see if the challenger was reachable on the network
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Anthonyra
Well with a 0-witness beacon it means your hotspot did the beacon and it was able to reach the challenger... so not sure if you'd be able to test that way. rbrtio is able to see in the logs when a witness fails on number of attempts that's when I tried to ping them to see if the challenger was reachable on the network
So why would I as challengee/beaconer need to reach the challenger? I thought only the witnesses need to reach the challenger to send the witness reports to?
17:31
Question still open: on what port/protocol do witnesses send the report to the challenger?
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molano
So why would I as challengee/beaconer need to reach the challenger? I thought only the witnesses need to reach the challenger to send the witness reports to?
The beaconer sends the fact it beaconed back to the challenger to start the poc_receipt for that challenge
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Anthonyra
Well with a 0-witness beacon it means your hotspot did the beacon and it was able to reach the challenger... so not sure if you'd be able to test that way. rbrtio is able to see in the logs when a witness fails on number of attempts that's when I tried to ping them to see if the challenger was reachable on the network
If you can access the logs, can/did you also do a peerping/book from that hotspot itself? Or only from your validator?
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molano
If you can access the logs, can/did you also do a peerping/book from that hotspot itself? Or only from your validator?
At the time, just my validator hence why I'm not ruling out the stale listen addrs part... I need to sit down with the guy that can do that to see if that's the case or not
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For data completion: 78K challenges out of a total of small 300K challenges yesterday came back as 0-witness. That's 25% . It's already quiet a number....
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This hip is arguing about witnessing more than beaconing to fight the gamers. Then what about the other way around? For some of us in other parts of the worlds, our witnessing sometimes can be zero in a day, while beaconing also limited to 3-5 / day? So, are we also going to be limited by this hip? When our beaconing is already very lomited and even no/very few witnessing?
20:10
The 3-5 beaconing per day is already a very good condition, i may add.
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No, it hasn’t been voted on yet
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Hi. I'm trying to understand how witness work. I want to know why in some case a hotspot can have a valid witness and sometimes invalid witness with the same beaconer. The message is "witness_rssi_below_lower_bound"
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#poc-discussion
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Omnitransmit 10/31/2021 1:51 PM
Would it be possible to prevent relayed hotspots from sending challenges? 3/4 challenges i receive results in no witnesses due to the challenging hotspot being relayed. Seems like a waste of the network to me as my hotspot is still sending out a beacon.
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Carl-bot BOT 10/31/2021 1:51 PM
Witnesses are reset whenever a Hotspot's location, antenna values, or elevation are changed. This is nothing to be concerned about as the Witness list is used to illustrate Hotspots that have seen a beacon from your Hotspot and does not affect your ability to earn HNT. Learn more: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 11/02/2021 4:26 PM
wrong channel
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Anthonyra
That's only based on the data I've seen... could be coincidence or simply libp2p the way it is...
I am sure that you are correct on your research. Since I have started with my deployment I was trying to understand why my HS are persistent in issuing challenges but very unstable in beaconing. And I am often getting 0 witness. Even though they are all on roof tops with clear line of sight. That was the reason I have asked you to look at creating dashboard with beacon distribution.
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WaveHash
I am sure that you are correct on your research. Since I have started with my deployment I was trying to understand why my HS are persistent in issuing challenges but very unstable in beaconing. And I am often getting 0 witness. Even though they are all on roof tops with clear line of sight. That was the reason I have asked you to look at creating dashboard with beacon distribution.
Challenges as I was told happen via Internet wifi. beacons and witnessing happens via RF. Clear line of sight to what? Did you go with a high dbi antenna with narrow coverage or a low dbi with a wide coverage? (edited)
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Stanton
Challenges as I was told happen via Internet wifi. beacons and witnessing happens via RF. Clear line of sight to what? Did you go with a high dbi antenna with narrow coverage or a low dbi with a wide coverage? (edited)
Beacon is triggered by challenge but better place to discuss this topic is #poc-discussion.
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@Anthonyra do you recommend any vids on this hip?
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Swiftmatic
@Anthonyra do you recommend any vids on this hip?
I discussed it a bit on the last community call but no other videos that I'm aware of
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😊 thanks! I will read up when I can. Just have the babies atm
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Somebody same issue??? I have a bobcat with 60 meters height. Upgraded 5.8 dbi, then boom good rewards for regularly witnessing (twice every hour) for half of the day. Then it jumped back to be more quiet (witness every 8 hours), as if somebody was stealing my witness rewards…. Where can this loss come from? Do you have an idea?
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Dederer123
Somebody same issue??? I have a bobcat with 60 meters height. Upgraded 5.8 dbi, then boom good rewards for regularly witnessing (twice every hour) for half of the day. Then it jumped back to be more quiet (witness every 8 hours), as if somebody was stealing my witness rewards…. Where can this loss come from? Do you have an idea?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 11/09/2021 10:02 PM
No one is stealing your rewards, this is not the right channel. #hotspot-help
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Dederer123
Somebody same issue??? I have a bobcat with 60 meters height. Upgraded 5.8 dbi, then boom good rewards for regularly witnessing (twice every hour) for half of the day. Then it jumped back to be more quiet (witness every 8 hours), as if somebody was stealing my witness rewards…. Where can this loss come from? Do you have an idea?
what type of tower? other equipment in the tower ?
10:04
before the antenna upgrade it was good ?
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Anthonyra
No, it hasn’t been voted on yet
When is this projected to be voted on now that we have a witness decay chain variable?
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Anunnaaki
When is this projected to be voted on now that we have a witness decay chain variable?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 11/10/2021 8:13 PM
Well this is different from the witness decay HIP
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What happened to the decay one then? I found it on GitHub. Swear it used to be over here in discord.
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Anunnaaki
What happened to the decay one then? I found it on GitHub. Swear it used to be over here in discord.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 11/10/2021 8:31 PM
It never got a channel, despite @capcom saying he would make one for it. 😉 (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It never got a channel, despite @capcom saying he would make one for it. 😉 (edited)
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 11/11/2021 1:02 AM
Could you link me your hip rendered view here?
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Could you link me your hip rendered view here?
GitHub Gist: instantly share code, notes, and snippets.
05:33
This was the combined version that was meant to be split up into HIP41 and HIP42 but ... HIP41 - Witness decay was never submitted.. I think it'd be HIP43 now if was
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 11/11/2021 5:41 AM
@jamiedubs could we get the last missing HIP-channle for this hip?
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Hm yes we have a bunch of outstanding HIP drafts to number and merge
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Anthonyra
This was the combined version that was meant to be split up into HIP41 and HIP42 but ... HIP41 - Witness decay was never submitted.. I think it'd be HIP43 now if was
+ @Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 – is that gist more recent than this HIP draft? https://github.com/helium/HIP/blob/91a2744fdded4cdafb98c4d03f9a21f7debec2ec/xxxx-witness-decay.md - that is from https://github.com/helium/HIP/pull/292
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jamiedubs
+ @Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 – is that gist more recent than this HIP draft? https://github.com/helium/HIP/blob/91a2744fdded4cdafb98c4d03f9a21f7debec2ec/xxxx-witness-decay.md - that is from https://github.com/helium/HIP/pull/292
You found the most updated version.. the gist is obsolete. I just knew where the gist was located and not the HIP draft.
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copy that, thx, will review and merge asap
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jamiedubs
copy that, thx, will review and merge asap
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 11/11/2021 7:42 AM
Thanks Jamie, appreciate it! @ElonTusk | 5Gchipped good news buddy :)
❤️ 1
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hotspot not sending beacon for 4 days what should i do
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lala68
hotspot not sending beacon for 4 days what should i do
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 11/15/2021 12:32 AM
Probably should ask the nice people in #hotspot-help for advice. 🙂
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Hello, have a miner. Great placement / online / synced / not relayed Connected via ethernet cable. Been reasserted 3 times already because it was making only 0.01HNT per day. Placement now in capital city, 300+ miners in area, scale rewards 0.75 and height of device 22 metres but still 0.01HNT reward per day, only one witnessed beacon in 24 hours. Can anyone help me?
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allohagbar
Hello, have a miner. Great placement / online / synced / not relayed Connected via ethernet cable. Been reasserted 3 times already because it was making only 0.01HNT per day. Placement now in capital city, 300+ miners in area, scale rewards 0.75 and height of device 22 metres but still 0.01HNT reward per day, only one witnessed beacon in 24 hours. Can anyone help me?
wrong channel. go to #hotspot-help maybe
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Ruko | Miners.Farm 11/16/2021 6:40 AM
what is HIP42
06:40
no bot here to report on HIP 42?
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read the pins
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Ruko | Miners.Farm
what is HIP42
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 11/16/2021 12:09 PM
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Hi am I in the right place to ask a question regards why my witnesses have dropped from 100ish to 0 I the last few weeks.
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apatel
Hi am I in the right place to ask a question regards why my witnesses have dropped from 100ish to 0 I the last few weeks.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 11/19/2021 11:29 AM
Nope. #hotspot-help 🙂
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Radrob
read the pins
Hi, I’m new to discord, where can i find the pins 😅
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JOGLITE
Hi, I’m new to discord, where can i find the pins 😅
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 11/20/2021 11:48 AM
Top right. 📌 icon
11:49
(On mobile, swipe left)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Top right. 📌 icon
Super, thank you. Was not easy to find on mobile 👍🏼
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HoldTheLine 11/23/2021 7:05 AM
i have 13 days to sent beacons with my pisces device and a friend of mine more than 20 days. we have the same issues. but cannot figure the solution. i tried everything. clearing blocks, asserted locations, changing ip etc. and from what i see a lot of peope facing the same problem but no solution of whatever.
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HoldTheLine
i have 13 days to sent beacons with my pisces device and a friend of mine more than 20 days. we have the same issues. but cannot figure the solution. i tried everything. clearing blocks, asserted locations, changing ip etc. and from what i see a lot of peope facing the same problem but no solution of whatever.
CrunchBang';-- 11/23/2021 7:09 AM
Wrong channel - #hotspot-help
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No Exchange Discussion #Rules 12/08/2021 1:01 PM
Maybe we should move the HIP-42 discussion to #hotspot-help and leave this channel for random hotspot issues... 😂
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So where are we with this? What needs to be done to get this moving? Or is it still moving? 😄
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molano
So where are we with this? What needs to be done to get this moving? Or is it still moving? 😄
The PR for heliumvote is currently under review 😊
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I am against this until existing software can ensure healthy amount of beacons without user intervention. I have a handful that have not beaconed for weeks, only solution I know of is to flash and start fresh.
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Fizzy
I am against this until existing software can ensure healthy amount of beacons without user intervention. I have a handful that have not beaconed for weeks, only solution I know of is to flash and start fresh.
Jaytheblader 12/14/2021 1:33 PM
Its not the software, either your network or the hardware itself has an issue.
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Jaytheblader
Its not the software, either your network or the hardware itself has an issue.
P2P issues cause challengers to not be able to contact the challengee, so there's actually an issue with the network that makes hotspots not beacon as frequently as they should. I would support this, but only after light hotspots are deployed and stable.
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ricopt5
P2P issues cause challengers to not be able to contact the challengee, so there's actually an issue with the network that makes hotspots not beacon as frequently as they should. I would support this, but only after light hotspots are deployed and stable.
Jaytheblader 12/14/2021 2:59 PM
The vast majority of the hotspots on the network seem to have no problem in beaconing 2 -3 times a day are you saying the software singles out particular gatways to stop this from happening? (edited)
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Jaytheblader
The vast majority of the hotspots on the network seem to have no problem in beaconing 2 -3 times a day are you saying the software singles out particular gatways to stop this from happening? (edited)
It's not that some gateway don't beacon at all, they still beacon, but less frequently. There are P2P issues currently (it's a fact acknowledged by helium) which causes sometimes the challengee not being able to contact a certain gateway to beacon, but others can (same thing happens when a witness tries to contact the challenger to send the witness receipt). So "challenger 1" tries to challenge "gateway abc" but fails due to the P2P issue. Some time later, "challenger 2" tries to challenge "gateway abc" and succeeds, so "gateway abc" beacons. Here, the gateway only sent one beacon when it was supposed to send two. My hotspot for example, beacons only a couple times per week, and I'm not alone. My setup is the simple hotspot connected to ISP router with port open. (edited)
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ricopt5
It's not that some gateway don't beacon at all, they still beacon, but less frequently. There are P2P issues currently (it's a fact acknowledged by helium) which causes sometimes the challengee not being able to contact a certain gateway to beacon, but others can (same thing happens when a witness tries to contact the challenger to send the witness receipt). So "challenger 1" tries to challenge "gateway abc" but fails due to the P2P issue. Some time later, "challenger 2" tries to challenge "gateway abc" and succeeds, so "gateway abc" beacons. Here, the gateway only sent one beacon when it was supposed to send two. My hotspot for example, beacons only a couple times per week, and I'm not alone. My setup is the simple hotspot connected to ISP router with port open. (edited)
Jaytheblader 12/14/2021 3:37 PM
Do you think that the reason your hotspots don't beacon as frequently as others on average is because of your network setup or because the helium software has a bias against your hotspot and you are only targeted by gateways that have p2p issues?
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Jaytheblader
Do you think that the reason your hotspots don't beacon as frequently as others on average is because of your network setup or because the helium software has a bias against your hotspot and you are only targeted by gateways that have p2p issues?
I can't tell you exactly. But it's not a bias, what happens to mine can happen to others randomly. If you go to #poc-discussion you can see there people showing the logs of miners not being able to contact other miners
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ricopt5
It's not that some gateway don't beacon at all, they still beacon, but less frequently. There are P2P issues currently (it's a fact acknowledged by helium) which causes sometimes the challengee not being able to contact a certain gateway to beacon, but others can (same thing happens when a witness tries to contact the challenger to send the witness receipt). So "challenger 1" tries to challenge "gateway abc" but fails due to the P2P issue. Some time later, "challenger 2" tries to challenge "gateway abc" and succeeds, so "gateway abc" beacons. Here, the gateway only sent one beacon when it was supposed to send two. My hotspot for example, beacons only a couple times per week, and I'm not alone. My setup is the simple hotspot connected to ISP router with port open. (edited)
Jaytheblader 12/14/2021 3:42 PM
I guess what i am saying is that the software seems to work fine on most gateways, what makes yours (and some others) different?
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Jaytheblader
I guess what i am saying is that the software seems to work fine on most gateways, what makes yours (and some others) different?
That is the question no one has been able to answer. The only thing that is known is that it's some issue in the P2P code
15:45
We are getting updates after updates with fixes for P2P because there are indeed issues there causing lost beacons and lost witnesses due to sometimes miners not being able to contact others
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ricopt5
I can't tell you exactly. But it's not a bias, what happens to mine can happen to others randomly. If you go to #poc-discussion you can see there people showing the logs of miners not being able to contact other miners
Jaytheblader 12/14/2021 3:49 PM
Ill have a read up on the latest.
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Fizzy
I am against this until existing software can ensure healthy amount of beacons without user intervention. I have a handful that have not beaconed for weeks, only solution I know of is to flash and start fresh.
until there is a way to guarantee each hotspot gets challenged to beacon by non-relayed challenegers at least 2+ times a day then I am 100% against this as well (edited)
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@ricopt5 @stranqe In regards to beacons, it’s a loose assumption that your hotspot “should” beacon 4 times a day. The reason is how beacons are created. The only guarantee from the network is that each hotspot will not create more than 4 challenges a day. That’s where the assumption comes from. And with the IP bloom filter your hotspot “should” only be targeted once per poc_interval however still not a guarantee of that interval. Since the challenger gets a list of all occupied hexes on the network and randomly picks one to target. Current libp2p issues indeed have lead to degradation in regards to PoC however the purpose of this HIP should still exist. There’s built in wiggle room already to help in situations that are out of the operators hands. I think one may say it’s too generous as it’s currently written. With the shift to light hotspots most of those p2p issues will disappear and it’ll become even more strict. But those who don’t setup correctly are still going to have issues.
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Anthonyra
@ricopt5 @stranqe In regards to beacons, it’s a loose assumption that your hotspot “should” beacon 4 times a day. The reason is how beacons are created. The only guarantee from the network is that each hotspot will not create more than 4 challenges a day. That’s where the assumption comes from. And with the IP bloom filter your hotspot “should” only be targeted once per poc_interval however still not a guarantee of that interval. Since the challenger gets a list of all occupied hexes on the network and randomly picks one to target. Current libp2p issues indeed have lead to degradation in regards to PoC however the purpose of this HIP should still exist. There’s built in wiggle room already to help in situations that are out of the operators hands. I think one may say it’s too generous as it’s currently written. With the shift to light hotspots most of those p2p issues will disappear and it’ll become even more strict. But those who don’t setup correctly are still going to have issues.
oh I understand how the network works. that's why I am against this hip in its current configuration. and this is also why I stated 2 beacons a day and not getting greedy 😁
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I think it’s still needed even if the network isn’t performing like it should. It’s a feature of sorts that’s a check and balance to ensure everyone is participating in PoC the way it should be. As it’s written you could beacon 0 times a day but still be rewarded for 24 witnesses. The other way to do it is to re structure the reward pools and make witnesses earn less but I didn’t think that was the right move (edited)
22:40
TL;DR if you don’t beacon for more then 5 days I don’t think you’re participating in PoC like it’s intended
💯 2
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@Anthonyra if I do the math for my hotspot, my witnessing would be cut in half just because I'm not challenged enough. Ok, if I use the calculator on dewi etl, it says I'm not limited Again, I agree that this is probably needed, but only after light hotspots are released to be on the safe side. (edited)
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one thing i observed over time is this : if you witness others you send less beacons than hotspots that are unable to witness or just witness 2-5 times / day, this is a fact and i can start gathering data if needed , i guess the intention is to check if those hostspots are still up and running and able to provide coverage while ones that can witness there is a less need to this
👎 1
10:29
maybe something to take in account and have a look at previous HIP's implemented and not just assume as i saw , that a HS sends #x numbers of beacons / day. because that is relative to the activity that HS have 😉
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and not to be misunderstood, i agree with this rule, but the base should be fair to everyone, like if we relate to the #of beacons an HS sends then all should be roughly sent the same #of beacons daily, roughly at least 😉
11:04
didn't sent a beacon from more than 5 days , and yet , he still can witness so it's active and provides coverage 😉
11:05
using the calculator to check if he's limited or not , doesn't even return a result at all
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TheDD
didn't sent a beacon from more than 5 days , and yet , he still can witness so it's active and provides coverage 😉
If they didn't beacon I would argue they aren't participating in PoC... because if everyone simply witnessed no coverage would exist. You need to beacon so other can witness. If you don't provide that then you're not performing PoC. I've also read the source code and have my on PR's on the repo's. The assumption is built into the source code to prevent people from artificially increasing the number of beacons to increase their rewards. I want to require them to beacon to be rewarded for witnessing other's beacons.
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Anthonyra
If they didn't beacon I would argue they aren't participating in PoC... because if everyone simply witnessed no coverage would exist. You need to beacon so other can witness. If you don't provide that then you're not performing PoC. I've also read the source code and have my on PR's on the repo's. The assumption is built into the source code to prevent people from artificially increasing the number of beacons to increase their rewards. I want to require them to beacon to be rewarded for witnessing other's beacons.
to send a beacon you have to be challenged to do so, he's not challenged
11:17
he is right where it's asserted, not too far from me, on a 3rd level balcony with an external antenna , so for sure that guy is not doing anything to increase the rewards
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You can engineer your hotspot to not beacon.. for example forcing the blockchain to not have a listen_addrs. The network issues could also be the cause because the hotspot it isn't port forwarded (edited)
11:19
this one is in the same hex , can't witness too much but see the numbers of the beacons he sends?
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They sent a beacon 3hours ago, 2days ago, 3 days ago and 4 days ago. With 4 being the max based on the assumptions I stated above
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so , the same with me , i do send 1 , maximum 2 beacons / day because i do witness , while hotspots that don't witness sends more beacons
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Which one of the 5 aren't beaconing?
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Clean Holographic Turkey
11:20
this one isn't beaconing
11:21
he does creates challenges , witness , but not beaconing
11:22
and i doubt that one did something to his only miner
11:22
🙂
11:23
as i said, it seems that hotspots that are unable to witness or aren't witnessing well, they tend to be challenged to send more beacons, while hotspots that can witness are challenged less
11:24
it just doesn't look at being random at all, seems that challenges to send beacons are mainly sent to the ones that witness less
11:25
making that base more even for everyone, witnessing or not will be a better base for HIP-42 , imo
11:25
and yes , i do support HIP-42 😉
11:25
but with fair conditions for everyone 😉 as a starting base 😉
11:38
There's an issue with its network... so they should be troubleshooting it to fix the issue compared to being a reason not implement this HIP
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TheDD
but with fair conditions for everyone 😉 as a starting base 😉
I assure you there's plenty of wiggle room to make it fair by the way.. I know of some setups where it doesn't make sense to do all the work to make it beacon (4G hotspot on a tower) because it makes plenty of rewards from simply witnessing
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Anthonyra
I assure you there's plenty of wiggle room to make it fair by the way.. I know of some setups where it doesn't make sense to do all the work to make it beacon (4G hotspot on a tower) because it makes plenty of rewards from simply witnessing
as i said, i agree with HIP-42 😉 but what i like to know is that everyone starts with the same chances 😉 in order to be able to witness
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With enough work all are equally eligible.. it's when they don't put the work in that one may feel they are being wronged.. just my opinion though. Also with light hotspots it should remove the need for the wiggle room and I'm sure people will be upset about that too but 🤷‍♂️
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relayed ones should be able to send beacons as well as non relay, Clean Holographic Turkey, for sure he does have a new IP address may be router was restarted and got a new IP from ISP ,but shouldn't ETL get updated to his new address by now ? as for sure he can communicate with seeds and other HS
11:50
how many are in this situation? is p2p something stable and reliable or not? so people can send beacons, what happen and how everyone will feel when channels will start to fill up with people yelling that they can't do anything because of a bug or something that limited their earning? how will you feel when you will see all those screaming and yelling? 😉
11:50
the idea , the math is good , just the base that you want to build on needs to be checked and tested for supporting it 😉
11:51
anyway , it was just my opinion over it , i know one way or another all those issues ( if there will be any ) will be fixed in time 😉
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Max - Just Max 12/15/2021 1:52 PM
I found another issue possible with this HIP, @Anthonyra. If I lend a static to a tower for the hotspot to ensure it can keep 44158 open and have a constant listen address, an IP address previously in Indiana will not work on a hotspot in California because it is too far away the location.
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Max - Just Max
I found another issue possible with this HIP, @Anthonyra. If I lend a static to a tower for the hotspot to ensure it can keep 44158 open and have a constant listen address, an IP address previously in Indiana will not work on a hotspot in California because it is too far away the location.
does this HIP also implement a location check for IPs?
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Anthonyra
I assure you there's plenty of wiggle room to make it fair by the way.. I know of some setups where it doesn't make sense to do all the work to make it beacon (4G hotspot on a tower) because it makes plenty of rewards from simply witnessing
I assume you want to encourage cellular setups on towers to go the VPN route and beacon, so they can fully participate in PoC right?
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dogcow
does this HIP also implement a location check for IPs?
Max - Just Max 12/15/2021 4:28 PM
It already exists as an anti-gaming measure
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Max - Just Max
It already exists as an anti-gaming measure
aren't VPNs always in a different location than the miner though? and that's the only way to get a static IP and beacon on a cellular setup
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dogcow
aren't VPNs always in a different location than the miner though? and that's the only way to get a static IP and beacon on a cellular setup
Max - Just Max 12/15/2021 4:31 PM
This isn’t a VPN, this an ISP “leasing” a static IP to the tower a hotspot is being placed on. That IP address is located in the Midwest and the hotspot is in California in this scenario.
16:31
But also, yes
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Max - Just Max
But also, yes
i thought I read somewhere else on here that the IP location check wasn't implemented though, because of how it would hamper off-grids ... ?
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dogcow
i thought I read somewhere else on here that the IP location check wasn't implemented though, because of how it would hamper off-grids ... ?
Max - Just Max 12/15/2021 4:33 PM
Loud smoke mink did a test on Nov 30-Dec 1
16:34
Definitely an issue for that fix. I’m all for finding a solution that works but this one seems to not be a viable fix
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@Anthonyra ... is there an IP location check like Max is saying?
16:37
I mean, I am all for incentivizing hotspots to participate in both side of PoC, but a location check would be a PITA for everyone who has done that work to deploy off grids and happens to have a VPN in a different state
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Max - Just Max 12/15/2021 4:38 PM
And as an aside to that, where does it check? We’ve submitted paperwork to ARIN to get the location updated and it has been approved in their system but free IP address checking services don’t have the most up to date data
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Max - Just Max
Loud smoke mink did a test on Nov 30-Dec 1
You did a two day experiment about networking with Helium?
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dogcow
I assume you want to encourage cellular setups on towers to go the VPN route and beacon, so they can fully participate in PoC right?
Yes, atleast until Light Hotspots are rolled out. In regards to the IP location check.. there isn't one. There's an IP bloom filter that's used to see if the challenger saw that a miner performed a beacon with in the last 360 blocks (based on poc_interval) if it's in the bloom filter it did beacon. The challenger then tries another hotspot within that hex. When it comes to location it all depends on the asserted location via the h3 index on the chain
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Anthonyra
Yes, atleast until Light Hotspots are rolled out. In regards to the IP location check.. there isn't one. There's an IP bloom filter that's used to see if the challenger saw that a miner performed a beacon with in the last 360 blocks (based on poc_interval) if it's in the bloom filter it did beacon. The challenger then tries another hotspot within that hex. When it comes to location it all depends on the asserted location via the h3 index on the chain
thx, that's what I thought
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Anthonyra
You did a two day experiment about networking with Helium?
Max - Just Max 12/15/2021 4:42 PM
It went from 1 HNT/day to .04 to 1 HNT. And the witness events immediately started to show up on the explorer when I switched between the 2 IP addresses
16:43
Tested the same hardware in the same city as the IP address and it works. Could it be a latency issue?
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But it takes soooo long for listen addresses to propagate across the network... if you changed its IP it needs to notify the almost 450k other hotspots that it changed. I don't think it could be latency related due to PoC having a 20 minute timeout.. I'm trying to dig back to your window for the experiment to see if there's anything abnormal..
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Max - Just Max
It went from 1 HNT/day to .04 to 1 HNT. And the witness events immediately started to show up on the explorer when I switched between the 2 IP addresses
By any chance when you swapped it back from the experimental IP did you go back to the IP it had before hand?
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Max - Just Max 12/15/2021 4:46 PM
Yes
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I don't think the experiment was long enough... the network probably maintained it's old IP for those two days hence why you saw a beacon once you swapped it back
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Max - Just Max 12/15/2021 4:47 PM
I can onboard a new hotspot and put it on the experimental as a test
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The amount of time it takes to gossip the network right now is... well awful
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Max - Just Max 12/15/2021 4:48 PM
How awful?
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Max - Just Max
I can onboard a new hotspot and put it on the experimental as a test
I've seen 3-4 days recently for listen_addrs to propagate enough to get some resemblance of "normalcy"
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Max - Just Max
I can onboard a new hotspot and put it on the experimental as a test
That'd be awesome, obviously don't want you to do it with a tower making decent rewards though..
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Max - Just Max 12/15/2021 4:50 PM
Would the listen address matter for reporting witnessed beacons?
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Max - Just Max
Would the listen address matter for reporting witnessed beacons?
No, you do have witnesses within those windows. If it blocked it completely like you suggested you wouldn't see anything. I also need to look back because I'm pretty sure the blockchain itself at the time wasn't in a very healthy spot
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Anthonyra
That'd be awesome, obviously don't want you to do it with a tower making decent rewards though..
Max - Just Max 12/15/2021 4:52 PM
Yea see that’s what’s weird is it went from multiple events per epoch to like 1 or 2 per day
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Yea they also were have seednode issues that could have resulted in it's neighbors not beaconing like they use too
16:54
It looks like the 29th going into the 30th didn't look too good in comparison either..
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Max - Just Max 12/15/2021 4:54 PM
Powerful jetblack tarantula is a good comparable for that one
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Max - Just Max
Powerful jetblack tarantula is a good comparable for that one
ah fuck that's such a good name
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Max - Just Max 12/15/2021 4:55 PM
Different parts of the city but close enough that they witness the same stuff
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Max - Just Max
Different parts of the city but close enough that they witness the same stuff
It does seem strange.. but it also appears that you there might be some max witness randomness going on. Meaning that it could have witnessed the beacon just was selected to receive the reward.. the one that was maxed but was missed is a hotspot that Tarantula hasn't witnessed itself yet
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Max - Just Max 12/15/2021 5:06 PM
I’m going to keep running more tests. Putting a hotspot on a neighbor’s WiFi should mimic the results of Nov 30-dec 1
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So I am up and running but I don't have witnesses. Does anyone have any recommendations as to how to get witnesses?
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Benny Boi
So I am up and running but I don't have witnesses. Does anyone have any recommendations as to how to get witnesses?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/16/2021 3:19 PM
Ask in #hotspot-help
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i have noticed that the maximum active number of witnesses is 18 in all the hotspots. even if you have 100 witnesses still you will get rewards only for 18 maximum!!!!!!!!!!!!
facepalm 6
😂 2
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itstofi
i have noticed that the maximum active number of witnesses is 18 in all the hotspots. even if you have 100 witnesses still you will get rewards only for 18 maximum!!!!!!!!!!!!
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/17/2021 4:36 PM
That's how the PoC system works. 🤨
🤦‍♂️ 1
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itstofi
i have noticed that the maximum active number of witnesses is 18 in all the hotspots. even if you have 100 witnesses still you will get rewards only for 18 maximum!!!!!!!!!!!!
What!!!
😆 4
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Any updates on this hip? I feel like it would be very effective in stopping spammers
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So, the overall idea is to apply an earnings limit to witnessing to encourage a more witnessed to witnessing behavior, right? Before POCv11, I would not have been on board. 5 or 8dbi antennas on rooftops were getting marked invalid sometimes but not others for close by neighbors (1-2 hexes over). With POCv11 in place, what sort of non-cheating setups would lead to much more witnesses than being witnessed?
09:18
My rough no-evidence impression is that "being heard" by indoor hotspots with stock antenna varies quite a bit. It feels (haven't looked at the data) like a beacon from my chimney will get heard by the next hex over once and then not again several hours later or the next day, then again it works the day after.
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krby
So, the overall idea is to apply an earnings limit to witnessing to encourage a more witnessed to witnessing behavior, right? Before POCv11, I would not have been on board. 5 or 8dbi antennas on rooftops were getting marked invalid sometimes but not others for close by neighbors (1-2 hexes over). With POCv11 in place, what sort of non-cheating setups would lead to much more witnesses than being witnessed?
a non-cheating setup affected by this would be a tower over a place that already has tons of hotspots. or maybe not necessarily a tower, but something with clear line of sight to a highly populated area (edited)
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dogcow
a non-cheating setup affected by this would be a tower over a place that already has tons of hotspots. or maybe not necessarily a tower, but something with clear line of sight to a highly populated area (edited)
Ok, so extrapolating a bit well placed high up antennas in/over an area that eventually has a ton of "normal" setup hotspots. Are those bad for the network? How? I don't have one, but the seem to be the "ideal" hotspot owners have been trying for from the beginning.
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krby
Ok, so extrapolating a bit well placed high up antennas in/over an area that eventually has a ton of "normal" setup hotspots. Are those bad for the network? How? I don't have one, but the seem to be the "ideal" hotspot owners have been trying for from the beginning.
they're not bad for the network, they're valid coverage over a wide area, but I think some people feel that they're redundant in places that already have so many hotspots
09:28
honestly, though, a lot of those spectacular locations are pay-to-play anyway and already not worth it
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dogcow
they're not bad for the network, they're valid coverage over a wide area, but I think some people feel that they're redundant in places that already have so many hotspots
Ahh, that's a "who got there first" argument. I mean, in some places, the tower got there first and (hopefully) got a good deal on rent.
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not necessarily. someone might figure out a way to get on a tower and make HNT by witnessing a whole lotta beacons
09:29
that's not a bad thing
09:30
the other challenge is that months ago there was an exploit where someone was witnessing thousands of fake beacons and this HIP would have reduced their earnings
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Ok, what I don't follow is why (from a radio standpoint) that tower's beacons are not heard as well.
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they are heard
09:32
tying the max witness events to a ratio of beacons provides a hard cap
👍 1
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Also hotspots that aren't setup correctly can lead to this. The concern are those that don't beacon or very rarely beacon but witness a ton. They are rewarded enough right now that "fixing" the setup isn't worth it. However, all of the neighboring hotspots are beaconing therefore providing that "misconfigured" one the witnesses to be rewarded but that "misconfigured" one doesn't beacon back to support it's neighbors. There's also the Man in the Middle attack based on how the packet forwarder and miner are setup. You could build packet forwarder repeaters to collect all the witnesses and forward them to the PoC enabled miner to sign. This wouldn't be an issue but those replays can be duplicated easily and thus gamed
👍 1
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krby
Ok, what I don't follow is why (from a radio standpoint) that tower's beacons are not heard as well.
I see a lot of towers use relayed connections because the cost to get static IP or use a VPN isn't worth the cost or work due to the number of witnesses they're rewarded compared to the little rewards from it successfully beaconing. The people truly affected are the neighbors
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Anthonyra
I see a lot of towers use relayed connections because the cost to get static IP or use a VPN isn't worth the cost or work due to the number of witnesses they're rewarded compared to the little rewards from it successfully beaconing. The people truly affected are the neighbors
Yeah it's ridiculous. Getting an offgrid to work on VPN and not relay cost me ...... $5/month (edited)
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dogcow
Yeah it's ridiculous. Getting an offgrid to work on VPN and not relay cost me ...... $5/month (edited)
But that's $5 dollars more for little benefits at the moment for some...
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Anthonyra
But that's $5 dollars more for little benefits at the moment for some...
sigh (edited)
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dogcow
sigh (edited)
Also with light hotspots around the corner it should become even easier to meet such a ratio. It'd then simply help protect against the man in the middle attack (edited)
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dogcow
Yeah it's ridiculous. Getting an offgrid to work on VPN and not relay cost me ...... $5/month (edited)
Yea, it's a different set of tech skills though. Did you go with a service that gave you a static IP (if so which one) or roll your own? I've run my own OpenVPN server in the past, but may be easier to just pay someone else if I end up getting this remote site I'm working on.
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Anthonyra
Also hotspots that aren't setup correctly can lead to this. The concern are those that don't beacon or very rarely beacon but witness a ton. They are rewarded enough right now that "fixing" the setup isn't worth it. However, all of the neighboring hotspots are beaconing therefore providing that "misconfigured" one the witnesses to be rewarded but that "misconfigured" one doesn't beacon back to support it's neighbors. There's also the Man in the Middle attack based on how the packet forwarder and miner are setup. You could build packet forwarder repeaters to collect all the witnesses and forward them to the PoC enabled miner to sign. This wouldn't be an issue but those replays can be duplicated easily and thus gamed
Ahh, thank you both for the explanations.
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【GL-MT300N-V2 Mini Smart Router (Mango) - Secure Personal Privacy Wherever You Go!】 Our GL-MT300N-V2 is upgraded to new chip MT7628NN, and the RAM is enhanced from 64MB to 128MB. Also, the MTK driver helps to improve Wi-Fi connections, coupled with faster OpenVPN encryption. 4 GPIOs are included ...
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krby
Yea, it's a different set of tech skills though. Did you go with a service that gave you a static IP (if so which one) or roll your own? I've run my own OpenVPN server in the past, but may be easier to just pay someone else if I end up getting this remote site I'm working on.
I used a regular data plan and a VPN, not a static IP
10:13
used a gl.inet x750v2 and it worked great
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dogcow
I used a regular data plan and a VPN, not a static IP
Ahh, assumed you meant "mobile data with a VPN service that gave me a static IP and port forwarding" although, you didn't say any of those things, so no idea why I assumed all that.
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krby
Ahh, assumed you meant "mobile data with a VPN service that gave me a static IP and port forwarding" although, you didn't say any of those things, so no idea why I assumed all that.
yep, that's exactly what I did!
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dogcow
yep, that's exactly what I did!
what VPN service did you use that gave you a static IP and port forwarding?
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krby
what VPN service did you use that gave you a static IP and port forwarding?
An (easier) guide to setting up your Helium miner with a mobile data hotspot
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Oh, we're talking about different things. That guide is: run your own VPN server, then connect to it from a mobile data thing. kk. thanks!
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krby
Oh, we're talking about different things. That guide is: run your own VPN server, then connect to it from a mobile data thing. kk. thanks!
to clarify, I have no idea what I'm talking about and just blindly followed the instructions
😆 1
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muffinscrub 12/21/2021 1:18 PM
Is this the HIP to tackle relayed hotspots that earn much higher than the network average without sending a single beacon?
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muffinscrub
Is this the HIP to tackle relayed hotspots that earn much higher than the network average without sending a single beacon?
uh .... yes?
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Is there a straw poll or similar vote for this HIP? Or did I miss it?
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krby
Oh, we're talking about different things. That guide is: run your own VPN server, then connect to it from a mobile data thing. kk. thanks!
Goal of this guide is to use a mobile data plan and a VPN with a Public IPv4 address to get your miner out of relayed mode. END GOAL Anothe...
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dogcow
uh .... yes?
so as long as you are set with 44158 and beacon you will not be effected?
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kupcoin🎈
so as long as you are set with 44158 and beacon you will not be effected?
you have to beacon and your max earnings would be set to a ratio of how many times you beacon vs. how many times you witness other beacons ... @Anthonyra can correct me if I'm wrong here, he's the expert (edited)
22:47
you can use this handy tool to check if you would be affected by this proposal: https://etl.dewi.org/question/461-poc-witness-scaling-2-proposal-check (edited)
22:49
in theory, a hotspot could witness so much that they're affected even if they're beaconing properly, but that would be so many witness events it would probably only apply to tower setups over SF or something ridiculous like that
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dogcow
you can use this handy tool to check if you would be affected by this proposal: https://etl.dewi.org/question/461-poc-witness-scaling-2-proposal-check (edited)
so is False good?
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kupcoin🎈
so is False good?
lol yes. that means this would not affect you!
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110 460 1,320 264 false
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dogcow
lol yes. that means this would not affect you!
lol good to know
22:53
prime spot haha
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dogcow
lol yes. that means this would not affect you!
thanks mate
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kupcoin🎈
thanks mate
np np
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dogcow
you can use this handy tool to check if you would be affected by this proposal: https://etl.dewi.org/question/461-poc-witness-scaling-2-proposal-check (edited)
Fryes Redux 12/22/2021 5:53 AM
Does this work on mobile? I can’t figure it out
05:56
Oh figured it out. Had to turn phone sideways
mrburns 1
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dogcow
you can use this handy tool to check if you would be affected by this proposal: https://etl.dewi.org/question/461-poc-witness-scaling-2-proposal-check (edited)
ihatehangovers 12/22/2021 10:22 AM
This is making me make an account?
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ihatehangovers
This is making me make an account?
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ihatehangovers 12/22/2021 10:28 AM
Gotcha. 137/139/1644/328/false - so I’m good
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What is the best mobile hotspot for an off grid setup
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Pesto
What is the best mobile hotspot for an off grid setup
#enclosures-and-offgrid
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Let me be clear that I absolutely agree with this HIP. I think it is a very fair and logical approach. I want us to get at every way to cheat and defang the rewards for doing so. If you knew me, you would understand how much I hate any kind of cheating. I have a hotspot that is very well done; on flat roof of a two story building in a super flat area (30 miles in every direction kind of flat). 10 foot pole, 8 dbI antenna, ethernet to the network. Port forwarded. Heliumstatus.io says I am a pro... https://app.heliumstatus.io/hotspots/112iv4sfrCB5euAw5raCGUPzWWGGCYD3dZkXFa3zhMky4dusJwFP However, 391 beacons and 0 witnesses! This HIP thinks I am cheating. I am not. So what is wrong with my setup? Why you coming after me bro? [ 🙂 this is said in total jest...I really want to get to the bottom of this]
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KeithR
Let me be clear that I absolutely agree with this HIP. I think it is a very fair and logical approach. I want us to get at every way to cheat and defang the rewards for doing so. If you knew me, you would understand how much I hate any kind of cheating. I have a hotspot that is very well done; on flat roof of a two story building in a super flat area (30 miles in every direction kind of flat). 10 foot pole, 8 dbI antenna, ethernet to the network. Port forwarded. Heliumstatus.io says I am a pro... https://app.heliumstatus.io/hotspots/112iv4sfrCB5euAw5raCGUPzWWGGCYD3dZkXFa3zhMky4dusJwFP However, 391 beacons and 0 witnesses! This HIP thinks I am cheating. I am not. So what is wrong with my setup? Why you coming after me bro? [ 🙂 this is said in total jest...I really want to get to the bottom of this]
Jaytheblader 12/24/2021 12:55 PM
I had this up until a few days ago with https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11oJy6cVzrmse7L6Ji1DmfWVSpQL19KWkwqXybFcX9zEBjJPnk6 When I got a new IP address assigned by the ISP as part of rotation it went back to beaconing. For some reason either the peer book or the seed nodes don’t like certain IP addresses (or so it seems) I do really hope that the devs can solve this issue soon as it really is the only legitimate reason not to implement this HIP that I can see
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Good evening! I have a problem with earnings! Before PoCV11 I had a 6.5 dbi microtik antenna at 15m and everything was fine and I was earning 0.80HNT a day. I turned off the hotspot for 5 days and when I turned it back on after that my earnings decreased, so I decided to put Paradar 4.5 dbi and my earnings dropped drastically to 0.30HNT! I don't know what the problem is, maybe I need to update the sd card or the problem is in the Paradar antenna, I don't know, please help and thank you! https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11vbSFaZkzDP2NXx6eP1JcTGzxMGEyipMuwGg29BTjgwdYi6ntn https://app.hotspotty.net/hotspots/11vbSFaZkzDP2NXx6eP1JcTGzxMGEyipMuwGg29BTjgwdYi6ntn/info https://etl.dewi.org/dashboard/15-challenge-receipt-analysis-dashboard?hotspot_name=Cuddly%20Marmalade%20Mongoose&days=15
Your all-in-one tool for building the Helium network
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Stojke
Good evening! I have a problem with earnings! Before PoCV11 I had a 6.5 dbi microtik antenna at 15m and everything was fine and I was earning 0.80HNT a day. I turned off the hotspot for 5 days and when I turned it back on after that my earnings decreased, so I decided to put Paradar 4.5 dbi and my earnings dropped drastically to 0.30HNT! I don't know what the problem is, maybe I need to update the sd card or the problem is in the Paradar antenna, I don't know, please help and thank you! https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11vbSFaZkzDP2NXx6eP1JcTGzxMGEyipMuwGg29BTjgwdYi6ntn https://app.hotspotty.net/hotspots/11vbSFaZkzDP2NXx6eP1JcTGzxMGEyipMuwGg29BTjgwdYi6ntn/info https://etl.dewi.org/dashboard/15-challenge-receipt-analysis-dashboard?hotspot_name=Cuddly%20Marmalade%20Mongoose&days=15
This is the wrong channel for your question. Try #poc-discussion or maybe #questions-and-answers ? Not sure.
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KeithR
Let me be clear that I absolutely agree with this HIP. I think it is a very fair and logical approach. I want us to get at every way to cheat and defang the rewards for doing so. If you knew me, you would understand how much I hate any kind of cheating. I have a hotspot that is very well done; on flat roof of a two story building in a super flat area (30 miles in every direction kind of flat). 10 foot pole, 8 dbI antenna, ethernet to the network. Port forwarded. Heliumstatus.io says I am a pro... https://app.heliumstatus.io/hotspots/112iv4sfrCB5euAw5raCGUPzWWGGCYD3dZkXFa3zhMky4dusJwFP However, 391 beacons and 0 witnesses! This HIP thinks I am cheating. I am not. So what is wrong with my setup? Why you coming after me bro? [ 🙂 this is said in total jest...I really want to get to the bottom of this]
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/24/2021 4:09 PM
Very weird that you're not beaconing at all. Frankly I wouldn't fully trust Heliumstatus.io. I've had too many setups that were not right that that site said was "pro".
16:10
Nothing wrong on the diag screen in the helium app?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Very weird that you're not beaconing at all. Frankly I wouldn't fully trust Heliumstatus.io. I've had too many setups that were not right that that site said was "pro".
Jaytheblader 12/24/2021 4:38 PM
He’s definitely not beaconing I had a look on explorer. This is happening randomly around the world, it is interesting that mine that did it (quaint yellow cottonmouth) is a nebra and so is @KeithR gateway
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Nothing wrong on the diag screen in the helium app?
Haven't done the diagnostic in a bit. All was well when I left it (I live 900ish miles away from it).
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KeithR
Let me be clear that I absolutely agree with this HIP. I think it is a very fair and logical approach. I want us to get at every way to cheat and defang the rewards for doing so. If you knew me, you would understand how much I hate any kind of cheating. I have a hotspot that is very well done; on flat roof of a two story building in a super flat area (30 miles in every direction kind of flat). 10 foot pole, 8 dbI antenna, ethernet to the network. Port forwarded. Heliumstatus.io says I am a pro... https://app.heliumstatus.io/hotspots/112iv4sfrCB5euAw5raCGUPzWWGGCYD3dZkXFa3zhMky4dusJwFP However, 391 beacons and 0 witnesses! This HIP thinks I am cheating. I am not. So what is wrong with my setup? Why you coming after me bro? [ 🙂 this is said in total jest...I really want to get to the bottom of this]
I was finally able to circle back around to your message... Your hotspot does look strange (14 days without a beacon) however what's strange is the fact it's not creating challenges either (3 days) the reason this is weird is that your last_poc_challenge is tied to this action. Since you haven't created a challenge in such a long time you're technically not eligible for PoC (ie beacons). The question then lies, why? Usually you see challenges being created constantly with other activities flatlining. I've seen a miner_poc_statem loop before that prevents them from performing said actions which essentially boiled down to a sync issue. TL;DR - You're going to need to do a diagnostics on the hotspot (local or remote) and check on the block sync status. The other thing is do a remote reboot of the hotspot and see if that'll "wake" it up.
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Anthonyra
I was finally able to circle back around to your message... Your hotspot does look strange (14 days without a beacon) however what's strange is the fact it's not creating challenges either (3 days) the reason this is weird is that your last_poc_challenge is tied to this action. Since you haven't created a challenge in such a long time you're technically not eligible for PoC (ie beacons). The question then lies, why? Usually you see challenges being created constantly with other activities flatlining. I've seen a miner_poc_statem loop before that prevents them from performing said actions which essentially boiled down to a sync issue. TL;DR - You're going to need to do a diagnostics on the hotspot (local or remote) and check on the block sync status. The other thing is do a remote reboot of the hotspot and see if that'll "wake" it up.
It is creating challenges. What seems to be happening is that others cannot dial his hotspot, so when he challenges a beaconer, that beaconer cannot sent the beacon receipt back to him, so no poc transaction is created in the blockchain. Same thing when others want to challenge him but fail to dial. Honestly, seems like a network issue. @KeithR is there any other hotspot on the same network as yours? (edited)
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ricopt5
It is creating challenges. What seems to be happening is that others cannot dial his hotspot, so when he challenges a beaconer, that beaconer cannot sent the beacon receipt back to him, so no poc transaction is created in the blockchain. Same thing when others want to challenge him but fail to dial. Honestly, seems like a network issue. @KeithR is there any other hotspot on the same network as yours? (edited)
It should be making more then one challenge every three days. Also last_poc_challenge is used to determine eligibility to beacon. If his doesn’t create a challenge the blockchain assumes it’s inactive. Even if it’s witnessing. I can show you in the source code if you’d like (edited)
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Anthonyra
It should be making more then one challenge every three days. Also last_poc_challenge is used to determine eligibility to beacon. If his doesn’t create a challenge the blockchain assumes it’s inactive. Even if it’s witnessing. I can show you in the source code if you’d like (edited)
It created 3 challenges in the last 24h. Yes, I know about that.
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ricopt5
It created 3 challenges in the last 24h. Yes, I know about that.
You're looking at 112iv4sfrCB5euAw5raCGUPzWWGGCYD3dZkXFa3zhMky4dusJwFP right?
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Anthonyra
You're looking at 112iv4sfrCB5euAw5raCGUPzWWGGCYD3dZkXFa3zhMky4dusJwFP right?
Yes
10:09
I don't see the (purple) created challenges...
10:10
Unless, you see the green ones?
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Ah! Go to the All Activity tab. You can see there it is creating challenges, but as you said it is not challenging hotspots (the purple one)
10:12
A hotspot, after it creates a challenge (the green one), it starts to wait for that challenge to show up in the Blockchain. After it shows up, then it selects a random hotspot to challenge, dials it and sends the challenge. Then, the challengee and the witnesses, all need to send the receipt back to the challenger. If the challengee doesn't send the beacon receipt, the challenge does not show up in the Blockchain (the purple one) (edited)
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Which I agree, however last_poc_challenge I was under the impression only updated when the poc_receipt was on the blockchain. But it appears it's attached to the poc_request ... with that being said it does appear that it's not being restricted by the last_poc_challenge like I had expected earlier... I guess the only next possible answer is if there's two hotspots sharing the same IP address maybe? And the blockchain is forwarding all requests to that one? When it comes to his challenges - he should always get the beaconers poc_receipt as long as he's able to send it to the beaconer. Since that's how TCP connections work. Unless the challenger's connection times out before the poc_receipt is returned. So the fact he's able to create_challenges but the challengee can't return that receipt is ... well interesting. If the following IP address is correct for the hotspot /ip4/75.83.206.202/tcp/44158 then that'd be the only explanation that I'd have. (edited)
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Also FWIW the (green) created challenge is actually the poc_request being accepted by the CG.. The miner then needs to pick up that approved transaction (ie finds it in a subsequent block) then it's able to actually create the challenge for the challengee. The (purple) one is the receipt that the beaconer received the request to beacon. From what we know, there's multiple points of failure all hard to see unless you can view the console.log of the miner. 1) The miner can't see the approval (green) poc_request on a subsequent block 2) it see's the approval but can't dial out to the beaconer (possible if peerbook isn't up to date for challengee) but if it fails it "should" try again immediately. Three times before constructing a new challenge right away... right away as in within poc_interval.. 3) it's able to send it to the the challengee (beaconer) but the established TCP connection closes before the beaconer can return it's poc_receipt resulting in that challenge being dropped. But all of these issues don't have to deal with "it" being able to beacon itself. Unless of course the above is now true for the hotspot that's trying to challenge his miner. (As in the rolls are flipped now)... therefore, either he's being blocked by the IP bloom filter (the IP is being used for two hotspots) or the challenger is having the same issues he's having on the sending challenges issue above... (edited)
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Yes, that's it. But without the log from the miners, it's hard to know exactly what is happening. Also, I think the challengee sends the beacon receipt to the challenger on a different connection. Most probably it's multiple hotspots on the same network and the challengee is sending the receipt back to the wrong miner as you said. This is why I asked @KeithR if there's any other hotspot on the same network
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ricopt5
Yes, that's it. But without the log from the miners, it's hard to know exactly what is happening. Also, I think the challengee sends the beacon receipt to the challenger on a different connection. Most probably it's multiple hotspots on the same network and the challengee is sending the receipt back to the wrong miner as you said. This is why I asked @KeithR if there's any other hotspot on the same network
The challengee sends the receipt back on the inbound connection from the challenger so the challengee doesn't need to know the challengers listen_addrs just the challenger needs to know the challengee -- wow this sentence sounded better in my head.. it's a loop of sorts (edited)
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Anthonyra
The challengee sends the receipt back on the inbound connection from the challenger so the challengee doesn't need to know the challengers listen_addrs just the challenger needs to know the challengee -- wow this sentence sounded better in my head.. it's a loop of sorts (edited)
Actually no. The way that the beaconer knows the challenger address is via the challenge (the green thing on the explorer) that it gets from the blockchain, and it the dials that address to send the beacon receipt, and of course it needs to lookup the listen address in the peer book. The challenger sends the onion key hash to the challengee, and then the challengee looks up in the blochain the challenge request with that same onion key hash, when it's found, it's knows now the challenger address because it's also there in the challenge request (I've checked the code) But, I've also caught my miner challenging a hotspot, receiving both the beacon receipt and witnesses receipts, and then submitting the PoC receipt to the Blockchain, but in the explorer the PoC receipt (the purple one) never showed up (edited)
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Wow. I missed a lot while watching tv this morning! Only one hotspot on the network.
11:47
Checking to see if my friend is at this location for work today (he works at two different places throughout the week.
11:47
Bummer, he is not. Checking if he can stop by.
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ricopt5
Actually no. The way that the beaconer knows the challenger address is via the challenge (the green thing on the explorer) that it gets from the blockchain, and it the dials that address to send the beacon receipt, and of course it needs to lookup the listen address in the peer book. The challenger sends the onion key hash to the challengee, and then the challengee looks up in the blochain the challenge request with that same onion key hash, when it's found, it's knows now the challenger address because it's also there in the challenge request (I've checked the code) But, I've also caught my miner challenging a hotspot, receiving both the beacon receipt and witnesses receipts, and then submitting the PoC receipt to the Blockchain, but in the explorer the PoC receipt (the purple one) never showed up (edited)
To be clear, my understanding is based on what was told to me from a core developer when it comes to the libp2p library. Yes the challenger is hardcoded in the packet but it's more for the "witnesses" and not the challengee since the challengee should maintain an active TCP connection with the inbound request.. To verify this I'd need to dig into how libp2p handles inbound connections and well I'm okay with trusting what I've been told earlier since in a couple months it'll be obsolete anyways.
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So I CAN have the hotspot rebooted (disconnect the PoE line) today. Can NOT get anyone on the roof today to get the Helium diagnostic report. I MIGHT be able to get someone to get on a browser and connect to the Nebra hotspot. Given this, what do you guys want me to do? (edited)
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Anthonyra
To be clear, my understanding is based on what was told to me from a core developer when it comes to the libp2p library. Yes the challenger is hardcoded in the packet but it's more for the "witnesses" and not the challengee since the challengee should maintain an active TCP connection with the inbound request.. To verify this I'd need to dig into how libp2p handles inbound connections and well I'm okay with trusting what I've been told earlier since in a couple months it'll be obsolete anyways.
I stand corrected. I just checked the code and you're right. I was confusing it with witnessing which does use the onion key hash. Can't wait for light hotspots... Seriously
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KeithR
So I CAN have the hotspot rebooted (disconnect the PoE line) today. Can NOT get anyone on the roof today to get the Helium diagnostic report. I MIGHT be able to get someone to get on a browser and connect to the Nebra hotspot. Given this, what do you guys want me to do? (edited)
Reboot it. Also, can you change it's the public IP?
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ricopt5
I stand corrected. I just checked the code and you're right. I was confusing it with witnessing which does use the onion key hash. Can't wait for light hotspots... Seriously
No worries, I don't want to come off sounding like a know it all! But the current system is very confusing to say the least. I also can second the notation for light hotspots
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ricopt5
Reboot it. Also, can you change it's the public IP?
These are the two actions I'd recommend also, but give each one sometime to propagate @KeithR (edited)
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ricopt5
Reboot it. Also, can you change it's the public IP?
No. It is the IP address of the pharmacy that owns the building. Maybe, and I mean maybe in the very low percentage chance of maybe, I can have the pharmacy reboot their router. (edited)
12:04
Which of the two is more important?
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KeithR
No. It is the IP address of the pharmacy that owns the building. Maybe, and I mean maybe in the very low percentage chance of maybe, I can have the pharmacy reboot their router. (edited)
I'd try a simple reboot to start then.. if you see this behavior still then we can dig a little deeper. I'd give it a week based on current gossip issues also (edited)
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I might be able to get it rebooted by an employee that is in the pharmacy...give me a bit.
12:08
Good news. The one guy that can actually reboot the pharmacy's router is heading into work shortly.
12:09
I can probably have them reboot the router at closing time.
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KeithR
I can probably have them reboot the router at closing time.
Awesome, also hopefully fixes the issue! Now unless you read this HIP or once the HIP is implemented do you think you'd have been concerned with getting this hotspot back up to speed per se?
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Anthonyra
Awesome, also hopefully fixes the issue! Now unless you read this HIP or once the HIP is implemented do you think you'd have been concerned with getting this hotspot back up to speed per se?
I have been trying to get this hotspot up to snuff since the beginning.
12:21
There are only three of my hotspots that are not running optimally. One I did on Thursday and I am waiting on the host to configure their wifi network. The second is a Spectrum user NOT using the Spectrum wifi router; Spectrum doesn't actually forward all of the ports, even if your third party router say it is doing so, unless you are using their wifi router. The third is this one.
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Anthonyra
Awesome, also hopefully fixes the issue! Now unless you read this HIP or once the HIP is implemented do you think you'd have been concerned with getting this hotspot back up to speed per se?
So do both? I will have them reboot the hotspot as soon as the guy gets to work and calls me. I will then ask if he is willing to reboot their router at closing time.
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Anthonyra
Awesome, also hopefully fixes the issue! Now unless you read this HIP or once the HIP is implemented do you think you'd have been concerned with getting this hotspot back up to speed per se?
This HIP is helping me because you two are associated with it and are the only two that seem to be able to help me figure out what this damn hotspot is doing wrong.
12:24
Otherwise I would just be blaming Nebra.
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The only concern there is know which one was the actual fix.. doing more then one thing at a time is usually bad convention for troubleshooting. But I understand limitations. Now the other thing about rebooting the router is it depends on if their ISP gives a new IP when it does that? (edited)
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I am going to doubt that happens.
12:26
I am worried it is fixed.
12:26
But since they have just one IP for about 50 devices...there is a chance.
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If the router keeps the same IP then rebooting the router might be pointless..
12:27
You just don't want two hotspots to share the same IP if those other 50 devices aren't other helium hotspots you should be "fine"
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Anthonyra
Awesome, also hopefully fixes the issue! Now unless you read this HIP or once the HIP is implemented do you think you'd have been concerned with getting this hotspot back up to speed per se?
There are no other hotspots on the network. Phones of employees, some pharmacy-specific cloud client machines, and guest wifi. (edited)
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Hotspot just got rebooted. Router will get rebooted after closing; around 6:30 PM Pacific. (edited)
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Anthonyra
Awesome, also hopefully fixes the issue! Now unless you read this HIP or once the HIP is implemented do you think you'd have been concerned with getting this hotspot back up to speed per se?
I do get your question though. Since the hotspot is earning 0.5 token a day, is that enough for me not to bother doing things right (as in what this HIP is all about)? Since I am not cheating, then of course I want to do things right just to do things right. Also, I happen to know that when we first put up the hotspot, while it was being relayed, it was earning 0.8 - 1.2 tokens a day. So I know that doing it right will earn me more tokens than not doing it right. That said, this HIP being implemented would mean I would earn a pittance of what I am now earning (which would be minuscule of what I should be earning). In that regard, this HIP is kind of scary! Which brings up an interesting thought on my psyche. I am motivated to stop cheaters. Deny them of any gains. In fact, I would love if it was remotely possible to claw back any ill-gotten gains from before we caught them. But I do appreciate your more noble cause of trying to get said cheaters to come clean. To provide a path for them to do things correctly; to provide coverage for the network.
13:51
By the way, the blockchain height is 1155953 / 1155952
13:51
The Nebra diagnostic page claims "all is well".
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KeithR
I do get your question though. Since the hotspot is earning 0.5 token a day, is that enough for me not to bother doing things right (as in what this HIP is all about)? Since I am not cheating, then of course I want to do things right just to do things right. Also, I happen to know that when we first put up the hotspot, while it was being relayed, it was earning 0.8 - 1.2 tokens a day. So I know that doing it right will earn me more tokens than not doing it right. That said, this HIP being implemented would mean I would earn a pittance of what I am now earning (which would be minuscule of what I should be earning). In that regard, this HIP is kind of scary! Which brings up an interesting thought on my psyche. I am motivated to stop cheaters. Deny them of any gains. In fact, I would love if it was remotely possible to claw back any ill-gotten gains from before we caught them. But I do appreciate your more noble cause of trying to get said cheaters to come clean. To provide a path for them to do things correctly; to provide coverage for the network.
The HIP is kind of scary! But the goal is to provide a means to "notify" people and then "motivate" people to do the right thing for the network. Sadly, you can't just send out a notification on people's apps saying, "alright guys/girls, review your hotspots and make sure your configuration is right". They'll hop on their apps see their rewards and go, "0.5 HNT that's pretty good and rewards always goes down so 🤷‍♂️"... if you followed it by another notification that "hey, seriously you're hotspot isn't beaconing, you should fix this for your neighbors". Most will see what work is needed and what rewards they would get and give their neighbors the finger in most cases. Since they are doing "ok" why should they bend over backwards for their unknown neighbors even though most of their rewards are coming from their neighbors.
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I like that this HIP is trying to force hotspot owners to 'help thy neighbor"! Though I prefer the even higher goal of "support the network's purpose and ye shall be rewarded".
13:57
But...my personal tendency is "if we catch you cheating, we will fuck you over"! (edited)
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KeithR
I like that this HIP is trying to force hotspot owners to 'help thy neighbor"! Though I prefer the even higher goal of "support the network's purpose and ye shall be rewarded".
Yea, it's just that this misconfiguration is already rewarding enough to incentive people to keep it misconfigured..
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Great. Rebooting the router apparently has killed something. Now I can't connect to it. Will have to wait until tomorrow when the employee gets back to work.
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No change in IP address. Router reboot caused some disconnect with the hotspot (it is connected to the network via some mesh thing from Netgear). PoE reboot this morning has the hotspot back up but no gossip yet on network so still showing offline on explorer but heliumstatus.io sees that it is up. portchecker.io confirms I can ping the hotspot. So I wait for gossiping to occur.
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Any chance my hotspot's issues is evidence of Spectrum not actually forwarding all ports unless their wifi router is used? I have had several Spectrum home installs that wouldn't work unless the hotspot was directly off the Spectrum wifi router.
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Your hotspot is correctly forwarded, I can connect to it successfully via p2p
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ricopt5
Your hotspot is correctly forwarded, I can connect to it successfully via p2p
Yes but...explorer is showing it as relayed again and still no beacons. Will wait a day or two to see if something happens.
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KeithR
Yes but...explorer is showing it as relayed again and still no beacons. Will wait a day or two to see if something happens.
Sadly explorer relies on gossip and well gossip travels pretty slow across the network.. it might have been relayed before your poe reboot. But if port checker is showing it’s open then your inbound is all set. It could be a waiting game at this point. From what I’ve seen 2 days should be enough to see if something is still wrong.
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KeithR
Yes but...explorer is showing it as relayed again and still no beacons. Will wait a day or two to see if something happens.
If someone can connect to your IP address directly from the outside, like @ricopt5 said he could, then that is much better evidence of than what explorer says.
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*&%$ ! <very loud curse word> Rebooted the network router. Rebooted the hotspot. heliumstatus.io and portchecker.io can ping the device. Explorer shows all is fine after a few days. Everything seem correct with port forwarding on the network router. Same outcome; boatloads of beacons but zero witnesses. Anyone have any ideas on what to do? Any thoughts on calling Spectrum (pharmacy has business class service) and ask them to flush something? Or is this Nebra's fault? (edited)
13:40
Different channel I should move my question?
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@KeithR If you're talking about this actual HIP-42, this is the right place. If you're talking about troubleshooting a device (a hotspot) then your question does not belong here. (edited)
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krby
@KeithR If you're talking about this actual HIP-42, this is the right place. If you're talking about troubleshooting a device (a hotspot) then your question does not belong here. (edited)
We were talking about troubleshooting my hotspot because it is an example of a perfectly legit hotspot with a very motivated and knowledgable owner that would be significantly affected by this HIP and arguably would be affected in a manner inconsistent to the purpose of the hotspot. (edited)
21:32
And if a legitimate hotspot with such a good owner was to be false positively affected by the HIP, it brings into question of whether the HIP is ready for implementation or not.
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21:33
And my issue is so esoteric apparently, I need very engaged experts to help me troubleshoot the issue. And two of such experts were here.
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KeithR
And if a legitimate hotspot with such a good owner was to be false positively affected by the HIP, it brings into question of whether the HIP is ready for implementation or not.
Ahh! that makes sense, I didn't read the history.
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@Anthonyra The HIP mentions 240 as the poc_interval yet its 360 at the moment. Would it be best to be updated for the current value, include examples for both or confirm 240 is an example calc not a fixed value?
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waveform
@Anthonyra The HIP mentions 240 as the poc_interval yet its 360 at the moment. Would it be best to be updated for the current value, include examples for both or confirm 240 is an example calc not a fixed value?
I tried my best to explain that the math would be based on the chain variables during the implementation and that the number given in the HIP are examples based on current values. I did update it a few times but helium continues to change that one in particular a lot lately… I’ll need to sit down and do a once over before the vote so I’ll try and make it even more clear
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Anthonyra
I tried my best to explain that the math would be based on the chain variables during the implementation and that the number given in the HIP are examples based on current values. I did update it a few times but helium continues to change that one in particular a lot lately… I’ll need to sit down and do a once over before the vote so I’ll try and make it even more clear
Many people view as fact that whatever the value was when they first read a hip17 explanation is THE value. Ive seen people tell me they "expect" to beacon every 4 or 6 hours depending on what they read sometime in the past. Blows their mind when I say currently its an AVERAGE period of every 5 hours 43 mins (edited)
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What kind of timeline could we expect after the temperature check for this HIP would be implemented? Shouldn't we wait until we have light hotspots and clear up current network issues?
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I have about 40 hotspots that haven’t beaconed in over a month. How do I fix them all?
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Yes exactly. Due to network issues or something out of my control these hotspots are not beaconing -at all-. So we will be punished more?
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A hotspot that would provide good coverage and beneficial to the network would also be the one witnessing waaaayyyyyyyy more beacons than crappy ones indoor, I don’t see how this HIP would work well
07:22
This hip harms us more than gamers
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I’ve voted no
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07:22
Unless I’m missing something here
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In reading through all the troubleshooting above, it sounds to me like the "bloom filter" would prevent successfully deploying a large number of hotspots across an enterprise network? I manage one that covers about 3500 hectares, but all the devices on it connect to the internet via 2 public IPs. So, if I were to distribute a bunch of hotspots inside my firewall, would they be able to beacon and witness one another, since they would be sharing only one or two outward-facing IPs? (edited)
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zero
This hip harms us more than gamers
beemjack577 01/09/2022 7:23 AM
i agree
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There is an understanding that currently there are some network related issues when it comes to beaconing. With that in mind there is built in buffers (safeguards) that are recommended. The real important take away for this HIP is that the network needs hotspots that beacon and witness. The reason it's needed is Proof of Coverage. In regards to 0 beacons in a month, that even in worse case network situations is far from normal and tells me there's more then just network problems to blame. To anyone who says this harms them more then gamers please take a look at this handy tool I made to help https://etl.dewi.org/question/624-poc-witness-scaling-by-name-hip-42
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Plutus
In reading through all the troubleshooting above, it sounds to me like the "bloom filter" would prevent successfully deploying a large number of hotspots across an enterprise network? I manage one that covers about 3500 hectares, but all the devices on it connect to the internet via 2 public IPs. So, if I were to distribute a bunch of hotspots inside my firewall, would they be able to beacon and witness one another, since they would be sharing only one or two outward-facing IPs? (edited)
with only 2 IP's you are already not beaconing a lot as amount of beacons are limited by IP
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Plutus
In reading through all the troubleshooting above, it sounds to me like the "bloom filter" would prevent successfully deploying a large number of hotspots across an enterprise network? I manage one that covers about 3500 hectares, but all the devices on it connect to the internet via 2 public IPs. So, if I were to distribute a bunch of hotspots inside my firewall, would they be able to beacon and witness one another, since they would be sharing only one or two outward-facing IPs? (edited)
If you do that only 1 of those hotspots will beacon.
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beemjack577 01/09/2022 7:24 AM
i had 131 witnesses 2 weeks ago, something is now wrong with the network and now im down to 0 witnesses!!! not good for hip42 ill be on the list for no reason! (edited)
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beemjack577
i had 131 witnesses 2 weeks ago, something is now wrong with the network and now im down to 0 witnesses!!! not good for hip42 ill be on the list for no reason! (edited)
What troubleshooting have you done?
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Anthonyra
What troubleshooting have you done?
beemjack577 01/09/2022 7:25 AM
#poc-discussion #diy-packet-forwarder
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Anthonyra
What troubleshooting have you done?
#diy-packet-forwarder #poc-discussion There are 3000+ units affected
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I echo some of the earlier comments AGAINST this hip. It’s clearly targeted at the best setups on the network on towers / mountains / high rises etc which provide the highest quality coverage to the network. These setups can cover huge areas with a single hotspot and therefor reduce the number of hotspots needed for the network overall. If this passes, you ensure that more devices will be needed which increases environmental impacts. Personally, I am on a campus which shares a single IP. There are other devices on this IP in other buildings and we don’t have any overlap in coverage but we don’t beacon very much because we all share beacons. This would crush many people.
👎 1
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Anthonyra
There is an understanding that currently there are some network related issues when it comes to beaconing. With that in mind there is built in buffers (safeguards) that are recommended. The real important take away for this HIP is that the network needs hotspots that beacon and witness. The reason it's needed is Proof of Coverage. In regards to 0 beacons in a month, that even in worse case network situations is far from normal and tells me there's more then just network problems to blame. To anyone who says this harms them more then gamers please take a look at this handy tool I made to help https://etl.dewi.org/question/624-poc-witness-scaling-by-name-hip-42
It doesn’t work, says there’s an error
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beemjack577 01/09/2022 7:26 AM
are hips being tested at this moment without the knowledge of the community?
🚫 1
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Anthonyra
If you do that only 1 of those hotspots will beacon.
Thanks. I haven't done it yet. Was considering the possibility, though. So.. bottom line is that it must be 1:1 for device/IP? That's kind of an unfortunate decision, no? I mean there are lots of huge campus environments that would be prime candidates for building out the network that are basically kicked out of the game by this design.
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Plutus
Thanks. I haven't done it yet. Was considering the possibility, though. So.. bottom line is that it must be 1:1 for device/IP? That's kind of an unfortunate decision, no? I mean there are lots of huge campus environments that would be prime candidates for building out the network that are basically kicked out of the game by this design.
VPN should solve it. But at extra costs.
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donp
I echo some of the earlier comments AGAINST this hip. It’s clearly targeted at the best setups on the network on towers / mountains / high rises etc which provide the highest quality coverage to the network. These setups can cover huge areas with a single hotspot and therefor reduce the number of hotspots needed for the network overall. If this passes, you ensure that more devices will be needed which increases environmental impacts. Personally, I am on a campus which shares a single IP. There are other devices on this IP in other buildings and we don’t have any overlap in coverage but we don’t beacon very much because we all share beacons. This would crush many people.
More devices with worse quality of coverage
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Plutus
Thanks. I haven't done it yet. Was considering the possibility, though. So.. bottom line is that it must be 1:1 for device/IP? That's kind of an unfortunate decision, no? I mean there are lots of huge campus environments that would be prime candidates for building out the network that are basically kicked out of the game by this design.
That 1:1 IP is there for a reason and is currently in place not part of this HIP.
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donp
I echo some of the earlier comments AGAINST this hip. It’s clearly targeted at the best setups on the network on towers / mountains / high rises etc which provide the highest quality coverage to the network. These setups can cover huge areas with a single hotspot and therefor reduce the number of hotspots needed for the network overall. If this passes, you ensure that more devices will be needed which increases environmental impacts. Personally, I am on a campus which shares a single IP. There are other devices on this IP in other buildings and we don’t have any overlap in coverage but we don’t beacon very much because we all share beacons. This would crush many people.
beemjack577 01/09/2022 7:27 AM
AGREED! as its already accuring!
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Anthonyra
What troubleshooting have you done?
Tired it. Got a big red x.
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donp
Tired it. Got a big red x.
write hotspot's name with - dashes in between the words
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Anthonyra
That 1:1 IP is there for a reason and is currently in place not part of this HIP.
Yeah dude but this layers on top of that is a way that will crush a LOT of people.
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Anthonyra
That 1:1 IP is there for a reason and is currently in place not part of this HIP.
Yes, I understand the reason behind it. What I'm suggesting is that perhaps we ought to use a better approach to weeding out the "stuffers". Because, seriously.. this essentially restricts deployment to home hobbyists. No enterprises can participate, even though they cover large swaths of territory and host absolutely huge numbers of IOT devices that would love to take advantage of the local deployment. 🤷‍♂️
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donp
Yeah dude but this layers on top of that is a way that will crush a LOT of people.
If you hotspot is performing the way it's intended.. beacons and witnesses it won't and that's the major point of this HIP. It's apparent that most setups don't pull their weight on both sides of Proof Of Coverage. This is just one suggested HIP to require more stringent setup requirements. The other is to redo the reward pools making beacons worth more then witnesses (since they are cryptographically harder to spoof, redup, or replay) but instead suggesting that this was provided instead.
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Plutus
Yes, I understand the reason behind it. What I'm suggesting is that perhaps we ought to use a better approach to weeding out the "stuffers". Because, seriously.. this essentially restricts deployment to home hobbyists. No enterprises can participate, even though they cover large swaths of territory and host absolutely huge numbers of IOT devices that would love to take advantage of the local deployment. 🤷‍♂️
I've ran this through handfuls of tower setups and they all pass, the ones that didn't weren't configured correctly or not even port forwarded.
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Anthonyra
There is an understanding that currently there are some network related issues when it comes to beaconing. With that in mind there is built in buffers (safeguards) that are recommended. The real important take away for this HIP is that the network needs hotspots that beacon and witness. The reason it's needed is Proof of Coverage. In regards to 0 beacons in a month, that even in worse case network situations is far from normal and tells me there's more then just network problems to blame. To anyone who says this harms them more then gamers please take a look at this handy tool I made to help https://etl.dewi.org/question/624-poc-witness-scaling-by-name-hip-42
How do we use this? I’m getting an error that asks for hotspot name, but I’m not seeing a place to input that.
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clemsonteg
How do we use this? I’m getting an error that asks for hotspot name, but I’m not seeing a place to input that.
Make sure you use the name-name-name pattern
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So we are being punished because one part the equation is random and out of our control?
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Anthonyra
I've ran this through handfuls of tower setups and they all pass, the ones that didn't weren't configured correctly or not even port forwarded.
I think you miss my point.
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It’s not really my fault if I don’t beacon for a day or 2
07:34
So I should just make my setup worse so it witness less and provide worse coverage?
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Anthonyra
Make sure you use the name-name-name pattern
Do I add the name as part of the URL or on the page itself?
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Anthonyra
If you hotspot is performing the way it's intended.. beacons and witnesses it won't and that's the major point of this HIP. It's apparent that most setups don't pull their weight on both sides of Proof Of Coverage. This is just one suggested HIP to require more stringent setup requirements. The other is to redo the reward pools making beacons worth more then witnesses (since they are cryptographically harder to spoof, redup, or replay) but instead suggesting that this was provided instead.
#diy-packet-forwarder everyone in there was performing and an update happened that completely obliterated. I used to beacon on average every 6-8 hours and 7 day witness avg was ~700. So unless the network works smoothly for a few@month. Implantation or a vote of this HIP is a bit premature
💯 1
10k 2
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clemsonteg
Do I add the name as part of the URL or on the page itself?
You could also try using the public address with https://etl.dewi.org/question/461-poc-witness-scaling-hip-42
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Aigen
#diy-packet-forwarder everyone in there was performing and an update happened that completely obliterated. I used to beacon on average every 6-8 hours and 7 day witness avg was ~700. So unless the network works smoothly for a few@month. Implantation or a vote of this HIP is a bit premature
This. Voting no for now.
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Anthonyra
I've ran this through handfuls of tower setups and they all pass, the ones that didn't weren't configured correctly or not even port forwarded.
The swath of land behind my firewalls takes about 1.5 to 2 hours to drive the perimeter. Not only that, I have literally thousands of IOT devices inside it. It's exactly the type of scenario where Helium should want to have lots of hotspots deployed, but I have no economic incentive to do so because the 'bloom filter' removes it. I mean, seriously, the ISPs gave up on the idea of 1:1 device:IP a couple decades ago, because it's just not feasible.
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Anthonyra
You could also try using the public address with https://etl.dewi.org/question/461-poc-witness-scaling-hip-42
Thanks. Maybe I’m missing something. I’m not seeing a space to input any thing. Just an error that it’s missing the required parameter.
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clemsonteg
Thanks. Maybe I’m missing something. I’m not seeing a space to input any thing. Just an error that it’s missing the required parameter.
Same
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Plutus
The swath of land behind my firewalls takes about 1.5 to 2 hours to drive the perimeter. Not only that, I have literally thousands of IOT devices inside it. It's exactly the type of scenario where Helium should want to have lots of hotspots deployed, but I have no economic incentive to do so because the 'bloom filter' removes it. I mean, seriously, the ISPs gave up on the idea of 1:1 device:IP a couple decades ago, because it's just not feasible.
They also don't reward users for establishing the network for themselves...
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Anthonyra
They also don't reward users for establishing the network for themselves...
Okay. Clearly NGMI. Moving on to next project.
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donp
Same
It's on the top of the page, under the title. It's a blank field that you can enter your hotspots name into. https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/9x0ZneN8CHjnfRqC4gJKavG9OJfR9GQqzfTmNgevQ74/https/i.gyazo.com/dfb32ca9d28ca3e40d58c4b75e3ea7cb.png
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Anthonyra
They also don't reward users for establishing the network for themselves...
Don’t think that’s “establishing the network for themselves”
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how long after ip change do i start to see activity please?
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F22Raptor
how long after ip change do i start to see activity please?
#general
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This is about Proof Of Coverage, it rewards you for building the network.
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And he did
07:42
For a farm
07:42
Where no one else did
07:43
Shouldn’t he be rewarded for that?
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donp
Same
I figured it out. At the end of the url, add ?name=your-hotspot-name
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The IP filter is in place since the early days of the network. There were two big players nicknamed after the towns they spoofed. Modesto in California and Port Huron in Michigan. They were able to mine over 500,000 HNT while not providing any coverage. All of their 500+ hotspots were sharing the same IP address and were setup in what people started to call "closet" farms. The IP filter isn't part of this HIP. The filter has been in place due to previous gaming issues.
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Anthonyra
The IP filter is in place since the early days of the network. There were two big players nicknamed after the towns they spoofed. Modesto in California and Port Huron in Michigan. They were able to mine over 500,000 HNT while not providing any coverage. All of their 500+ hotspots were sharing the same IP address and were setup in what people started to call "closet" farms. The IP filter isn't part of this HIP. The filter has been in place due to previous gaming issues.
Check #poc-discussion there is a cluster in NL that’s still operating under the same IP and making bank. So if that filter is in place it’s not working well
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Anthonyra
The IP filter is in place since the early days of the network. There were two big players nicknamed after the towns they spoofed. Modesto in California and Port Huron in Michigan. They were able to mine over 500,000 HNT while not providing any coverage. All of their 500+ hotspots were sharing the same IP address and were setup in what people started to call "closet" farms. The IP filter isn't part of this HIP. The filter has been in place due to previous gaming issues.
And it is still happening right now
07:46
Not to the same degree
07:46
But a lot of them are making above average
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So should it be removed and let the floodgates really open? I think not, but also not the discussion of this HIP
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This hip isn't to going to stop that as well? If you need a 2:1 ratio then you can just beam some of your beacons from your "closet farm" to a city where it is spoofed nearby to get the ratio right?
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Here is kind of a fundamental question - in the rest of the telecom industry the tower/mountain top / high rise type installs are the most valued because they provide the best coverage. I honestly don’t see the reason to punish those types of setups in the helium project.
passed 4
👍 1
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Sloth
This hip isn't to going to stop that as well? If you need a 2:1 ratio then you can just beam some of your beacons from your "closet farm" to a city where it is spoofed nearby to get the ratio right?
That's not the ratio suggested..
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What’s the ratio suggested?
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Plutus
The swath of land behind my firewalls takes about 1.5 to 2 hours to drive the perimeter. Not only that, I have literally thousands of IOT devices inside it. It's exactly the type of scenario where Helium should want to have lots of hotspots deployed, but I have no economic incentive to do so because the 'bloom filter' removes it. I mean, seriously, the ISPs gave up on the idea of 1:1 device:IP a couple decades ago, because it's just not feasible.
+120.83 dBm 01/09/2022 7:48 AM
IPv6 was supposed to solve this. It's too bad Helium has no support for IPv6 for some reason.
💯 1
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The ratio is in the HIP
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+120.83 dBm 01/09/2022 7:48 AM
Nor does it support using an alternative port number, for some reason.
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Anthonyra
It's on the top of the page, under the title. It's a blank field that you can enter your hotspots name into. https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/9x0ZneN8CHjnfRqC4gJKavG9OJfR9GQqzfTmNgevQ74/https/i.gyazo.com/dfb32ca9d28ca3e40d58c4b75e3ea7cb.png
Nice tool to check if you are impacted. Do you know why my diy crashes it out maybe isn't found?
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If you are running a middleman you can still beacon. It might require some technical expertise but im sure those spoofers will just pay someone to get it to work. Then all it’s going to impact are those that actually have a legit setup
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gradoj
Nice tool to check if you are impacted. Do you know why my diy crashes it out maybe isn't found?
That's a good question, I'm not sure... I can take a look to see maybe it's the way the blockchain handles DIY and thus how the ETL interprets them?
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+120.83 dBm 01/09/2022 7:53 AM
I think that right now there are way too many things that can keep a HS from beaconing as [often as] intended. I think that light hotspots need to come first before HIP-42 can be considered.
👍 2
07:53
And really light hotspots are a more appropriate prioritization of development resources IMO.
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gradoj
Nice tool to check if you are impacted. Do you know why my diy crashes it out maybe isn't found?
shouldn't be any difference. Just tried my DIY and it worked. Likely load?
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Joey
shouldn't be any difference. Just tried my DIY and it worked. Likely load?
Not sure. Other hotspots work for me. It is one of the impacted diy. Maybe related?
🤷‍♂️ 1
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+120.83 dBm
And really light hotspots are a more appropriate prioritization of development resources IMO.
to be clear, there is nothing about this vote that should be interpreted as setting priority. At least in my eyes.
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gradoj
Not sure. Other hotspots work for me. It is one of the impacted diy. Maybe related?
Does it say "error: banned"? Would clear a lot of things up 😛 /jk (edited)
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temperature check only
07:56
"Is this the right thing to do, regardless of timeline"
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+120.83 dBm 01/09/2022 7:57 AM
Is there a list somewhere of hotspots that would be impacted if HIP-42 were in effect now? (edited)
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I hate this HIP. Seriously, this project is like this. Helium says "Here are the rules. Go spend money and time to deploy." Then a little while later Helium says "Just kidding - we are going to totally change the rules now" (edited)
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disregard the following. going to repost the announcement for purposes of pinning.
07:58
🗳🌡️ Temperature check voting is now open to gauge community interest in HIP 42-Beacon/Witness Ratio, authored by @Anthonyra . HIP 42, if implemented, would regulate the number of witnesses a Hotspot is rewarded for based on the number of successful beacons. This rewards 2-way LoRaWAN coverage and as a secondary benefit offers to limit some gaming due to witness stuffing. • Read the HIP: https://github.com/helium/HIP/blob/master/0042-beacon-witness-ratio-witness-reward-limit.md • Vote at https://helium.vote/
Joey pinned a message to this channel. 01/09/2022 7:58 AM
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Anthonyra
You could also try using the public address with https://etl.dewi.org/question/461-poc-witness-scaling-hip-42
When I try this with my hotspots it says "No results!" Take a look. 112RxiNoXYqa31NiDM3Dc35HTvrmAjzmSc1Qh2v6WipKoNLuSTX1
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+120.83 dBm 01/09/2022 7:59 AM
So far I've seen 3 HIPs considered/debated, and I haven't liked any of them.
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JoeCrypto
When I try this with my hotspots it says "No results!" Take a look. 112RxiNoXYqa31NiDM3Dc35HTvrmAjzmSc1Qh2v6WipKoNLuSTX1
Is this a wallet or the hotspots public address?
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JoeCrypto
When I try this with my hotspots it says "No results!" Take a look. 112RxiNoXYqa31NiDM3Dc35HTvrmAjzmSc1Qh2v6WipKoNLuSTX1
Me too. I think it is cause they haven't beaconed in at least a week
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Anthonyra
Is this a wallet or the hotspots public address?
It's a hotspot address
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Might be erroring out on having no witnesses
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+120.83 dBm
Is there a list somewhere of hotspots that would be impacted if HIP-42 were in effect now? (edited)
+120.83 dBm 01/09/2022 8:01 AM
Well there should be IMO.
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Anthonyra
Is this a wallet or the hotspots public address?
It’s this hotspot. https://imgur.com/a/Mq0n7CP
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Am i understanding from the draft that currently we're expected to see 6 beacons per day on our miner?
08:02
(sent out that is)
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Ih8mypp
Am i understanding from the draft that currently we're expected to see 6 beacons per day on our miner?
The draft was written a while ago, it's based on the poc_challenge_interval which is now set at 360 versus the 240... With that being said the theoretical max is now 4. (edited)
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Anthonyra
The draft was written a while ago, it's based on the poc_challenge_interval which is now set at 360 versus the 240... With that being said the theoretical max is now 4. (edited)
Ah right, that makes more sense, thanks
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Sloth
Man, I feel so sorry for you.
Yea. Now I'm under contract for this location and it's earning almost nothing because of p2p
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These are real people with real lives with families to feed who have entered into binding lease agreements to deploy Helium equipment in absolutely the best spots possible. This HIP would pull the rug out from those that have deployed the best setups in the network. This will take a lot of energy out of this project by the people currently most passionate about it.
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pl
These are real people with real lives with families to feed who have entered into binding lease agreements to deploy Helium equipment in absolutely the best spots possible. This HIP would pull the rug out from those that have deployed the best setups in the network. This will take a lot of energy out of this project by the people currently most passionate about it.
What makes the spot "best" ?
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crudivore
What makes the spot "best" ?
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pl
These are real people with real lives with families to feed who have entered into binding lease agreements to deploy Helium equipment in absolutely the best spots possible. This HIP would pull the rug out from those that have deployed the best setups in the network. This will take a lot of energy out of this project by the people currently most passionate about it.
+120.83 dBm 01/09/2022 8:06 AM
Welcome to democracy, where two idiots can trump a genius.
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So I invested a lot of money on a good location and have to pay rent for the next 3 years , and now hip42 will drop my rewards with a factor of XX ? This Hip sucks !
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JoeCrypto
It’s this hotspot. https://imgur.com/a/Mq0n7CP
That is a brilliant setup
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FezzFest
That is a brilliant setup
Thanks. Too bad it's crippled by helium.
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Before you guys deploy hip after hip maybe you can deploy a Fix for those hotspots that have no becons
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+120.83 dBm 01/09/2022 8:08 AM
I have also invested in tower locations providing legitimate coverage. If I find that those setups are impacted by this HIP, I think I will bail out of the project and resell my hotspots to greater fools.
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Well the good news is, if you don't like the HIP, you can vote no on it, and votes are weighted by the amount of HNT you hold. If you've got a great spot for earning rewards, your voice will be louder than the guys' who don't have great spots
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crudivore
What makes the spot "best" ?
Generally speaking what I mean by that are super high locations with tremendous line of sight views of major population centers (where IOT devices are likely to be located) with optimized antennas and other gear to provide the best coverage possible.
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pl
Generally speaking what I mean by that are super high locations with tremendous line of sight views of major population centers (where IOT devices are likely to be located) with optimized antennas and other gear to provide the best coverage possible.
Then those shouldn't be impacted, right? Because if they provide coverage, and send out beacons to verify it, they'll have naturally high witness counts, yeah?
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+120.83 dBm
I have also invested in tower locations providing legitimate coverage. If I find that those setups are impacted by this HIP, I think I will bail out of the project and resell my hotspots to greater fools.
Check out if your hotspot setups would be impacted or not here https://etl.dewi.org/question/461-poc-witness-scaling-hip-42
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crudivore
Then those shouldn't be impacted, right? Because if they provide coverage, and send out beacons to verify it, they'll have naturally high witness counts, yeah?
+120.83 dBm 01/09/2022 8:09 AM
If beacons are sent. That system isn't working very well.
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crudivore
Well the good news is, if you don't like the HIP, you can vote no on it, and votes are weighted by the amount of HNT you hold. If you've got a great spot for earning rewards, your voice will be louder than the guys' who don't have great spots
You know people can just buy HNT and vote too right?
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Carl-bot BOT 01/09/2022 8:09 AM
No discussions on buying or selling HNT please!
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crudivore
Check out if your hotspot setups would be impacted or not here https://etl.dewi.org/question/461-poc-witness-scaling-hip-42
+120.83 dBm 01/09/2022 8:10 AM
I'd love to, but that site requires a login for some reason.
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Paying for votes is so wrong
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crudivore
Then those shouldn't be impacted, right? Because if they provide coverage, and send out beacons to verify it, they'll have naturally high witness counts, yeah?
But beaconing is random and broken right now
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pl
These are real people with real lives with families to feed who have entered into binding lease agreements to deploy Helium equipment in absolutely the best spots possible. This HIP would pull the rug out from those that have deployed the best setups in the network. This will take a lot of energy out of this project by the people currently most passionate about it.
Anthonyra has said no tower setup he analyzed was impacted
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+120.83 dBm
I'd love to, but that site requires a login for some reason.
I'm trying to work out how to login there without a Google account, without any success
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Petzl
Paying for votes is so wrong
And nothing is stopping anyone from doing that
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gradoj
Anthonyra has said no tower setup he analyzed was impacted
How does he know which hotspots are on towers?
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beemjack577 01/09/2022 8:11 AM
MY HOTSPOT wont get challenged at all!! so how will HIP-42 help me? how? helium team hasnt even addressed the 3k+ hotpsots that wont beacon,wont get challenged , witnessing -85%. HIP-42 shouldnt even be a discussion
10k 5
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gradoj
Anthonyra has said no tower setup he analyzed was impacted
There has been some but are now fixed... the root cause wasn't the networks fault usually stemming from their local network setups. (edited)
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+120.83 dBm
I'd love to, but that site requires a login for some reason.
It's dewi.org - the guys behind the helium network, it isn't a malicious website made by some fly-by-night guy
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Well they're not impacted now, my setups on towers have been f*cked since the 1st of January
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08:11
Same as @JoeCrypto's
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crudivore
It's dewi.org - the guys behind the helium network, it isn't a malicious website made by some fly-by-night guy
+120.83 dBm 01/09/2022 8:11 AM
It shouldn't require a login.
🤡 1
08:12
"trust me" is not good enough.
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crudivore
Then those shouldn't be impacted, right? Because if they provide coverage, and send out beacons to verify it, they'll have naturally high witness counts, yeah?
From what I understand, Helium and its investors own most of the HNT - so they are effectively the ones controlling the vote. I will vote NO with my little tiny amount of HNT as I hope many others on this channel will also but let's be honest about who ultimately controls the outcome here and it's not the "community".
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+120.83 dBm 01/09/2022 8:13 AM
Why in the world should I have to login to view some data?
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We buy hotspots,cables,antennas,to provide Helium as much coverege as possible and you make fun of us by implementing Hip's Poc etc why dont you better take care of those who are gaming and take from ouer rewards
👍 1
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+120.83 dBm 01/09/2022 8:13 AM
Data that is important for this vote.
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+120.83 dBm
It shouldn't require a login.
beemjack577 01/09/2022 8:13 AM
you are correct. most sites we click are taking our data.
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But you'll see that this HIP is gonna pass because everyone thinks it'll fix the Pisces farms and increase their earnings
👎 1
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Pisces and cotx@FezzFest
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FezzFest
But you'll see that this HIP is gonna pass because everyone thinks it'll fix the Pisces farms and increase their earnings
lol and those people will find a way to circumvent. Eventually the network will just be made up of spoofers
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pl
From what I understand, Helium and its investors own most of the HNT - so they are effectively the ones controlling the vote. I will vote NO with my little tiny amount of HNT as I hope many others on this channel will also but let's be honest about who ultimately controls the outcome here and it's not the "community".
Illusions
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+120.83 dBm
Data that is important for this vote.
It's all publicly available info that it pulls from, you can calculate it yourself by hand if you prefer
💯 1
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+120.83 dBm
Data that is important for this vote.
Create a burner Gmail or go away. It'll be fixed at some point
😆 1
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Here's the SQL query that it builds off of to tell you if you're projected to be impacted or not WITH witnessed_list AS ( SELECT witness_address, COUNT(transmitter_address) as witnessed FROM challenge_receipts_parsed WHERE block > (select min(height) from blocks where timestamp > now() - INTERVAL '5 DAYS') and witness_address = {{address}} GROUP BY witness_address ) SELECT c.transmitter_name, c.transmitter_address, COUNT(DISTINCT c.witness_address) as witnesses, w.witnessed, (COUNT(DISTINCT c.witness_address) * 6 * 2) as limit, (COUNT(DISTINCT c.witness_address) * 6 / 5 * 2) as daily_limit, w.witnessed > (COUNT(DISTINCT c.witness_address) * 6 * 2) as limited FROM challenge_receipts_parsed as c INNER JOIN witnessed_list as w ON c.transmitter_address = w.witness_address WHERE block > (select min(height) from blocks where timestamp > now() - INTERVAL '5 DAYS') and transmitter_address = {{address}} GROUP BY transmitter_name, transmitter_address, w.witnessed;
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Apparently, someone already voted for HIP42 with 10K HNT?
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crudivore
Here's the SQL query that it builds off of to tell you if you're projected to be impacted or not WITH witnessed_list AS ( SELECT witness_address, COUNT(transmitter_address) as witnessed FROM challenge_receipts_parsed WHERE block > (select min(height) from blocks where timestamp > now() - INTERVAL '5 DAYS') and witness_address = {{address}} GROUP BY witness_address ) SELECT c.transmitter_name, c.transmitter_address, COUNT(DISTINCT c.witness_address) as witnesses, w.witnessed, (COUNT(DISTINCT c.witness_address) * 6 * 2) as limit, (COUNT(DISTINCT c.witness_address) * 6 / 5 * 2) as daily_limit, w.witnessed > (COUNT(DISTINCT c.witness_address) * 6 * 2) as limited FROM challenge_receipts_parsed as c INNER JOIN witnessed_list as w ON c.transmitter_address = w.witness_address WHERE block > (select min(height) from blocks where timestamp > now() - INTERVAL '5 DAYS') and transmitter_address = {{address}} GROUP BY transmitter_name, transmitter_address, w.witnessed;
Can you write one that will show how many hotspots will be affected and a list of them? Could you also write one to show hotspots that are online but have not beaconed in 7+ days?
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JoeCrypto
Can you write one that will show how many hotspots will be affected and a list of them? Could you also write one to show hotspots that are online but have not beaconed in 7+ days?
I copy/pasted that from the tool on dewi.org - I don't write code anymore (edited)
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gradoj
Create a burner Gmail or go away. It'll be fixed at some point
It says 'sign in with email', any place you can register via regular email?
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beemjack577 01/09/2022 8:18 AM
need to make a hip about what can be tested/activated without a vote!!!! (edited)
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beemjack577
need to make a hip about what can be tested/activated without a vote!!!! (edited)
Ok, go ahead and write it
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crudivore
Ok, go ahead and write it
beemjack577 01/09/2022 8:19 AM
dont have the time!
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Excuses excuses
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Ih8mypp
It says 'sign in with email', any place you can register via regular email?
I've heard only Gmail currently working
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gradoj
I've heard only Gmail currently working
Aight too bad, tnx anyway
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gradoj
I've heard only Gmail currently working
I believe its a limitation set upon by Metabase which is used to visualize the postgresDB used from the DeWi ETL fwiw
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Where do you run the sql command?
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Ken
Where do you run the sql command?
On the website we've been linking: https://etl.dewi.org/question/461-poc-witness-scaling-hip-42 If you want to calculate it by hand, you don't run the sql, you read the sql, see what it's doing, and pull the data manually from the API
08:26
(or write your own tool to scrape the api if you're too weird about signing in)
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I’ll check it out. Just seems like this is a horrible idea all around
08:26
Anyone who spends the time to put the antenna on the roof, is going to be halted.
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Ken
Anyone who spends the time to put the antenna on the roof, is going to be halted.
A good roof anyway yeah
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I have an antenna on a roof and I won't be impacted.
08:28
Y'all are talking out your asses without doing any research, it looks like
08:28
Check explorer, what's your witness count? Do you witness more events on a daily basis than that number?
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crudivore
Y'all are talking out your asses without doing any research, it looks like
I have used the calculator to check my hotspots and more than half will be impacted some as much as 80 percent. Primarily because I share an IP with many other people on my campus and don’t beacon as much as others. (edited)
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donp
I have used the calculator to check my hotspots and more than half will be impacted some as much as 80 percent. Primarily because I share an IP with many other people on my campus and don’t beacon as much as others. (edited)
Those are some pretty terrible numbers, are you sure they are setup appropriately network wise? Oh okay, the shared IP makes sense for these results (edited)
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crudivore
I have an antenna on a roof and I won't be impacted.
Looking at 1 setup doesn’t mean research was also done. I have mine in on a roof and I got demolished to 0 beacons and going to 0 witnesses.
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Anthonyra
Those are some pretty terrible numbers, are you sure they are setup appropriately network wise? Oh okay, the shared IP makes sense for these results (edited)
But if I'm understanding correctly, that won't be an issue once light hotspots go into effect, correct? (edited)
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@donp If there's no other way for you to ensure a static public IP address for your hotspots, I'd recommend looking into this https://www.amazon.com/GL-iNET-GL-MT300N-V2-Repeater-300Mbps-Performance/dp/B073TSK26W/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3NWK2L0VT6ZV9&keywords=mango+vpn&qid=1641745970&sprefix=mango+vpn%2Caps%2C81&sr=8-1 Your issue "should" also disappear when we shift to light hotspots so take that into consideration for what you want to do moving forward. P.S - There is not an official release date yet for light hotspots, the best bet is it'll be #soon (edited)
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pl
These are real people with real lives with families to feed who have entered into binding lease agreements to deploy Helium equipment in absolutely the best spots possible. This HIP would pull the rug out from those that have deployed the best setups in the network. This will take a lot of energy out of this project by the people currently most passionate about it.
Yep.. Gonna be a lot of cheap hotspots on the secondary market
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Plutus
Yep.. Gonna be a lot of cheap hotspots on the secondary market
This is also just a temperature check, but feel free to do what's best for you
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Allways whe the network seems to finnaly working someone destroy it just fix it and leav it as is
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Anthonyra
@donp If there's no other way for you to ensure a static public IP address for your hotspots, I'd recommend looking into this https://www.amazon.com/GL-iNET-GL-MT300N-V2-Repeater-300Mbps-Performance/dp/B073TSK26W/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3NWK2L0VT6ZV9&keywords=mango+vpn&qid=1641745970&sprefix=mango+vpn%2Caps%2C81&sr=8-1 Your issue "should" also disappear when we shift to light hotspots so take that into consideration for what you want to do moving forward. P.S - There is not an official release date yet for light hotspots, the best bet is it'll be #soon (edited)
How does light hotspots change the impact of this HIP?
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donp
How does light hotspots change the impact of this HIP?
Most issues with beacons boils down to networking. Specifically the IP address of the hotspot. With light hotspots there's no need for inbound requests to hotspots (requiring an IP address) just outbound connections which are a lot less stringent
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Are you saying that everyone goes back to beaconing the same amount no matter if you share an IP or not?
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beemjack577
need to make a hip about what can be tested/activated without a vote!!!! (edited)
Testing is something that seems to be largely absent in this project. It's mostly been "seems like it should work. Let's deploy and see what happens" (edited)
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Anthonyra
Most issues with beacons boils down to networking. Specifically the IP address of the hotspot. With light hotspots there's no need for inbound requests to hotspots (requiring an IP address) just outbound connections which are a lot less stringent
Do we know if that’s how it will really work long term ?
08:40
There is what’s proposed and what actually happens when these systems go live and need to “optimize”
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Plutus
Testing is something that seems to be largely absent in this project. It's mostly been "seems like it should work. Let's deploy and see what happens" (edited)
you're saying simulations are different than real life testing? Nonsense! 😉 This network is one big experiment though (edited)
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Plutus
Testing is something that seems to be largely absent in this project. It's mostly been "seems like it should work. Let's deploy and see what happens" (edited)
It's simple math. The impact it has on our particular hotspots is not really important part, so testing in the field doesn't do much anyway. Hey HIP is not the final code. Code is written, tested, then deployed. Something as simple as this can be tested just by doing the math, so the testing is more about integration with the other systems then it is about what you are going to make or not make in rewards. (edited)
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how is the calculator working, how many days of beacons are included?
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Sloth
you're saying simulations are different than real life testing? Nonsense! 😉 This network is one big experiment though (edited)
Right... and the fact that we've lab tested for 1.5 hours is all that's really needed!
😆 2
vinod 1
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seems like the last few weeks have had significant issues with stability, and that would give really skewed numbers to "analyze"
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When it comes to a decentralized network, that have >450k nodes... anything can happen. Especially when you have routers, nodes, ETLs, and exchanges. The best analogy is, Helium is trying to fix a car while it's going 70mph down the freeway.
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So make a hip to stop Onbording at 1 million hotspots🤣
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kmerrell42
It's simple math. The impact it has on our particular hotspots is not really important part, so testing in the field doesn't do much anyway. Hey HIP is not the final code. Code is written, tested, then deployed. Something as simple as this can be tested just by doing the math, so the testing is more about integration with the other systems then it is about what you are going to make or not make in rewards. (edited)
Are you serious? You're talking about half a dozen major manufacturers, with umpteen different version of their hardware and several different release levels. It's impossible to "lab simulate" all those permutations in a couple of hours. That's the math!
drakeno 1
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El Huron
So make a hip to stop Onbording at 1 million hotspots🤣
They should have done that at 300k.
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More hotspots= less rewards.....less rewards =less peoples involved in project its simple (edited)
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El Huron
More hotspots= less rewards.....less rewards =less peoples involved in project its simple (edited)
And there's that math, too!
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Plutus
Are you serious? You're talking about half a dozen major manufacturers, with umpteen different version of their hardware and several different release levels. It's impossible to "lab simulate" all those permutations in a couple of hours. That's the math!
Unit tests. Not lab simulations. It's simple math to determine what it will do based on an individual's hotspots statistics. This is not about working on an individual manufacturer's hardware. Read the HIP. It is a very very very simple formula. I'm pretty confident that basic math will work within their algorithm. That being said, it should be and likely will be unit tested to ensure that. This isn't magic. This is software.
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kmerrell42
Unit tests. Not lab simulations. It's simple math to determine what it will do based on an individual's hotspots statistics. This is not about working on an individual manufacturer's hardware. Read the HIP. It is a very very very simple formula. I'm pretty confident that basic math will work within their algorithm. That being said, it should be and likely will be unit tested to ensure that. This isn't magic. This is software.
Just like the PoCv11 math that is putting so much load on the validators that the network has been pretty unstable for some time(and still has issues)? It's not that simple. (edited)
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@Plutus tnx bro
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El Huron
More hotspots= less rewards.....less rewards =less peoples involved in project its simple (edited)
Less people equals more rewards per person. Balance. (edited)
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kmerrell42
Unit tests. Not lab simulations. It's simple math to determine what it will do based on an individual's hotspots statistics. This is not about working on an individual manufacturer's hardware. Read the HIP. It is a very very very simple formula. I'm pretty confident that basic math will work within their algorithm. That being said, it should be and likely will be unit tested to ensure that. This isn't magic. This is software.
The issue with which I have issue is that these releases have, almost without exception, caused all sorts of "unforseen" (cause we didn't test) problems with the hotspots, that often result in earning going to zero for a day or so, until another "fix" is released for the fix.
drakeno 1
💯 1
08:47
lamo
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Can someone explain the voting system?
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Plutus
The issue with which I have issue is that these releases have, almost without exception, caused all sorts of "unforseen" (cause we didn't test) problems with the hotspots, that often result in earning going to zero for a day or so, until another "fix" is released for the fix.
That is valid, I just don't think it has any bearing over this particular proposal.
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FezzFest
Can someone explain the voting system?
More HNT in the wallet = more voting power
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FezzFest
Can someone explain the voting system?
beemjack577 01/09/2022 8:48 AM
the whales control the vote basically
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How is it democratic if someone with 10K HNT can simply buy the vote?
08:48
At least in normal politics they try to keep it below the radar
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FezzFest
How is it democratic if someone with 10K HNT can simply buy the vote?
You should adjust your democratic expectations in this project a bit. Although money votes in most democratic processes as well 😅 (edited)
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Next time just implement your hip its no use to put on vot and "someone" jumps whit 10k
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Make a HIP to change the voting process
passed 1
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Sloth
Make a HIP to change the voting process
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 01/09/2022 8:53 AM
#hip-41-governance-by-token-lock-v2
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Except that'll never work since the whales control the vote on that HIP as well
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FezzFest
Except that'll never work since the whales control the vote on that HIP as well
lol
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Is the witness_limit_cap a daily limit?
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pidgey
Is the witness_limit_cap a daily limit?
Yes
👍 1
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Hmm crap
09:07
I fucked up my vote
09:07
Apparently there's a difference between burning HNT and transferring HNT
09:07
Oh well
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Is there a process/code that ensures all hotspots beacon the same amount of times daily yet? Otherwise still against this HIP.
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davidzc "the Gentleman" 01/09/2022 9:09 AM
question, will we still get challenges from relayed miners ? because if we do we can't build witness list
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Carl-bot BOT 01/09/2022 9:09 AM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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I still don't see now this is beneficial to the network, if not somewhat detrimental
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Ih8mypp
I'm trying to work out how to login there without a Google account, without any success
You need a gmail.com account to use
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+120.83 dBm 01/09/2022 9:18 AM
Democracy is the original 51% attack.
09:20
I've seen a guy in #poc-discussion lately arguing that any witness more than 10km distant should be invalid, because setups that can reach that far aren't fair for those who don't have access to these locations. I figure it's only a matter of time before it gets written up into a HIP and approved. (edited)
😂 1
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Wow
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Yeah bro that is BS
09:23
I didnt put my antenna on a big ass pole to only have witnesses at 10k
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09:23
10km
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JoeCrypto
Click to see attachment 🖼️
is that the RAK antenna?
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FezzFest
Can someone explain the voting system?
Its basically a voting implementation
09:31
This ain't good.. wow..
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No that's not a rak antenna
09:34
And why would you want a 120 degree panel antenna?
09:35
Instead on an omni directional...
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If you're on a mountain with the city in the valley below, you don't want 360° coverage (edited)
09:36
Can't beam LoRa packets through the mountain anyways
09:37
And using a sector antenna usually provides more gain than an omni (edited)
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+120.83 dBm 01/09/2022 9:45 AM
Or if you're on the side of a building and can't get on the roof, where the building blocks anything behind.
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FezzFest
If you're on a mountain with the city in the valley below, you don't want 360° coverage (edited)
Yeah that would be ideal
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RoryGeer
Instead on an omni directional...
Did you see the video? Why would I waste my transmit power sending a signal into a metal building? I can only transmit in a single direction from this building. There is no 360 degree view from the top of the building.
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I didnt see your video
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RoryGeer
I didnt see your video
https://imgur.com/a/Mq0n7CP (edited)
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Gotcha... yeah there is alotta metal.. curious to as what kinda earnings you will get..
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TLDR, are we For Beacon/Witness Ratio or Against Beacon/Witness Ratio?
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I dont support it.
09:55
But maybe better for the networks long run
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Thrawn
TLDR, are we For Beacon/Witness Ratio or Against Beacon/Witness Ratio?
I dont support it. but they need to stop relayed hotspots from being challengers. I have had a few fake hotspots from China be a challenger to my beacons so i get zero witnesses.
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09:56
the problem is getting worse.. not better
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+120.83 dBm 01/09/2022 9:56 AM
Light hotspots need to come first.
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SaintOlav
I dont support it. but they need to stop relayed hotspots from being challengers. I have had a few fake hotspots from China be a challenger to my beacons so i get zero witnesses.
I’ve had that happen. I’ve had challengers from the other side of the continent.
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Thrawn
I’ve had that happen. I’ve had challengers from the other side of the continent.
challengers will be all over the world.. but they should be functioning properly.
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I realy have to say this guy with this hip42 should worry about other thinhs
09:57
Completely bs
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GlobalShock 01/09/2022 9:57 AM
Its very bad, i don't support it. this will affect the network badly.
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+120.83 dBm 01/09/2022 9:58 AM
I really doubt it will do much in the way of achieving its stated goal.
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Voted against. 🤘
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same
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Let's see how many beacons per day one of my HS has sent recently. In the past 14 days it looks like 2,1,2,2,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,2,0.
10:02
It's not relayed.
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So you guys are all in favor of me putting low cost receivers all over my city and feeding them all to one miner?
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gradoj
So you guys are all in favor of me putting low cost receivers all over my city and feeding them all to one miner?
Haha, I feel like most people don’t even know about this. This is why I’m voting for 42.
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gradoj
So you guys are all in favor of me putting low cost receivers all over my city and feeding them all to one miner?
Would those receivers provide service to Helium end-user devices? (edited)
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+120.83 dBm
Would those receivers provide service to Helium end-user devices? (edited)
Mostly receiving
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I don't know how these devices work. Is receiving enough to be providing service?
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I only have 6, soon to be 7 installs. All in underserved areas and 30ft - 55ft high. From what I understood reading hip 42. My earnings are reduced to help those with less optimal installations. Is that right or am I totally off base?
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+120.83 dBm
I don't know how these devices work. Is receiving enough to be providing service?
Not full service. Downlinks required for joining and a few other things
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Thrawn
I only have 6, soon to be 7 installs. All in underserved areas and 30ft - 55ft high. From what I understood reading hip 42. My earnings are reduced to help those with less optimal installations. Is that right or am I totally off base?
This will change the definition of optimal installation to be more in line with what the network actually needs. There’s no reason to think that the setup you’re describing would be inherently adversely affected. (edited)
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gradoj
So you guys are all in favor of me putting low cost receivers all over my city and feeding them all to one miner?
I'm not too concerned about people doing this. To me it sounds like just as much work (more really) as installing full miners in all of those locations.
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Okay what if rawrmaan takes his 5000 hotspot fleet (I made that up) and shared all witnesses across all miners in a city. You okay with that too?
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gradoj
Okay what if rawrmaan takes his 5000 hotspot fleet (I made that up) and shared all witnesses across all miners in a city. You okay with that too?
Probably his in that range Every day u find out most of People behind videos are with they fingers deep inside
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gradoj
Okay what if rawrmaan takes his 5000 hotspot fleet (I made that up) and shared all witnesses across all miners in a city. You okay with that too?
Can I come?
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Well it is totally possible right now
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Ha, I wish we had 5k hotspots! Much less, and spread out all over the country. But yea, there are already some people exploiting this witness forwarding thing to get insane earnings on individual hotspots without benefitting the network. I think that’s what this HIP is about.
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This HIP will Help and not Much There are hospots that they becon every 2-3 days And sometimes chalanger relayed Means he will be in "bad days all day's"
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This HIP depends on beaconing working as intended, at its intended frequency, and that isn't happening now.
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+120.83 dBm
This HIP depends on beaconing working as intended, at its intended frequency, and that isn't happening now.
Yea, ultimately this will screw over a lot of people randomly until light hotspots. This isn’t a final vote tho
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I'm not even sure if light hotspots will fix it.
10:18
Sure, you can require all validators to forward the port, but my port is forwarded and beaconing ain't happening like it should.
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Well there won’t be a p2p component anymore, so yes it should entirely fix it. Port forwarding doesn’t solve everything
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+120.83 dBm
I'm not even sure if light hotspots will fix it.
light hotspots will no longer require port forwarding. All hotspots will just ask validators if they should beacon. It will be much better
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Time to bribe some validators.
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Radrob
light hotspots will no longer require port forwarding. All hotspots will just ask validators if they should beacon. It will be much better
I hope we get to find out soon.
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Radrob
light hotspots will no longer require port forwarding. All hotspots will just ask validators if they should beacon. It will be much better
How come ? If some of them fails transmitting or Reciving the recipe 🤔 Bad day's every day
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buzzetouch
How come ? If some of them fails transmitting or Reciving the recipe 🤔 Bad day's every day
They shouldn’t fail unless their internet connection is down. gRPC will be infinitely more reliable than the current p2p network
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This HIP benefits window sill participants, formally knows as casuals right?
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In this case some penalties for validators to be put in place
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anyra
This HIP benefits window sill participants, formally knows as casuals right?
Not necessarily. It also doesn’t necessarily hurt them.
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+120.83 dBm
Let's see how many beacons per day one of my HS has sent recently. In the past 14 days it looks like 2,1,2,2,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,2,0.
Here's another one of mine: 0,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,1,2,0,0,0. Again not relayed, connected using ethernet, nothing wrong with the internet service.
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rawrmaan
Not necessarily. It also doesn’t necessarily hurt them.
But it will hurt higher earners right?
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+120.83 dBm
Here's another one of mine: 0,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,1,2,0,0,0. Again not relayed, connected using ethernet, nothing wrong with the internet service.
That’s because the entire p2p model is flawed. Individuals can’t do anything to make their own setups not fail like this. Light hotspots fix this
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anyra
But it will hurt higher earners right?
Only the most extreme end of top earners
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I sent a becon few hours ago Come back with 0 witnesses And the challenger is not relayed My port 44158 open In this case 'bad day's every day"
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rawrmaan
Only the most extreme end of top earners
But they are the once who influence the votes the most🧐 (edited)
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anyra
But they are the once who influence the votes the most🧐 (edited)
Nah, the ones who influence votes the most are seed investors and people who were top earners 2 years ago. The parameters for earning looked completely different back then
10:30
Current top earners will never earn enough to sway votes in a big way
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rawrmaan
That’s because the entire p2p model is flawed. Individuals can’t do anything to make their own setups not fail like this. Light hotspots fix this
If p2p is broke with 450k HS, won't it still be broke with 3k validators? Or is it only broke because of scale?
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+120.83 dBm
If p2p is broke with 450k HS, won't it still be broke with 3k validators? Or is it only broke because of scale?
Only broke because of scale
10:33
3k is very well known/established scale for p2p networks. >100k is not and everything breaks down. There literally isn’t another p2p network this big other than Helium
10:34
Also, validators are extremely well connected with high bandwidth network connections. Hotspots are on consumer internet or 3G. Makes a world of difference
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pl
I hate this HIP. Seriously, this project is like this. Helium says "Here are the rules. Go spend money and time to deploy." Then a little while later Helium says "Just kidding - we are going to totally change the rules now" (edited)
Noel - that guy 01/09/2022 10:39 AM
that's how laws are written too. You write it and enforce it as written. Then after awhile you discover all the loopholes that people have exploited under the "letter of the law" to avoid the "spirit of the law" and correct them.
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rawrmaan
3k is very well known/established scale for p2p networks. >100k is not and everything breaks down. There literally isn’t another p2p network this big other than Helium
What concerns me is that the workload for validators increases with light hotspots and will increase with more hips like this. They already can hardly handle it. (edited)
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Sloth
What concerns me is that the workload for validators increases with light hotspots and will increase with more hips like this. They already can hardly handle it. (edited)
The increase will be “lots of easy work”, so shouldn’t cause any issues. Right now what they occasionally struggle with is “a very small amount of hard work”—AKA calculating the rewards transaction every 30 mins. The latest validator version has done a huge optimization on this and it’s barely a problem anymore
10:45
Validators are on dedicated hardware that can be scaled up at any time. Not so for hotspots
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Sloth
What concerns me is that the workload for validators increases with light hotspots and will increase with more hips like this. They already can hardly handle it. (edited)
Noel - that guy 01/09/2022 10:49 AM
There needs to be more enforcement on validators. I looked into a few and say they are only connecting a few days per month to meet their required terms and then sit dormant the remainder of the month. Some earn ridiculous HNT for minimal work and are the main reason for current network bottlenecks. Others are still identified as validators, but show as no trafficking passing in last 30 days. They need to be removed from the network and new guidelines established in order to become and remain as a validator.
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10:50
As an example, https://explorer.helium.com/validators/112k4FM8tY7ocrwQ8v8kWsjkcaVM2xAgvTF1eusnZcpgWHYhneQv 1 day of activity in the last 30 days and earned 18.099 HNT
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Noel - that guy
There needs to be more enforcement on validators. I looked into a few and say they are only connecting a few days per month to meet their required terms and then sit dormant the remainder of the month. Some earn ridiculous HNT for minimal work and are the main reason for current network bottlenecks. Others are still identified as validators, but show as no trafficking passing in last 30 days. They need to be removed from the network and new guidelines established in order to become and remain as a validator.
If validators aren’t online/doing work, they don’t join the consensus group and thus don’t earn. Not sure what you’re referring to here. I do agree that validators need more strict rules around upgrading to the latest software and I’ve voiced this in #validator-ops
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Noel - that guy
As an example, https://explorer.helium.com/validators/112k4FM8tY7ocrwQ8v8kWsjkcaVM2xAgvTF1eusnZcpgWHYhneQv 1 day of activity in the last 30 days and earned 18.099 HNT
This is totally normal. Validators don’t earn every day, but only when they’re randomly selected for the consensus group.
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rawrmaan
This is totally normal. Validators don’t earn every day, but only when they’re randomly selected for the consensus group.
Noel - that guy 01/09/2022 10:52 AM
Okay, then that makes sense with a once a month payment.
10:53
But that linked validator I provided above is still using an outdated software version
10:54
Current software version is 1.6.3 and most that I am finding are utilizing 1.5.X
10:55
I digress, wrong channel for that discussion
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Yea got a little off track here, my fault as well
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rawrmaan
Yea, ultimately this will screw over a lot of people randomly until light hotspots. This isn’t a final vote tho
This is my major concern with this HIP as designed is that it penalizes good actors for expected network behavior
10:59
Should hotspots be rewarded for simply being in a "good" location where they have the ability to hear 100's if not 1000's of other hotspots? I argue that's these areas are too redudant and shouldn't be rewarded simply for witnessing.. hence this proposal I also disagree with this sentiment - places that have great coverage provide more valuable per-hotspot coverage than others and (I feel) should be rewarded as such. Scaling already takes care of the redundancy point (or should) (edited)
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joecoin
This is my major concern with this HIP as designed is that it penalizes good actors for expected network behavior
Well it redefined expected network behavior. Really, you’re only partially useful as a hotspot if you can witness a ton of others. You’re most useful if you can provide downlinks too. (edited)
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rawrmaan
Well it redefined expected network behavior. Really, you’re only partially useful as a hotspot if you can witness a ton of others. You’re most useful if you can provide downlinks too. (edited)
Yes, but providing a large coverage area for uplink is still more useful than not doing so (presuming you're also providing uplink as much as you can)
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One potential issue I see with this HIP has to do with the impact of noise floor on a beaconers performance. If the potential witnesses have a higher noise floor than the beaconer, you can expect them to witness the beaconer’s signal less often than the other way around. If everyone’s noise floor was exactly the same, there’s no problem, but in practice this is influenced by many things out of our control.
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joecoin
Yes, but providing a large coverage area for uplink is still more useful than not doing so (presuming you're also providing uplink as much as you can)
But it’s not so useful that you should be disproportionately rewarded for it. Rewards are better spent incentivizing less dense areas
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rawrmaan
But it’s not so useful that you should be disproportionately rewarded for it. Rewards are better spent incentivizing less dense areas
But they still are via reward scaling - this doesn't address incentivizing less dense areas... It just hurts the highest performing / best placed hotspots in those less dense areas as well (edited)
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joecoin
But they still are via reward scaling - this doesn't address incentivizing less dense areas... It just hurts the highest performing / best placed hotspots in those less dense areas as well (edited)
Less dense areas shouldn’t be penalized at all here, since this only takes effect if you’re maxing out your witnesses. By definition you’d be in a somewhat dense area at that point
11:05
I can see your point too tho. The problem is that if you allow no cap like it is right now, you get witness forwarding exploiters earning more than 10x of legit hotspots providing that coverage. This HIP fixes that
11:06
We definitely need an audio discussion/Q&A on this. @Anthonyra would you be up for that today or tomorrow? I can host for an hour or so.
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rawrmaan
Less dense areas shouldn’t be penalized at all here, since this only takes effect if you’re maxing out your witnesses. By definition you’d be in a somewhat dense area at that point
Only 18? 🤔 right? I mean... 18 ain't that much (edited)
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rawrmaan
I can see your point too tho. The problem is that if you allow no cap like it is right now, you get witness forwarding exploiters earning more than 10x of legit hotspots providing that coverage. This HIP fixes that
I have no idea what this means but I'd be interested to learn more to see if there's some other solution
11:07
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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joecoin
Only 18? 🤔 right? I mean... 18 ain't that much (edited)
18 every time yea. It’s a lot IMO. Nothing for the city but if you’ve got 18 witnesses, you’re building within well covered area, not at the edge of new coverage
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rawrmaan
We definitely need an audio discussion/Q&A on this. @Anthonyra would you be up for that today or tomorrow? I can host for an hour or so.
But I invested a lot on a very good location and have a rental contract signed for 3 years, so now my rewards wil drop a lot besides the normal drop rate ...
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Petzl
But I invested a lot on a very good location and have a rental contract signed for 3 years, so now my rewards wil drop a lot besides the normal drop rate ...
That’s how Helium goes. New exploits are found and the rules change based on necessity. The rules have changed many times in the past 2 years. If you’ve got an honest location trying to provide as much unique coverage as possible, you’ll do just fine.
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I’ve just voted on this HIP, fingers crossed this can be implemented
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rawrmaan
We definitely need an audio discussion/Q&A on this. @Anthonyra would you be up for that today or tomorrow? I can host for an hour or so.
I'd love to do in person discussion on this, today/tonight wouldn't work the best for me do to previous obligations but my schedule tomorrow is wide open. What time would work best for you?
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Anthonyra
I'd love to do in person discussion on this, today/tonight wouldn't work the best for me do to previous obligations but my schedule tomorrow is wide open. What time would work best for you?
Trying to think of when most people could listen in. How about 8P ET/5P PT?
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rawrmaan
Trying to think of when most people could listen in. How about 8P ET/5P PT?
Sure that works for me, 8pm ET tomorrow (1/10)?
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Petzl
But I invested a lot on a very good location and have a rental contract signed for 3 years, so now my rewards wil drop a lot besides the normal drop rate ...
If that location is good, and you ensure your setup is beaconing and witnessing you shouldn't see issues. I'd love to see this hotspot of yours that you're concerned with. Is it limited when entered into the calculator?
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Have the core devs provided input? This seems computational complex in the current form. Validators are already struggling with hip 15/17 and pocv11
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One thing I’d love to hear from you @Anthonyra is if you’re up to actually implement this? Happy to advise. Would be great to get code going with this if there’s enough interest in the community to implement.
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I worry about validator load
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Anthonyra
Sure that works for me, 8pm ET tomorrow (1/10)?
Sounds good. We can record it and I can release it as a podcast episode for wider reach
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PaulM
Have the core devs provided input? This seems computational complex in the current form. Validators are already struggling with hip 15/17 and pocv11
I think it could be fine. But we’d need to add more data to the ledger to track this rather than doing manual lookbacks.
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I see there’s a LOT of confusion around why this exists and the mechanisms surrounding it
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Okay, yeah the look back was my concern
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hashc0de
One thing I’d love to hear from you @Anthonyra is if you’re up to actually implement this? Happy to advise. Would be great to get code going with this if there’s enough interest in the community to implement.
Yes, one of the main reasons I wanted this temperature check. If the community is for this, I'll happily work on the code. @PaulM validator load is of concern and will be part a significant driving factor in the way it's implemented. A simple counter like you've mentioned earlier could be used.
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Anthonyra
If that location is good, and you ensure your setup is beaconing and witnessing you shouldn't see issues. I'd love to see this hotspot of yours that you're concerned with. Is it limited when entered into the calculator?
No idea , didn't find the calculation , I have like 1300 beacons in 7 days
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@Anthonyra can you please guide us to how to calculate if the limit is problem for us ?
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Petzl
No idea , didn't find the calculation , I have like 1300 beacons in 7 days
What's the public address of the hotspot?
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Anthonyra
What's the public address of the hotspot?
I rather keep that private ...
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Petzl
I rather keep that private ...
Tools are provided in that case, and that's the best I can do to help
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And an ETL Login is any gmail.com email address or googlemail.com (edited)
waveform pinned a message to this channel. 01/09/2022 11:34 AM
waveform pinned a message to this channel. 01/09/2022 11:37 AM
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@Anthonyra do you have a version that lists the ones most affected?
11:37
this is great to have a dashboard to go with it, though. thanks for this
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Anthonyra
Tools are provided in that case, and that's the best I can do to help
Why we need this hip ? I dont get it and this votes are everything but not fair (edited)
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Anthonyra
Tools are provided in that case, and that's the best I can do to help
tool doesn't work with public IP or hotspot name
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hashc0de
@Anthonyra do you have a version that lists the ones most affected?
When I was building out this HIP there was one, but now it times out the DeWi server the sql queue that is... Edit: I maybe able to do a top 1000? but the list is pretty long since there's a great deal of hotspots that currently never beacon (edited)
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Bulshitofl
tool doesn't work with public IP or hotspot name
Name needs to be in the 'name-name-name` format... I also prefer the public address myself but people wanted a way to search via their hotspots name
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tried both neither worked just got the "no results" splash
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This is the next biggest unnecessary hip directly after the redemption i swear to god, if helium fail than thats a reason , with hips like this, so now the big wallets vote for it and its done , doesn’t matter if more votes are against, if there is more hnt for it , make a hip better to make a fair vote where the votes get counted not the amount of hnt in the wallet
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I read the HIP and I voted against it. I think it does not address any of the gaming problems or any of the POC problems. I think it is a waste of resources which could be spent on better things.
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mineHNT
This is the next biggest unnecessary hip directly after the redemption i swear to god, if helium fail than thats a reason , with hips like this, so now the big wallets vote for it and its done , doesn’t matter if more votes are against, if there is more hnt for it , make a hip better to make a fair vote where the votes get counted not the amount of hnt in the wallet
#hip-41-governance-by-token-lock-v2 attempts to address this
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rawrmaan
#hip-41-governance-by-token-lock-v2 attempts to address this
I agree that his post mostly belongs there but I get his frustration 🙂
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Bulshitofl
I read the HIP and I voted against it. I think it does not address any of the gaming problems or any of the POC problems. I think it is a waste of resources which could be spent on better things.
I lost it but there was a link to a hotspot earning 20 HNT per day exploiting witness forwarding, which this would solve. If anyone has it please post (edited)
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Anthonyra
Name needs to be in the 'name-name-name` format... I also prefer the public address myself but people wanted a way to search via their hotspots name
I get only a red x where can i put my name in?
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rawrmaan
#hip-41-governance-by-token-lock-v2 attempts to address this
Yeah ok but i have the voice to vote for or against and im in here to say why i am against it. I have hotspots in good locations and of course im witnessing a lot and my rewards should now be increased because of that ?
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Bulshitofl
tried both neither worked just got the "no results" splash
I've heard that the calculator has been under a lot of load and could be the cause of those results... sorry DeWi
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rawrmaan
I lost it but there was a link to a hotspot earning 20 HNT per day exploiting witness forwarding, which this would solve. If anyone has it please post (edited)
I apriciate the concern about this kind of gaming. But I think that this HIP is not an apropriate answer to it. If wittnes forwarding is indeed happening than this should be addressed on the IP level not limiting POC activity in general.
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rawrmaan
I lost it but there was a link to a hotspot earning 20 HNT per day exploiting witness forwarding, which this would solve. If anyone has it please post (edited)
You're probably thinking Clever Smoke Raven, which was doing witness forwarding but exploiting via a means that was later "patched" however they wouldn't have been able to get 20 HNT if this was in place during that exploit
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Anthonyra
You're probably thinking Clever Smoke Raven, which was doing witness forwarding but exploiting via a means that was later "patched" however they wouldn't have been able to get 20 HNT if this was in place during that exploit
Interesting, didn't realize that was patched. What was the patch?
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rawrmaan
Interesting, didn't realize that was patched. What was the patch?
Good question... there's some conspiracy theories. But it wasn't a publicly announced/voiced patch. It appeared however to lean heavily on a Man In The Middle type of witness forwarding compared to signal repeaters (edited)
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How do we vote?
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@Anthonyra i hope that you realize that this hip will let some legit HS get even less rewards, if that happens ill come back to thank you for that that you screwed down the rewards
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Max - Just Max 01/09/2022 12:07 PM
Are we sure this is the best time to be implementing something like this with so many peer book issues?
12:08
Think this really needs to wait for light hotspots to be effective with less collateral damage
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Only look AT implementation once the network is stable. It’s too unpredictable right now.
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@Anthonyra - What about differentiating not beaconing vs. not providing 2-way comms? Essentially, do we know what % of hotspots with zero beacons are still providing 2-way comms, just not doing so for PoC?
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Max - Just Max
Are we sure this is the best time to be implementing something like this with so many peer book issues?
This is a temperature check vote which will determine if my time will be spent in the near future to provide an improvement to the Helium network... (edited)
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joecoin
@Anthonyra - What about differentiating not beaconing vs. not providing 2-way comms? Essentially, do we know what % of hotspots with zero beacons are still providing 2-way comms, just not doing so for PoC?
PoC is the way the network is informed it has the ability to provide such coverage..
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Anthonyra
PoC is the way the network is informed it has the ability to provide such coverage..
So I think you're saying the answer is "no" 🤔 just wanted to confirm because that'd stink if PoC issues cause rewards not to go to hotspots that are providing 2-way comms to devices
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joecoin
So I think you're saying the answer is "no" 🤔 just wanted to confirm because that'd stink if PoC issues cause rewards not to go to hotspots that are providing 2-way comms to devices
Just to clarify, Proof of Coverage is the proxy that is used to determine if a hotspot is able to provide the coverage needed for the network. So the beacons prove ability to downlink and witnesses prove ability to uplink
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Anthonyra
Just to clarify, Proof of Coverage is the proxy that is used to determine if a hotspot is able to provide the coverage needed for the network. So the beacons prove ability to downlink and witnesses prove ability to uplink
Understood, I think my question was more surrounding any trustless verification of other communications (didn't seem possible but wanted to ask) (edited)
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Anthonyra
This is a temperature check vote which will determine if my time will be spent in the near future to provide an improvement to the Helium network... (edited)
Max - Just Max 01/09/2022 12:27 PM
Got it. Yea I’m all for the spirit of the HIP
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waveform
And an ETL Login is any gmail.com email address or googlemail.com (edited)
FrozenCalypse 01/09/2022 12:33 PM
It's still restricted even though with a Gmail address
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davidzc "the Gentleman" 01/09/2022 12:33 PM
@Anthonyra positive on this HIP, i think this is a good improvement. This will be for the benefit of the network. maybe we can up the send beacons per day to 8 ;-).. like if you have a 200m high spot in the center of London i think you could benefit from that. one note i have, cut out the relayed miners from sending beacons. but thanks for the time and effort you put into this HIP to make the network better !
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FrozenCalypse
It's still restricted even though with a Gmail address
has to be a gmail.com address. Not one hosted for mail by gsuite
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FrozenCalypse 01/09/2022 12:38 PM
Worked. Had a googlemail.com address
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davidzc "the Gentleman"
@Anthonyra positive on this HIP, i think this is a good improvement. This will be for the benefit of the network. maybe we can up the send beacons per day to 8 ;-).. like if you have a 200m high spot in the center of London i think you could benefit from that. one note i have, cut out the relayed miners from sending beacons. but thanks for the time and effort you put into this HIP to make the network better !
The down and dirty ratio as it sits today is actually a 1:8 based on valid witnesses per beacon. But it's over the course of 5 days. If that makes sense? Being the author makes it difficult to EILI5 ... but I would agree current network issues don't assist in this proposal but there is a compensation factor to help limit it's affect while the fixes are being made for those issues in particular
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Anthonyra
Good question... there's some conspiracy theories. But it wasn't a publicly announced/voiced patch. It appeared however to lean heavily on a Man In The Middle type of witness forwarding compared to signal repeaters (edited)
This worries me a bit, so they can already silently stop hotspots all along? His hotspots are still online. Yet they never send out a beacon or witness anything... something very similar happening with #diy-packet-forwarder people right now. (edited)
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Sloth
This worries me a bit, so they can already silently stop hotspots all along? His hotspots are still online. Yet they never send out a beacon or witness anything... something very similar happening with #diy-packet-forwarder people right now. (edited)
They never had listen addresses to begin with for what it's worth in regards to the Clever Smoke Raven hotspots
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Anthonyra
The down and dirty ratio as it sits today is actually a 1:8 based on valid witnesses per beacon. But it's over the course of 5 days. If that makes sense? Being the author makes it difficult to EILI5 ... but I would agree current network issues don't assist in this proposal but there is a compensation factor to help limit it's affect while the fixes are being made for those issues in particular
davidzc "the Gentleman" 01/09/2022 12:49 PM
one dirty question. just playing devil's advocate as they say here. so how long would those witnesses be valid? I hope the calculation would be done per day minus 5 day's from that day and every day.
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Just to understand correctly - if my hotspots witnesses a thousand beacons, and my 6 daily beacons have 18 witnesses - will anything changes for me in terms of rewards?? (edited)
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davidzc "the Gentleman"
one dirty question. just playing devil's advocate as they say here. so how long would those witnesses be valid? I hope the calculation would be done per day minus 5 day's from that day and every day.
The daily limit would be based on a rolling 5 day window up to that point
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Technoking
Just to understand correctly - if my hotspots witnesses a thousand beacons, and my 6 daily beacons have 18 witnesses - will anything changes for me in terms of rewards?? (edited)
There is a hard cap based on those limitations, with 6 and 18 it's 1296 witnesses per day. The best performing hotspots right now don't witness that much aside from when the Clever Smoke Raven was exploiting a man in the middle witness replay
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Anthonyra
There is a hard cap based on those limitations, with 6 and 18 it's 1296 witnesses per day. The best performing hotspots right now don't witness that much aside from when the Clever Smoke Raven was exploiting a man in the middle witness replay
davidzc "the Gentleman" 01/09/2022 12:56 PM
or the ones that alter the mainbord so no beacons are being send
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Anthonyra
The daily limit would be based on a rolling 5 day window up to that point
Oh this seems better... Would that potentially cause a slower return to profits for devices that experience outages? 🤔 Could it negatively impact owners of devices from particular manufacturers I guess is part of my question, with the recent rak issues (edited)
12:57
(better than when I didn't know it was 5 day average 😂 all in all I support this, I just want to try to poke holes in it)
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davidzc "the Gentleman" 01/09/2022 12:57 PM
but my main concern is the beacon send with 0 witnesses. because the challenger cant be reached
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davidzc "the Gentleman"
but my main concern is the beacon send with 0 witnesses. because the challenger cant be reached
I completely understand, before this is just implemented, mind you I haven't written any code yet. There will be another data dive to ensure the compensation factor is set to ensure less "growing" pains into the new limitations. This is a temperature check to see if my time coding would warranted or not (edited)
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Anthonyra
I completely understand, before this is just implemented, mind you I haven't written any code yet. There will be another data dive to ensure the compensation factor is set to ensure less "growing" pains into the new limitations. This is a temperature check to see if my time coding would warranted or not (edited)
davidzc "the Gentleman" 01/09/2022 1:00 PM
so implemented by? tomorrow ? 😆
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davidzc "the Gentleman"
so implemented by? tomorrow ? 😆
It'll take a little bit to be implemented... since Helium core devs will only be providing support. It's not going to happen tomorrow. It might even land after light hotspots since it's an improvement not a critical fix
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Will us miners in small towns be badly affected by this? Most of us only get about 5 witnesses on a beacon as there are only 10 miners.
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I'm a little confused on the formula. Let's say a miner has a witness list of 1. It only gets witnessed by the same miner Everytime. What would it's max daily limit be?
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Carl-bot BOT 01/09/2022 1:03 PM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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Anthonyra
There is a hard cap based on those limitations, with 6 and 18 it's 1296 witnesses per day. The best performing hotspots right now don't witness that much aside from when the Clever Smoke Raven was exploiting a man in the middle witness replay
That is not true. lots of mountainside / tower / high-rise type locations consistently get over 1296 witness receipts over a 5 day period. And if you are on a university campus or other place that has a single IP shared by many, then no matter what you are about to get crushed since you aren't beaconing very often because of the change previously made to limit the number of beacons per IP. (edited)
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pl
That is not true. lots of mountainside / tower / high-rise type locations consistently get over 1296 witness receipts over a 5 day period. And if you are on a university campus or other place that has a single IP shared by many, then no matter what you are about to get crushed since you aren't beaconing very often because of the change previously made to limit the number of beacons per IP. (edited)
Not witnesses daily... I've done the data analyses
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davidzc "the Gentleman" 01/09/2022 1:04 PM
ohhh. wil you take into consideration the tx power and the average witnesses per beacon send per region ?
13:07
915 27db average is let's say 9.05 per beacon send. 868 14db average is 8.05 per beacon send. etc.. so no region would suffer because of geographical location ?
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:07 PM
Yo this HIP is Hot TRASH lol
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Yo this HIP is Hot TRASH lol
Please vote no 🙂
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Anthonyra
Please vote no 🙂
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:07 PM
On it!
🍻 3
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Yo this HIP is Hot TRASH lol
davidzc "the Gentleman" 01/09/2022 1:07 PM
your in a car on a mountain.. who cares
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davidzc "the Gentleman"
your in a car on a mountain.. who cares
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:08 PM
Don’t limit my beacons cause u jelly lol
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Don’t limit my beacons cause u jelly lol
*witnesses
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:08 PM
Like wtf how’s tht fair to ppl tht work hard to get better than average
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Don’t limit my beacons cause u jelly lol
davidzc "the Gentleman" 01/09/2022 1:08 PM
why you have our dutch logo as profile picture? 😉
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davidzc "the Gentleman"
why you have our dutch logo as profile picture? 😉
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:09 PM
Lol it’s not ur logo
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Don’t limit my beacons cause u jelly lol
davidzc "the Gentleman" 01/09/2022 1:09 PM
get a bigger antenna
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davidzc "the Gentleman"
get a bigger antenna
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:09 PM
Mines 65 inches
13:09
Big enough
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Lol it’s not ur logo
davidzc "the Gentleman" 01/09/2022 1:09 PM
hahaha
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Just make sure you beacon and all is good
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:11 PM
I do sometimes lol
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Mines 65 inches
davidzc "the Gentleman" 01/09/2022 1:11 PM
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:11 PM
Like atm I am 200+ witnesses
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davidzc "the Gentleman" 01/09/2022 1:11 PM
i know some at 500 witnesses with a 5dbi in the Netherlands
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:12 PM
But sometimes I go weeks with sending maybe only 1-3 beacons a week
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Like atm I am 200+ witnesses
The #1 hotspot with witnesses per day max out at 536 for those who are curious. Which is less then the witness limit cap.. (edited)
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:13 PM
Okay I don’t get how this helps it’s just gonna cut the legs off all the offgrids
13:14
Like srsly why u gotta do this lol
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davidzc "the Gentleman" 01/09/2022 1:14 PM
how would this impact the "farms" ?
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The hotspot that get the most witnesses per day won't be clipped so not sure how your's will unless you don't beacon
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:14 PM
Idk I doubt it would help more than it’s gonna hurt a big community
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Anthonyra
The hotspot that get the most witnesses per day won't be clipped so not sure how your's will unless you don't beacon
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:15 PM
Using mobile cell so idk sometimes I don’t beacon atm I am but it goes away idk why just the way it is
13:15
Seems like a network issue
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Using mobile cell so idk sometimes I don’t beacon atm I am but it goes away idk why just the way it is
davidzc "the Gentleman" 01/09/2022 1:16 PM
grpc would fix this wouldn't it ?
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:16 PM
PLEASE JUST STOP WITH THIS HIP LOL it ain’t gonna pass
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davidzc "the Gentleman"
grpc would fix this wouldn't it ?
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:17 PM
What is that ?
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I vote no
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:17 PM
Honestly thou this is a bad idea
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I have absolute top setup so I am disadvantaged I think
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FrozenCalypse 01/09/2022 1:18 PM
As a side note, even top setups are not impacted really
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I voted yes.
13:19
can i get the role now, thx
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FrozenCalypse 01/09/2022 1:19 PM
Always emulate & read thoroughly before voting
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anyra
I voted yes.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:19 PM
Lol why
13:20
Don’t do tht
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It's a 50/50. I don't care
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Anthonyra
The hotspot that get the most witnesses per day won't be clipped so not sure how your's will unless you don't beacon
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:21 PM
Why do we even need this HIP I wanna hear your perspective do u have any miners that are sub 10k ?
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Why do we even need this HIP I wanna hear your perspective do u have any miners that are sub 10k ?
davidzc "the Gentleman" 01/09/2022 1:21 PM
no just validators 😉
13:21
@Anthonyra is lambo
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:21 PM
Like it’s gonna hurt the people that put the most into this network the most how is that smart one bit?
👍 2
13:22
Without offgrids you would just have saturated city’s
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After two weeks of data analysis I built this HIP. If you have data proving differently please bring it too light. This HIP is written... was written to improve the network. If you think hotspots should be rewarded PoC without beaconing then please vote no on this HIP and have a great time with Helium 🙂
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Like it’s gonna hurt the people that put the most into this network the most how is that smart one bit?
davidzc "the Gentleman" 01/09/2022 1:22 PM
i don't think it will hurt "perfect" installs
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Without offgrids you would just have saturated city’s
offgrid take 🤣
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where's the link to actually vote?
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Anthonyra
After two weeks of data analysis I built this HIP. If you have data proving differently please bring it too light. This HIP is written... was written to improve the network. If you think hotspots should be rewarded PoC without beaconing then please vote no on this HIP and have a great time with Helium 🙂
Jeff Alberda 01/09/2022 1:23 PM
why would hotspots not beacon? Whats the game there?
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Like it’s gonna hurt the people that put the most into this network the most how is that smart one bit?
davidzc "the Gentleman" 01/09/2022 1:23 PM
it's like a chessgame .. just level up.. make the network better. fix the offgrid problems
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Anthonyra
After two weeks of data analysis I built this HIP. If you have data proving differently please bring it too light. This HIP is written... was written to improve the network. If you think hotspots should be rewarded PoC without beaconing then please vote no on this HIP and have a great time with Helium 🙂
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:23 PM
Yes I do think you should be rewarded for not beaconing that’s not the point lol networks got issues like they could fix what’s going on when using an ipv4 to get out of relayed
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Is it not irrelevant anyway if Light hotspots are there ?
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Yes I do think you should be rewarded for not beaconing that’s not the point lol networks got issues like they could fix what’s going on when using an ipv4 to get out of relayed
If no one beacons what will you be witnessing? Why should others beacons when your setups don't? (edited)
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Jeff Alberda
why would hotspots not beacon? Whats the game there?
davidzc "the Gentleman" 01/09/2022 1:24 PM
people use some sniffer software, or just solder on the mainbord
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I still vote no on this issue
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:24 PM
It’s not my fault I don’t beacon I do everything it’s cause the network sucks atm and packets are getting Fuked on the backend that’s why ppl aren’t beaconing
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my stance can be found in the chat history 😄
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davidzc "the Gentleman"
people use some sniffer software, or just solder on the mainbord
Jeff Alberda 01/09/2022 1:24 PM
not how, why? Why give up the reward for beaconing?
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DigitalHuevos🥚 01/09/2022 1:25 PM
Where is the link to vote?
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DigitalHuevos🥚
Where is the link to vote?
Www.heliumvote.com
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Anthonyra
If no one beacons what will you be witnessing? Why should others beacons when your setups don't? (edited)
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:25 PM
That’s not my fault like I said packets are getting destroyed on the backend when using an ipv4
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
It’s not my fault I don’t beacon I do everything it’s cause the network sucks atm and packets are getting Fuked on the backend that’s why ppl aren’t beaconing
davidzc "the Gentleman" 01/09/2022 1:25 PM
build a better network.. start an OUI, get a seed, filter out the bad and the ugly
13:26
denylists !
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davidzc "the Gentleman"
build a better network.. start an OUI, get a seed, filter out the bad and the ugly
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:27 PM
So you use ipv4 to get off relay just to have all your PoC packets destroyed the issue came up about a month or so ago and is common knowledge in the offgrid community
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This proposal seeks to regulate the number of witnesses a Hotspot is rewarded for based on the success of beacons. By tying the reward for witnesses of Hotspots to successful beacons, we incentivize healthy network coverage. Votes for this HIP are considered a temperature check. The implementation of this HIP is not guaranteed and is subject to...
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Woutch (Wouter) 01/09/2022 1:27 PM
I'm for this hip, but first fix the network. No beacons send for 7 days. Not relayed, rebooted, reloaded snapshot, reboot again. All tools say connection is ok... Challenges go out, but max 2 responses, mostly 0. Seems peerbook related...
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
So you use ipv4 to get off relay just to have all your PoC packets destroyed the issue came up about a month or so ago and is common knowledge in the offgrid community
FrozenCalypse 01/09/2022 1:27 PM
Light Hotspots fix that
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FrozenCalypse
Light Hotspots fix that
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:28 PM
We need light hotspots not this crap lol
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FrozenCalypse 01/09/2022 1:28 PM
Still, gaming is possible
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Deleted User 01/09/2022 1:28 PM
Guys whats this hip about? Where can i read up on this
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Jeff Alberda 01/09/2022 1:28 PM
click the pin
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Deleted User
Guys whats this hip about? Where can i read up on this
FrozenCalypse 01/09/2022 1:28 PM
Helium Improvement Proposals. Contribute to helium/HIP development by creating an account on GitHub.
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Does the poll actually only have 15 votes? or am I just seeing things
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:28 PM
Please vote no this is a very bad idea and u are driving away people that are more serious about this project which is what it need for success in the long term
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i am out now
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Maybe I need to build a neon sign for this, but if this does get approved the work will be done not by Helium but myself. Meaning that the core devs will not shift their attentions away from light hotspots. This could land before light hotspots and if it does there's a compensation factor built in that'll be set based on network status. It also could land after light hotspots...
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Sma
Does the poll actually only have 15 votes? or am I just seeing things
There's an API issue with helium vote.. they're looking into it
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davidzc "the Gentleman" 01/09/2022 1:30 PM
@Anthonyra will you take in account the full-duplex 16 channel new miners ???
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Jeff Alberda
why would hotspots not beacon? Whats the game there?
There are 3000+ units at the moment mysteriously not beaconing for over 10 days. These hotspots would instantly die. The issue is not on their side. Fix this, fix light hotspots, then think again about new HIP's. Put all our energy in getting the network to work how it should.
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:31 PM
It’s new please vote NO !
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davidzc "the Gentleman"
@Anthonyra will you take in account the full-duplex 16 channel new miners ???
what is the name of the miner? thanks in advance (edited)
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davidzc "the Gentleman"
@Anthonyra will you take in account the full-duplex 16 channel new miners ???
I don't think that'll really matter the limiters are based on poc_challenge_interval and poc_per_hop_max_witnesses chain variables... the current #1 hotspot only see's 536 witness rewards per day right now and the #1 hotspot with beacon witnesses have 165 unique witnesses..
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Sloth
There are 3000+ units at the moment mysteriously not beaconing for over 10 days. These hotspots would instantly die. The issue is not on their side. Fix this, fix light hotspots, then think again about new HIP's. Put all our energy in getting the network to work how it should.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:32 PM
Thank u 🙏
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Let’s not start yelling vote no or vote yes please
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Anthonyra
I don't think that'll really matter the limiters are based on poc_challenge_interval and poc_per_hop_max_witnesses chain variables... the current #1 hotspot only see's 536 witness rewards per day right now and the #1 hotspot with beacon witnesses have 165 unique witnesses..
davidzc "the Gentleman" 01/09/2022 1:32 PM
yes, but a full-duplex 16 channel, wil be like 4 miners in one
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davidzc "the Gentleman"
yes, but a full-duplex 16 channel, wil be like 4 miners in one
Their beacons will still be limited to 18 witnesses
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Anthonyra
There is a hard cap based on those limitations, with 6 and 18 it's 1296 witnesses per day. The best performing hotspots right now don't witness that much aside from when the Clever Smoke Raven was exploiting a man in the middle witness replay
If we look at the app/explorer, with “1296” witnesses, do you mean the witnessed beacons on the left or the Witnesses on the right?
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Anthonyra
Their beacons will still be limited to 18 witnesses
davidzc "the Gentleman" 01/09/2022 1:33 PM
when wil 35 witnesses be back 😉
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:34 PM
If this passes I’m sellin my offgrids on Craigslist lol this is sad to watch their are real issues that need to be looked into this is just dumb you are hurting the backbone of the network even when my offgrids don’t beacon I still transfer data like a lot lol isn’t that the point of this network to get used ?
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Technoking
If we look at the app/explorer, with “1296” witnesses, do you mean the witnessed beacons on the left or the Witnesses on the right?
The one on the right is the number of unique witnesses that hotspot had during the last 5 days. The number on the left is the total count of beacons and witnesses combined. When I say witness rewards it's the count of yellow witness receipts in the hotspots activity
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Deleted User 01/09/2022 1:36 PM
This hip is nonsense. Where do i vote a big fat 'NO'
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Deleted User
This hip is nonsense. Where do i vote a big fat 'NO'
Heliumvote.com
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Deleted User
This hip is nonsense. Where do i vote a big fat 'NO'
This proposal seeks to regulate the number of witnesses a Hotspot is rewarded for based on the success of beacons. By tying the reward for witnesses of Hotspots to successful beacons, we incentivize healthy network coverage. Votes for this HIP are considered a temperature check. The implementation of this HIP is not guaranteed and is subject to...
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Anthonyra
The one on the right is the number of unique witnesses that hotspot had during the last 5 days. The number on the left is the total count of beacons and witnesses combined. When I say witness rewards it's the count of yellow witness receipts in the hotspots activity
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:36 PM
Ur gonna kill this project single handed lol I sure hope this doesn’t get passed and u just go home lol I voted no and will continue to let ppl know how I feel that your targeting the best hotspots that provide the best coverage for our network
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Anthonyra
The one on the right is the number of unique witnesses that hotspot had during the last 5 days. The number on the left is the total count of beacons and witnesses combined. When I say witness rewards it's the count of yellow witness receipts in the hotspots activity
davidzc "the Gentleman" 01/09/2022 1:37 PM
i think it would be for the benefit of the network if you can get more witnesses per beacon. the 18 witnesses per beacon isn't. for the network the more witnesses the better the network
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Ur gonna kill this project single handed lol I sure hope this doesn’t get passed and u just go home lol I voted no and will continue to let ppl know how I feel that your targeting the best hotspots that provide the best coverage for our network
I appreciate your concerns and understand your frustrations but please keep this channel for technical and data related concerns of this HIP
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Na man this is very bad like please dont do this to us
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davidzc "the Gentleman"
i think it would be for the benefit of the network if you can get more witnesses per beacon. the 18 witnesses per beacon isn't. for the network the more witnesses the better the network
More witnesses would be better but outside of this HIP specifically. It could be increased in the near future if performance can be ensured
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Anthonyra
I appreciate your concerns and understand your frustrations but please keep this channel for technical and data related concerns of this HIP
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:38 PM
I’ve asked you multiple times if this hip involves fixing the main issue lol and u just blow me off
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Angry Pickle Bear 01/09/2022 1:38 PM
Be nice to Anthonyra, please. If you don't like the HIP, that's one thing, let's have civilized discussion. We're all here for the network.
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13:38
We're all trying to make Helium the biggest thing
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Angry Pickle Bear
We're all trying to make Helium the biggest thing
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:39 PM
So let’s not cut the legs off the miners that treat this like a part time job lol
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Angry Pickle Bear 01/09/2022 1:39 PM
No leg cutting please
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
I’ve asked you multiple times if this hip involves fixing the main issue lol and u just blow me off
I've also answered and provided data but you still insist that it's a bad idea. And I respect your opinion on this. It's suppose to ensure people are deploying setups that beacon while they witness.
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Cut your Ethernet cable please
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Anthonyra
I've also answered and provided data but you still insist that it's a bad idea. And I respect your opinion on this. It's suppose to ensure people are deploying setups that beacon while they witness.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:40 PM
Atm their are to many variables to reliably beacon light hotspots will fix this
13:41
I’ve mentioned ipv4 is broken
13:41
It got broke about a month ago after an update
13:41
So now we all relayed
13:41
And beacons are unstable
13:41
Why do I deserve to get punished for tht lol?
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
So let’s not cut the legs off the miners that treat this like a part time job lol
Angry Pickle Bear 01/09/2022 1:41 PM
I didn't say vote yes or no, I'm just saying we all want the network to be the best version of itself possible. Anthonyra is on the same team you are on.
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If the helium network could be trusted with consistent beaconing, I'd be for this HIP. It's can't he trusted though. I've gone up to 4 days before with 0 beacons sent despite everything else good. I witness others, just don't beacon myself for no reason.
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
I’ve mentioned ipv4 is broken
davidzc "the Gentleman" 01/09/2022 1:42 PM
let's implement arp-adress
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DaBum
If the helium network could be trusted with consistent beaconing, I'd be for this HIP. It's can't he trusted though. I've gone up to 4 days before with 0 beacons sent despite everything else good. I witness others, just don't beacon myself for no reason.
Angry Pickle Bear 01/09/2022 1:42 PM
So would you want to pass this HIP but after consistent beaconing is achieved?
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Angry Pickle Bear
I didn't say vote yes or no, I'm just saying we all want the network to be the best version of itself possible. Anthonyra is on the same team you are on.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:42 PM
I just want him to understand this HIP is mainly gonna effect offgrids and they provide some of the best coverage for this network
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
It got broke about a month ago after an update
davidzc "the Gentleman" 01/09/2022 1:42 PM
your not broke
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I think this HIP has great potential and @Anthonyra has put great effort in it. Credit to him for it. Just timing might be off for some folks here. Even if it's just a temperature vote.
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davidzc "the Gentleman"
your not broke
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:43 PM
Ipv4 vpn broke don’t use atm
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why are relayed hotspots allowed to create challeges? why the witness recepit cannot be sent trough p2p? I feel like we should fix the underlying issue before implementing #hip-42-beacon-witness-ratio-witness-reward-limit
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Ipv4 vpn broke don’t use atm
davidzc "the Gentleman" 01/09/2022 1:43 PM
i use wireguard. no problem (edited)
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Angry Pickle Bear
So would you want to pass this HIP but after consistent beaconing is achieved?
When the network is stable and not bricking miners randomly? Sure. I don't think it ever gets there because changes and updates are always needed.
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DigitalHuevos🥚 01/09/2022 1:44 PM
You think the network is bricking miners?
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davidzc "the Gentleman" 01/09/2022 1:44 PM
i started using it to prevent hours on hours installing on every location. now it's plug and play. insert cable done.
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davidzc "the Gentleman"
i use wireguard. no problem (edited)
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:44 PM
U lucky then I use wiregaurd same with @ayush and many others had issues beginning this month
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davidzc "the Gentleman" 01/09/2022 1:45 PM
have you done update ?
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Lnz
why are relayed hotspots allowed to create challeges? why the witness recepit cannot be sent trough p2p? I feel like we should fix the underlying issue before implementing #hip-42-beacon-witness-ratio-witness-reward-limit
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:46 PM
This whole hip is poorly thought out and has been rushed by someone that doesn’t even deploy hotspots idk tht makes no sense to me
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this fixes nothing
13:46
gamers will still be able to game
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davidzc "the Gentleman"
have you done update ?
Which update?
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
This whole hip is poorly thought out and has been rushed by someone that doesn’t even deploy hotspots idk tht makes no sense to me
What are you basing this on?
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we are just introducing another variable in the already fluctuating rewards due to other underlying issues
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Anthonyra
What are you basing this on?
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:47 PM
From everything I’ve just witnessed the last 15 mins lol
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
From everything I’ve just witnessed the last 15 mins lol
This HIP was submitted on 9/30/21... it wasn't rushed. I performed data analysis while developing this HIP with tools and data to back it. I also deploy a lot of hotspots. I've been a part of this community since 2019. I've learned Erlang and submitted multiple HIPs and helped with many others. Please refrain from saying things like this and if you have data to back anything that you're saying I'm all eyes and ears. (edited)
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@davidzc "the Gentleman" is this #hip-42-beacon-witness-ratio-witness-reward-limit related?
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can anybody give an answer to these questions why are relayed hotspots allowed to create challeges? why the witness recepit cannot be sent trough p2p if the challenger is relayed?
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Pffff, respect to @Anthonyra for coping with this. Some people will never understand. I came here to have a decent discussion, but that seems impossible
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Anthonyra
This HIP was submitted on 9/30/21... it wasn't rushed. I performed data analysis while developing this HIP with tools and data to back it. I also deploy a lot of hotspots. I've been a part of this community since 2019. I've learned Erlang and submitted multiple HIPs and helped with many others. Please refrain from saying things like this and if you have data to back anything that you're saying I'm all eyes and ears. (edited)
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:49 PM
that doesn’t make it a good/well thought out idea you are gonna hurt this network there will be no incentive to push for greatness
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Ah okay please move this to DMs or another channel. 🙏
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
that doesn’t make it a good/well thought out idea you are gonna hurt this network there will be no incentive to push for greatness
How can this ever hurt "the network"?
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molano
How can this ever hurt "the network"?
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:50 PM
It will mainly effect offgrid hotspots which atm are having issues with beacons without them you would just have oversaturated cites
facepalm 1
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ap
Ah okay please move this to DMs or another channel. 🙏
davidzc "the Gentleman" 01/09/2022 1:51 PM
done
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Lnz
can anybody give an answer to these questions why are relayed hotspots allowed to create challeges? why the witness recepit cannot be sent trough p2p if the challenger is relayed?
The reason is because libp2p is all off chain. CG needs to deterministically agree on every transaction. The relay status being off chain makes this agreement impossible.
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
It will mainly effect offgrid hotspots which atm are having issues with beacons without them you would just have oversaturated cites
Mmm, I do see your point, but I don't agree. There is more than only the US you know.
13:52
I mean, there is more than oversaturated cities, next to some off-grid hotspots
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molano
Mmm, I do see your point, but I don't agree. There is more than only the US you know.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:53 PM
I’m just saying you want to keep the community that treats this like a part time job happy don’t rock the boat
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This HIP is not agains off-grids, it's against those that cheat and have some constructions that make them witness a lot (and by having that construction it prevents them from beaconing). So this HIP is actually pretty good.
13:53
I don't mind the collateral damage for off-grids until ligth-hotspots are here.
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Anthonyra
The reason is because libp2p is all off chain. CG needs to deterministically agree on every transaction. The relay status being off chain makes this agreement impossible.
then why are we allowing relayed miners to challenge at all if the can't receive the recipit either way?
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
I’m just saying you want to keep the community that treats this like a part time job happy don’t rock the boat
The People's Network. Off-grids are just a very small part of it
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Lnz
then why are we allowing relayed miners to challenge at all if the can't receive the recipit either way?
Because it's too late now to try to fix that, as light hotspots will solve it anyway.
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molano
Because it's too late now to try to fix that, as light hotspots will solve it anyway.
because validators will issue the challenges instead. makes sense, we should implement that first then.
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molano
The People's Network. Off-grids are just a very small part of it
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 1:55 PM
Well I’m still sending 3-4 beacons a day atm hope it stays like tht if this gets passed kinda scary to think all my earns could vanish next update
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If your off-grid is connected via VPN does it make a difference? Asking for a friend 😅
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Lnz
then why are we allowing relayed miners to challenge at all if the can't receive the recipit either way?
The relay status isn't actually the issue. It's the time it takes to gossip this status across the network fwiw. We've had relayed hotspots since the beginning and there wasn't any issues. But when it take 24 hours to update all nodes peerbook about a node new relay it aggravates things greatly. Mind you, light hotspots is the fix for this issue and it's currently in development and currently being tested on testnet. This concern will be resolved shortly.
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Lnz
because validators will issue the challenges instead. makes sense, we should implement that first then.
Not first. But also
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VPN to server with static IP that is
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Well I’m still sending 3-4 beacons a day atm hope it stays like tht if this gets passed kinda scary to think all my earns could vanish next update
So you did not even bother to check the query on the ETL where you can probably clearly see it will not affect you at all?
13:58
Oh man, that's a bummer for you if you come in here complaining without any real data.
13:58
Let me help you out!!
13:58
Now do that and come back later. If one of your hotspots is impacted, let us know the name!
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Well I’m still sending 3-4 beacons a day atm hope it stays like tht if this gets passed kinda scary to think all my earns could vanish next update
3-4 beacons a day!!! Thats above average as the average is just over 3. So you wont be affected by a change that affects with way below average beacons.
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waveform
3-4 beacons a day!!! Thats above average as the average is just over 3. So you wont be affected by a change that affects with way below average beacons.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 2:01 PM
2-4 is more accurate
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Even then. With 1 beacon a day you will not be impacted at all.
14:02
How many witnesses do you have approx on average per day?
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molano
How many witnesses do you have approx on average per day?
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 2:02 PM
80-120
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Which is a lot IMHO. Check out the links above. Curious if you will be impacted!
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
80-120
You'd need to have less then 10 - 15 unique witnesses from beacons over the course of 5 days to limited... (edited)
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Anthonyra
You'd need to have less then 10 - 15 unique witnesses from beacons over the course of 5 days to limited... (edited)
Whats the current compensation factor?
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waveform
Whats the current compensation factor?
It's currently suggested to be set at 2 based on previous analysis..
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molano
Which is a lot IMHO. Check out the links above. Curious if you will be impacted!
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 2:04 PM
Won’t let me search my hotspots don’t come up
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Won’t let me search my hotspots don’t come up
small-hotspot-name
14:05
for the 2nd link
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is this website to open a new popup as when i am loging in with google nothing is happening
14:06
something goes on the bottom left but its too fast, i can't read it
14:07
ah it's redirecting somewhere but it doesn't
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@Anthonyra based on your analysis, hotspot that don't have more than 10 unique witness on 5 day basis are affected?
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Meemmo
@Anthonyra based on your analysis, hotspot that don't have more than 10 unique witness on 5 day basis are affected?
It's going to be hotspot specific..
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results on etl.dewi.org for my 3 hotspot says WLimited: False", but one of them is relayed for 4G
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molano
for the 2nd link
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 2:12 PM
Still can’t find it can u look for me ? Sticky grape mink
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Meemmo
results on etl.dewi.org for my 3 hotspot says WLimited: False", but one of them is relayed for 4G
If you got all false then you're okay
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Anthonyra
If you got all false then you're okay
Thank you sir
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when will this be implemented if the people vote for yes?
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Still can’t find it can u look for me ? Sticky grape mink
Can't paste picture her,e but you're good
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vendetta
when will this be implemented if the people vote for yes?
No date yet. But I'll be the one writing the code for it
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You can witness double as what you have now, based on the beacons of last 5 days
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Anthonyra
No date yet. But I'll be the one writing the code for it
Nice, what do you think Q1,Q2..?
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vendetta
Nice, what do you think Q1,Q2..?
Depends on how this vote goes. If it ends up being no it'll never land on chain. If it's yes, I'm thinking probably late Q1 if not early Q2
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molano
You can witness double as what you have now, based on the beacons of last 5 days
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 2:17 PM
Can you check glorious onyx blackbird to thank u 🙏
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people who are using non bi-directional amplifier are not going to like this one
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Can you check glorious onyx blackbird to thank u 🙏
All good. 326 with a limit of 1432.
14:19
As you can see, this will really not impact any of the "normal people".
🙏 1
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molano
As you can see, this will really not impact any of the "normal people".
people who are using amplifiers will get affected
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It's just a measure agains the obvious gamers we had some time ago.
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vendetta
people who are using amplifiers will get affected
Well, they can sell the amps on Ebay probably
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I wouldn't consider people using amplifiers being "normal people"
10k 4
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Anthonyra
I wouldn't consider people using amplifiers being "normal people"
idk man i rather have people who use amplifiers than people from china who place(spoof) random 60 hotspots in your hex (edited)
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vendetta
idk man i rather have people who use amplifiers than people from china who place(spoof) random 60 hotspots in your hex (edited)
Both are different topics compared to this HIP unfortunately... but I'd rather not see either fwiw
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Anthonyra
Both are different topics compared to this HIP unfortunately... but I'd rather not see either fwiw
yeah you are right
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molano
As you can see, this will really not impact any of the "normal people".
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 2:23 PM
I’m just worried it’s gonna lol beacons have been recently but I’ll go weeks and not send any
14:23
I don’t change anything beacons come and they go Thts why I don’t like this hip @Anthonyra
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
I’m just worried it’s gonna lol beacons have been recently but I’ll go weeks and not send any
Please stop spamming “vote no” everywhere
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Keenan
Please stop spamming “vote no” everywhere
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 2:24 PM
Okayy cause u asked nice (edited)
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heefi what amplifier are you using 🤣 🤣
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
I don’t change anything beacons come and they go Thts why I don’t like this hip @Anthonyra
Try to have some more clear view on your beaconing. Since it seems strange what you are saying. You can do that here: https://etl.dewi.org/dashboard/15-challenge-receipt-analysis-dashboard
14:26
All my 6 hotspots right now have sent between 11 and 19 beacons in the last 7 days. (11 is a hotspot with very bad internet - still needs to be fixed)
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vendetta
heefi what amplifier are you using 🤣 🤣
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 2:26 PM
Shhh
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if in a populated area already exist a transmit scale that reduce the earnings with the add of the reduction of the max witnesses then people with hotspots on populated areas will be negativelly affeted twice.... unless the transmit scale is dropped! (edited)
14:28
plus how to ensures that really every 360 blocks a hotspot beacons? my average is 1 or 2 beacons a day... how will you guarantee now for every 240 blocks? (edited)
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dreamer
if in a populated area already exist a transmit scale that reduce the earnings with the add of the reduction of the max witnesses then people with hotspots on populated areas will be negativelly affeted twice.... unless the transmit scale is dropped! (edited)
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 2:28 PM
Yo this a good point
14:29
And if we drop transmit scale we moving backwards
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
And if we drop transmit scale we moving backwards
these two measures are conflicting
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dreamer
plus how to ensures that really every 360 blocks a hotspot beacons? my average is 1 or 2 beacons a day... how will you guarantee now for every 240 blocks? (edited)
Again, even with 1 beacon a day, or even 1 every 2 days, you probably still be fine. Check the links in the pins to verify if your own hotspot will be impacted.
14:30
Next to that, the transmit scale is completely unrelated to any of this. I do not even understand how you can bring it in the mix here
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i like this hip
14:31
thank u sir anthony for this
14:32
🙏
14:32
i was wrong
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zero
i was wrong
No worries, thank you for the support!
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molano
Next to that, the transmit scale is completely unrelated to any of this. I do not even understand how you can bring it in the mix here
on a populated area it's easy to have lot's of witnesses... if the network start to drop the witness because there are too many you loose money... I can understand because is "overpopulated". but you also loose money because on an overpopulated area your transmit scale is already reduced... so you will loose twice...they are related because both will happen on overpopulated areas
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dreamer
on a populated area it's easy to have lot's of witnesses... if the network start to drop the witness because there are too many you loose money... I can understand because is "overpopulated". but you also loose money because on an overpopulated area your transmit scale is already reduced... so you will loose twice...they are related because both will happen on overpopulated areas
Please, use the tools that I created to see if your hotspots are affected... I can assure you that most city hotspots aren't in fact affected like you think they are
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Anthonyra
Please, use the tools that I created to see if your hotspots are affected... I can assure you that most city hotspots aren't in fact affected like you think they are
the problem is not only me...
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dreamer
on a populated area it's easy to have lot's of witnesses... if the network start to drop the witness because there are too many you loose money... I can understand because is "overpopulated". but you also loose money because on an overpopulated area your transmit scale is already reduced... so you will loose twice...they are related because both will happen on overpopulated areas
This HIP will drop nothing if you have one/some beacons per day. Again, give us some numbers of hotspots that witness SOOOO much that they will be impacted. Legit hotspots of course, from the people, not pimped with whatever amps and other stuff.
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dreamer
the problem is not only me...
But if everyone checks and ensures theirs isn't affected then the network isn't. I performed a complete chain analysis while developing this HIP and no "normal hotspots" are limited...
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plus, people in europe are already loosing money because the reach of a beacon is less due to the max 16,5dbi...
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dreamer
plus, people in europe are already loosing money because the reach of a beacon is less due to the max 16,5dbi...
Wrong, I did not loose 1 cent by POCv11. I lost because of flaky validators and p2p issues
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2 identical hotspots in 2 hypothetical areas, but on in europe and other in US, the US hotspot will have a higher reach and will witness and be witnesses for more hotspots (like I said, imagining same terrain and same number of neighbors)
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Europe has a better spreading factor
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molano
Wrong, I did not loose 1 cent by POCv11. I lost because of flaky validators and p2p issues
i still have my stock antenna of 2,2 dbi on my controllino and I had witnesses for more than 100km+ (edited)
14:40
no I don't have it
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 2:40 PM
How will this affect relayed hotspots ? @Anthonyra
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Keenan
Europe has a better spreading factor
but on equal situation, US have more possibility to earn more
14:43
I can only agree with this HIP if also takes into account the transmit scale... if already being reduced by the transmit scale, then should be taking in account before starting to drop witnesses (edited)
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So you rather have some peeps that game the system to continue gaming, impacting potentially everybody, than that we try to stop them, which potentially can maybe who knows I doubt it have an impact on some individuals?
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
How will this affect relayed hotspots ? @Anthonyra
Doesnt care or know
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molano
So you rather have some peeps that game the system to continue gaming, impacting potentially everybody, than that we try to stop them, which potentially can maybe who knows I doubt it have an impact on some individuals?
for me the hotspots should have GPS! like MatchX hotspots! the gaming would be much less
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Carl-bot BOT 01/09/2022 2:46 PM
cool story
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dreamer
for me the hotspots should have GPS! like MatchX hotspots! the gaming would be much less
This HIP has nothing to do with spoofing locations where GPS could be part of a solution (since it's very easy to spoof the GPS also), but to stop those that abuse some flakes in the network
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dreamer
for me the hotspots should have GPS! like MatchX hotspots! the gaming would be much less
They had gps. It was easily spoofed. That’s not a solution.
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
You witnessed 2 out of the 248 limit that would set on your hotspot
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waveform
Doesnt care or know
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 2:47 PM
Okay I’m slowly opening up to the idea of this HiP but until light hotspots and the network becomes more stable I’m nervous I pay a lot of money for each of my deployments that have monthly cell bills attached I don’t like the thought of losing earning cause it randomly stops like it has been doing the past month or soo
👍 1
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molano
This HIP has nothing to do with spoofing locations where GPS could be part of a solution (since it's very easy to spoof the GPS also), but to stop those that abuse some flakes in the network
but GPS together with PoC would be much hard
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dreamer
but GPS together with PoC would be much hard
It wouldn’t
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Anthonyra
You witnessed 2 out of the 248 limit that would set on your hotspot
Sorry i am really confused rn so will this affect my earnings or? (edited)
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much easier to game with just PoC
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OG hotspots used GPS when I started. Easily gamed.
14:49
Anyway thats not part of HIP-42
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ap
OG hotspots used GPS when I started. Easily gamed.
OG hotspots are indoor... GPS wouldn't work
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secretboy
Sorry i am really confused rn so will this affect my earnings or? (edited)
no
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dreamer
OG hotspots are indoor... GPS wouldn't work
I have OGs the GPS works but is easily gamed.
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secretboy
Sorry i am really confused rn so will this affect my earnings or? (edited)
This will really only affect the big earners (edited)
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Okay I’m slowly opening up to the idea of this HiP but until light hotspots and the network becomes more stable I’m nervous I pay a lot of money for each of my deployments that have monthly cell bills attached I don’t like the thought of losing earning cause it randomly stops like it has been doing the past month or soo
This HIP isn't intended to prevent you from getting those hard earned rewards. Hence why, I'm personally looking at individual hotspots and ensuring that they won't be affected. Even though I did 2 weeks of analysis putting this together doesn't mean the network status has changed. If this does land before light hotspots (which is not likely but possible... I'm not part of light hotspot development)... the compensation factor is meant to help.
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secretboy
Sorry i am really confused rn so will this affect my earnings or? (edited)
No, you wouldn't be affected
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Anthonyra
This HIP isn't intended to prevent you from getting those hard earned rewards. Hence why, I'm personally looking at individual hotspots and ensuring that they won't be affected. Even though I did 2 weeks of analysis putting this together doesn't mean the network status has changed. If this does land before light hotspots (which is not likely but possible... I'm not part of light hotspot development)... the compensation factor is meant to help.
Explain that factor to the people and how you can play with it....
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Anthonyra
This HIP isn't intended to prevent you from getting those hard earned rewards. Hence why, I'm personally looking at individual hotspots and ensuring that they won't be affected. Even though I did 2 weeks of analysis putting this together doesn't mean the network status has changed. If this does land before light hotspots (which is not likely but possible... I'm not part of light hotspot development)... the compensation factor is meant to help.
I appreciate the DeWi dashboards. Did you make those? In relation to the HIP. (edited)
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waveform
This will really only affect the big earners (edited)
By big earners you mean those that earn 1 k usd a month?
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secretboy
By big earners you mean those that earn 1 k usd a month?
If you are asking .... you are not 😉
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secretboy
Sorry i am really confused rn so will this affect my earnings or? (edited)
you will only get earnings affected if you have more than 540 witness on a 5 day sliding window
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secretboy
By big earners you mean those that earn 1 k usd a month?
Those that earn more than e.g. 2HNT/day with no legit setup
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dreamer
you will only get earnings affected if you have more than 540 witness on a 5 day sliding window
Its not "get" more witness, its witness more
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(as an example! not a fixed number!!!)
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molano
Explain that factor to the people and how you can play with it....
The compensation factor is a chain variable that looks at the theoretical max for beacons (4) compared to the average beacons being seen across the network. At the time of writing the HIP the theoretical (6) and the average was (3) resulting in 2. Today theoretical (4) and average (2.4) which the averaged is floored because the conservative approach so 2 still stands in my opinion. @waveform (edited)
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molano
Those that earn more than e.g. 2HNT/day with no legit setup
for me first time i get +/- 1HNT on course of this week 😂... I would dream to be able to earn 2HNT for a day... (edited)
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Okay thats great but my hotspot is relayed currently will that affect something after this is turned on
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secretboy
Okay thats great but my hotspot is relayed currently will that affect something after this is turned on
that you should solve it... hotspots should be well configured
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dreamer
that you should solve it... hotspots should be well configured
Yeah tried opening a port today, nothing
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today. nothing. How can you know so fast it's "nothing"?
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Anthonyra
This HIP isn't intended to prevent you from getting those hard earned rewards. Hence why, I'm personally looking at individual hotspots and ensuring that they won't be affected. Even though I did 2 weeks of analysis putting this together doesn't mean the network status has changed. If this does land before light hotspots (which is not likely but possible... I'm not part of light hotspot development)... the compensation factor is meant to help.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 2:55 PM
I think this hip has good intentions but the way the network has been I’m nervous… okay?
👍 3
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secretboy
Yeah tried opening a port today, nothing
have you tried to see here if is ok? https://app.heliumstatus.io/
Check & monitor the status of your Helium hotspot live
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molano
today. nothing. How can you know so fast it's "nothing"?
I mean i checked on port checker for 44158 and it says that port is closed even though i opened it
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 2:57 PM
If it cuts down gamers then thAts a really good thing I just hope it doesn’t cause More random issues cause network instability (edited)
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
I think this hip has good intentions but the way the network has been I’m nervous… okay?
I also it has good intentions... but need more work... that is what I was trying to say... not every case has been thinked
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dreamer
I also it has good intentions... but need more work... that is what I was trying to say... not every case has been thinked
which case?
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dreamer
I also it has good intentions... but need more work... that is what I was trying to say... not every case has been thinked
And this is what the current vote is for ..... is it worthy of more work.
👆 1
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Keenan
which case?
like I said, overpopulated areas can easly get lots of witness because are all close together... reducing earnings on overpopulated areas makes sense... but you should should or via transmit scale or via this HIP
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sorry not sure what that means (edited)
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waveform
And this is what the current vote is for ..... is it worthy of more work.
that's why i'm raising some questions... even I only own one hotspot and waiting for my second
15:00
so I don't belive I'll be affected to this, but I can foresee some cases that will be, in my opinion, wrongly
15:02
there is other HIP that I would also like see implemented, the blacklist... I've seen lots of HS that currently popup near me on water and on forest that I know and there are no homes there (edited)
15:03
in two weeks they appeared everywhere
15:04
i know well that forest because i usually hike, rock climb and MTB there...
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dreamer
there is other HIP that I would also like see implemented, the blacklist... I've seen lots of HS that currently popup near me on water and on forest that I know and there are no homes there (edited)
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 01/09/2022 3:04 PM
Could b off-grids or on buoys ?
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Could b off-grids or on buoys ?
Please dont get off subject. Goto #poc-discussion
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here probably 1/3 are fake:
15:06
ohh... an can't paste an image here
15:06
:/
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dreamer
ohh... an can't paste an image here
"blacklist" is #hip-40-validator-denylist if you wanna talk about it
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Could b off-grids or on buoys ?
i don't think so... yestarday I went on mountain biking on some of the places and I see nothing ... :/
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waveform
"blacklist" is #hip-40-validator-denylist if you wanna talk about it
yes... thank you
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dreamer
yes... thank you
This is offtopic for this HIP
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waveform
This is offtopic for this HIP
sorry
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Sma
where's the link to actually vote?
Helium Vote is where the Helium Community comes together to make decisions on the Network.
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quick question, I have a high earning miner. Will my earings be affected? name: Bumpy Cerulean Hornet
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Yassin
quick question, I have a high earning miner. Will my earings be affected? name: Bumpy Cerulean Hornet
GrandmaCrocodile 01/09/2022 3:18 PM
what kind of antenna do you have? your hotspot will be capped as far as I know.
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15% of the network hasn't been challenged/beaconed according to DeWi. So we would be penalized for a network issue
15:24
pct_not_challenged_recently 14.08 to be exact
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Yassin
quick question, I have a high earning miner. Will my earings be affected? name: Bumpy Cerulean Hornet
Right now, yours on average has 256 witness rewards per day. The limit based on your witness list is 248 which would mean on average you perform 8 witnesses more than currently allotted for. Do you mind describing your setup? It does appear it's considered to be relayed but based on current reward units it looks like a 0.016 hnt reduction per day if the current algorithm is utilized. If the compensation factor was set to 2.1 for example you'd not be effected which explains how close to the line your hotspot is. (edited)
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Anthonyra
Right now, yours on average has 256 witness rewards per day. The limit based on your witness list is 248 which would mean on average you perform 8 witnesses more than currently allotted for. Do you mind describing your setup? It does appear it's considered to be relayed but based on current reward units it looks like a 0.016 hnt reduction per day if the current algorithm is utilized. If the compensation factor was set to 2.1 for example you'd not be effected which explains how close to the line your hotspot is. (edited)
currently i'm using a 4g sim card. So i have no way to remove the relay status. When light hotspot are ready i'll get more witnesses, right? Thus it will not really effect my hotspot.
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GrandmaCrocodile
what kind of antenna do you have? your hotspot will be capped as far as I know.
Using a 5.8 antenna
15:32
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Yassin
Use a different hotspot and run a vpn to remove relay.
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Yassin
currently i'm using a 4g sim card. So i have no way to remove the relay status. When light hotspot are ready i'll get more witnesses, right? Thus it will not really effect my hotspot.
Based on what I'm seeing, I think you are being adversely affected by the relay (to be honest better then most these days). Thank you for reaching out and giving me another data point to make this HIP better!
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Just created a dashboard for the vote. Hopefully, I can get them to be public. Popped a screenshot of the current state here https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/739678096487088229/929879174167023666
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
The server was having a rough time, and it just loaded.. You'll not be affected by this HIP
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Your research and proposal is solid @Anthonyra Agree with everything said so voted for it in the pre-vote. Amazed we don't have more HIPs like this to counter different gaming methods. As well as to incentivize good-for-network Hotspot setups over the setups that only maxamize rewards (and hurting real usage at the same time)
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ap
Just created a dashboard for the vote. Hopefully, I can get them to be public. Popped a screenshot of the current state here https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/739678096487088229/929879174167023666
I might be able to make it public... if you have the link?
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@Anthonyra hey, do you have a write up on how to pull the data from explorer so we can calculate how our own hotspots would be affected? i see you ran the math for someone earlier but that wouldn't be sustainable for you to do for everyone asking, so i'd like to run some numbers so i know which way i would want to vote; thanks
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Anthonyra
I might be able to make it public... if you have the link?
15:42
It's in my personal collection...
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ap
It's in my personal collection...
Ahh I'm a "poweruser" but not on wishplorers level of "power" it seems
lolsob 1
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gtelnet
@Anthonyra hey, do you have a write up on how to pull the data from explorer so we can calculate how our own hotspots would be affected? i see you ran the math for someone earlier but that wouldn't be sustainable for you to do for everyone asking, so i'd like to run some numbers so i know which way i would want to vote; thanks
I have two different kinds of tools that utilize the DeWi ETL to caculate the effects per hotspot. You need to login with a gmail.com email to us it. https://etl.dewi.org/question/461-poc-witness-scaling-hip-42 (using public address of hotspot) or https://etl.dewi.org/question/624-poc-witness-scaling-by-name-hip-42 (using the name-name-name of the hotspot)
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Who exactly is this hip effecting? I’m a little confused? It seems like lower earning hotspots with bad setup.
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Anthonyra
I have two different kinds of tools that utilize the DeWi ETL to caculate the effects per hotspot. You need to login with a gmail.com email to us it. https://etl.dewi.org/question/461-poc-witness-scaling-hip-42 (using public address of hotspot) or https://etl.dewi.org/question/624-poc-witness-scaling-by-name-hip-42 (using the name-name-name of the hotspot)
as I suspected: limited: false 🙂
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eoin9876
Who exactly is this hip effecting? I’m a little confused? It seems like lower earning hotspots with bad setup.
It will affect any hotspot that doesn't beacon proportionate to the amount it witnesses..
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Anthonyra
It will affect any hotspot that doesn't beacon proportionate to the amount it witnesses..
What might cause you to beacon disproportionately?
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Anthonyra
I have two different kinds of tools that utilize the DeWi ETL to caculate the effects per hotspot. You need to login with a gmail.com email to us it. https://etl.dewi.org/question/461-poc-witness-scaling-hip-42 (using public address of hotspot) or https://etl.dewi.org/question/624-poc-witness-scaling-by-name-hip-42 (using the name-name-name of the hotspot)
the DB is complete?
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ap
It's in my personal collection...
I don't have enough power either apparently
coolcry 1
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Anthonyra
I have two different kinds of tools that utilize the DeWi ETL to caculate the effects per hotspot. You need to login with a gmail.com email to us it. https://etl.dewi.org/question/461-poc-witness-scaling-hip-42 (using public address of hotspot) or https://etl.dewi.org/question/624-poc-witness-scaling-by-name-hip-42 (using the name-name-name of the hotspot)
this one is very odd to me... relayed and transmit scale of 0.75 and getting 1.168HNTfrom last 24h: https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112eCKzj9GJecSGLEeda4btbRMz13hvqT1WWFSDkjTkBs8TBszNZ (edited)
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eoin9876
What might cause you to beacon disproportionately?
The hotspot could have been purposely built that way like in attempt to game such as witness replaying. It could be a local network issue (port not forwarded, dynamic vs static public IPs, or just plan laziness)
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and doesn't appear on any of your both links
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dreamer
this one is very odd to me... relayed and transmit scale of 0.75 and getting 1.168HNTfrom last 24h: https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112eCKzj9GJecSGLEeda4btbRMz13hvqT1WWFSDkjTkBs8TBszNZ (edited)
I was able to pull it up with, https://etl.dewi.org/question/461-poc-witness-scaling-hip-42?address=112eCKzj9GJecSGLEeda4btbRMz13hvqT1WWFSDkjTkBs8TBszNZ... I think the DeWi server is having a hard time with all the requests 😅 ... however it's not limited. It witnessed 443 the last 5 days and it's limit is 832
👍 1
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Anthonyra
I was able to pull it up with, https://etl.dewi.org/question/461-poc-witness-scaling-hip-42?address=112eCKzj9GJecSGLEeda4btbRMz13hvqT1WWFSDkjTkBs8TBszNZ... I think the DeWi server is having a hard time with all the requests 😅 ... however it's not limited. It witnessed 443 the last 5 days and it's limit is 832
but is very odd how being relayed and a transmit scale of 0.75 and earning this much
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Anthonyra
I have two different kinds of tools that utilize the DeWi ETL to caculate the effects per hotspot. You need to login with a gmail.com email to us it. https://etl.dewi.org/question/461-poc-witness-scaling-hip-42 (using public address of hotspot) or https://etl.dewi.org/question/624-poc-witness-scaling-by-name-hip-42 (using the name-name-name of the hotspot)
Quick suggestion on terminology to make it easier to understand when reading the HIP. Change "witnessed" to "witnessed receipts" and "limit" to "receipts limit cap" - what do you think?
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Anthonyra
The hotspot could have been purposely built that way like in attempt to game such as witness replaying. It could be a local network issue (port not forwarded, dynamic vs static public IPs, or just plan laziness)
so like 90% of the network?
15:57
not the gaming part but the port, dynamic, etc..
🧐 1
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Anthonyra
I have two different kinds of tools that utilize the DeWi ETL to caculate the effects per hotspot. You need to login with a gmail.com email to us it. https://etl.dewi.org/question/461-poc-witness-scaling-hip-42 (using public address of hotspot) or https://etl.dewi.org/question/624-poc-witness-scaling-by-name-hip-42 (using the name-name-name of the hotspot)
Been wrestling the login issue for metabase for over a week now. Will keep working on it. Thanks!
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waveform
Quick suggestion on terminology to make it easier to understand when reading the HIP. Change "witnessed" to "witnessed receipts" and "limit" to "receipts limit cap" - what do you think?
That's good, I'll add that to my revision that I'm working on at the moment
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Anthonyra
That's good, I'll add that to my revision that I'm working on at the moment
And is "witnesses" = "your witnesses"?
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dreamer
but is very odd how being relayed and a transmit scale of 0.75 and earning this much
and has witnesses at 174km?? 😳
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dreamer
and has witnesses at 174km?? 😳
If that's in EU (BE/NL) perfectly possible, even with POCv11.
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waveform
And is "witnesses" = "your witnesses"?
I use witnesses a lot.. is there a particular spot that needs more clarification?
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dreamer
and has witnesses at 174km?? 😳
nah, that mouse is just not asserted correctly. it's also in the middle of Portugal
16:03
You can easily see that when you check that hotspot by itself
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Anthonyra
I use witnesses a lot.. is there a particular spot that needs more clarification?
on the tool I ment. So many get mixed up when they talk about witnesses. Are "witnesses" the hotspots witnesses to its beacons or a list of unique hotspots that witness the hotspot, or a list of unique hotspots that the hotspot has witnessed
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waveform
on the tool I ment. So many get mixed up when they talk about witnesses. Are "witnesses" the hotspots witnesses to its beacons or a list of unique hotspots that witness the hotspot, or a list of unique hotspots that the hotspot has witnessed
Ahh, I'll also make sure the HIP is written with the same language as well then. But you're right I should fix the labels to be clearer
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I often go days without being challenged, what happens then, do I get penalised? Also when challenged by a relayed hotspot, beacons return zero witnesses, again am I penalised for someone else's relay?
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molano
nah, that mouse is just not asserted correctly. it's also in the middle of Portugal
mouse?
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molano
You can easily see that when you check that hotspot by itself
on the witnesses list appears the distance
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waveform
on the tool I ment. So many get mixed up when they talk about witnesses. Are "witnesses" the hotspots witnesses to its beacons or a list of unique hotspots that witness the hotspot, or a list of unique hotspots that the hotspot has witnessed
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seems good to me... and I would like I could get that earnings...lol 😛
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dreamer
mouse?
Mouse is the hotspot that down in the south. That is not where it really is, it's actually in the middle of Portugal. So that witness of 140km is fakeµ
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molano
Mouse is the hotspot that down in the south. That is not where it really is, it's actually in the middle of Portugal. So that witness of 140km is fakeµ
ahh! I see... so we found another gaming the system
facepalm 1
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dreamer
ahh! I see... so we found another gaming the system
That's not gaming at all.
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let's see if will be affected by this
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But it should be updated with correct location.
16:16
And POCv11 should actually block this based on asserted distance.
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dreamer
let's see if will be affected by this
Are you daydreaming off topic again? facepalm
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But he will not earn a penny more just for that wrong asserting
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good lord
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molano
And POCv11 should actually block this based on asserted distance.
yeap... but is still earning... :/
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dreamer
yeap... but is still earning... :/
nvm
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waveform
Are you daydreaming off topic again? facepalm
just trying to find some that will be affected because some don't seems legit
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dreamer
yeap... but is still earning... :/
I understand your concerns here, however the issues you're pointing out aren't related to this HIP specifically. These are I agree an issue that should be fixed. However, we can't simply expect on thing to fix all of these issues. We need to systematically and with a passion squash out the underlying problems. This HIP is meant to strengthen the network as a whole by bringing back beacons to witnesses ratios and along with protecting against witness replay... witness repeating might be a better terminology. Once this is implemented, you bet I intend to help tackle those remaining issues. (edited)
👍 8
💪 1
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Anthonyra
I understand your concerns here, however the issues you're pointing out aren't related to this HIP specifically. These are I agree an issue that should be fixed. However, we can't simply expect on thing to fix all of these issues. We need to systematically and with a passion squash out the underlying problems. This HIP is meant to strengthen the network as a whole by bringing back beacons to witnesses ratios and along with protecting against witness replay... witness repeating might be a better terminology. Once this is implemented, you bet I intend to help tackle those remaining issues. (edited)
100% agree with this. there are multiple solutions to help the network tend towards providing optimal and wide coverage.
16:23
approaches have to be some combination of economic, social, and technical in nature.
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Anthonyra
I understand your concerns here, however the issues you're pointing out aren't related to this HIP specifically. These are I agree an issue that should be fixed. However, we can't simply expect on thing to fix all of these issues. We need to systematically and with a passion squash out the underlying problems. This HIP is meant to strengthen the network as a whole by bringing back beacons to witnesses ratios and along with protecting against witness replay... witness repeating might be a better terminology. Once this is implemented, you bet I intend to help tackle those remaining issues. (edited)
I agree with you... one step at a time. 🙂
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@Anthonyra deep-linen-hornet is one that should be affected I think but I get no results, it never beaconed yet witnessed a huge amount. Its still witnessing but most of the hotspots it used to witness were a big network that all stopped earning and went offline this year.
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waveform
@Anthonyra deep-linen-hornet is one that should be affected I think but I get no results, it never beaconed yet witnessed a huge amount. Its still witnessing but most of the hotspots it used to witness were a big network that all stopped earning and went offline this year.
I utilize some tables that are populated on the ETL side of the house. I'm not sure the frequency this occurs but that hotspot hasn't had a witness receipt in 3 days.. and a lot longer since it's beaconed. I wonder if the Database doesn't have it since the query only goes back the last 5 days? (edited)
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FezzFest
Apparently there's a difference between burning HNT and transferring HNT
I'll make sure this payment transaction gets reversed when the vote is done.
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❤️
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Anthonyra
I utilize some tables that are populated on the ETL side of the house. I'm not sure the frequency this occurs but that hotspot hasn't had a witness receipt in 3 days.. and a lot longer since it's beaconed. I wonder if the Database doesn't have it since the query only goes back the last 5 days? (edited)
But if it was back witnessing and earning 1-2HNT and never beaconing as it used to, should it still flag up as "true"
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waveform
But if it was back witnessing and earning 1-2HNT and never beaconing as it used to, should it still flag up as "true"
Yes it would be flagged if it was witnessing that much without associated beacons
🪄 1
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Have not read the whole history yet but is it possible to crunch existing historical data with hip42 logic and see how exactly and how many hotspots it would affect. As well as too look at some known cheating hotspots?
19:07
That would be a great addition to the Impact section of the hip
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demon_xxi
Have not read the whole history yet but is it possible to crunch existing historical data with hip42 logic and see how exactly and how many hotspots it would affect. As well as too look at some known cheating hotspots?
here's some links that should do that for you; i haven't been able to login to this site though, so haven't tried yet https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/897221256607301703/929883337093423125
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So to put in a nutshell: If HIP42 is implemented we will only receive reward for witnesses based on successful beacons. Meaning those of us who are little bit out in wilderness can get hit pretty bad… correct?
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If u don’t beacon or are relayed your witness receipts will be dropped and u won’t be earning
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What does being relayed have to do with witness receipts being dropped? That’s an outbound p2p connection to the challenger so your hotspot’s relay status should not affect you there. (edited)
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infinitude
So to put in a nutshell: If HIP42 is implemented we will only receive reward for witnesses based on successful beacons. Meaning those of us who are little bit out in wilderness can get hit pretty bad… correct?
Based on the logic described in the HIP, a “wilderness” hotspot is only affected if they solely witness distant hotspots but none of their beacons are heard by other hotspots.
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dreamer
this one is very odd to me... relayed and transmit scale of 0.75 and getting 1.168HNTfrom last 24h: https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112eCKzj9GJecSGLEeda4btbRMz13hvqT1WWFSDkjTkBs8TBszNZ (edited)
This one is very normal. Good height, good amount of witnesses with decent transmit scales, no excessive beacons
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Anthonyra
I understand your concerns here, however the issues you're pointing out aren't related to this HIP specifically. These are I agree an issue that should be fixed. However, we can't simply expect on thing to fix all of these issues. We need to systematically and with a passion squash out the underlying problems. This HIP is meant to strengthen the network as a whole by bringing back beacons to witnesses ratios and along with protecting against witness replay... witness repeating might be a better terminology. Once this is implemented, you bet I intend to help tackle those remaining issues. (edited)
Well said! Thank you for the work on this hip
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If the problem addressed is the illegal packet forwarding... why not to work on an IP level, controlling the hop number? This is how many internet providers prevent the use of mobile Simcard with unlimited internet in fixed home routers
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There are multiple ways to Rome. This hip is a very good first option
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Just for me to take an informed decision on my vote. Do I understand correctly that successful beacons are used to determine the amount of witnessing I am allowed to perform? And if so, beaconing seems very random as a request by the challenger. How Am I affected by this HIP if that beaconing is so inconsistent. If I'm misunderstanding, please elaborate.
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I've had a good read through of the HIP and in principle I thought this sort of made sense but I'm a bit surprised my hotspot is allegedly affected because I have a genuine setup as good as I can get it I think and one of the better ones providing coverage in my town and yet it seems I'm within the target list for this hip (https://etl.dewi.org/question/461-poc-witness-scaling-hip-42?address=112KVEvBawFScQeXgmzLGAZLG3mAozQFchig3NzPKBi5FYKvQGdk)
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James B
I've had a good read through of the HIP and in principle I thought this sort of made sense but I'm a bit surprised my hotspot is allegedly affected because I have a genuine setup as good as I can get it I think and one of the better ones providing coverage in my town and yet it seems I'm within the target list for this hip (https://etl.dewi.org/question/461-poc-witness-scaling-hip-42?address=112KVEvBawFScQeXgmzLGAZLG3mAozQFchig3NzPKBi5FYKvQGdk)
Similalalry I looked at one Im pretty sure is a "good" hotspot with a "good" setup and its getting penalised https://etl.dewi.org/question/624-poc-witness-scaling-by-name-hip-42?name=late-mossy-bear I wonder what the owner could do to not be affected.
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I'm also wondering whether the max EIRP allowed in regions such as the EU of 14dbm compared to the 27dbm allowed in the USA would disproportionately affect hotspots with this HIP
01:44
I'd think in theory it shouldn't be a factor but I can't be certain in reality
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waveform
Similalalry I looked at one Im pretty sure is a "good" hotspot with a "good" setup and its getting penalised https://etl.dewi.org/question/624-poc-witness-scaling-by-name-hip-42?name=late-mossy-bear I wonder what the owner could do to not be affected.
His last beacon sent 6th Jan would show he's a good candidate for this hip in some way or there is something wrong with his hotspot. I'm not sure if your intention was to question my hotspot set up or not but I am beaconing reasonably well
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James B
His last beacon sent 6th Jan would show he's a good candidate for this hip in some way or there is something wrong with his hotspot. I'm not sure if your intention was to question my hotspot set up or not but I am beaconing reasonably well
I think it falls into the "unfortunatley not challenged enough recently" catagory. Is that yourself too.
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my last 5 days are 4,2,4,4,1(failed with 0 due to challenger issue I suspect)
02:30
I'm guessing the low number yesterday is just the random luck of the network and being challenged
02:30
But then you'd also expect if that happens that you'd get random luck and beacon more than 4 (which I think is the target/day at the moment) occasionally (edited)
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I'm not sure what the network avg num beacons/day is at the moment or where we could find that but I have a feeling it is below 4 by a fair amount
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14% of hotspots haven't beaconed in a while. Number is growing. So they would be affected (edited)
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So with HIP42 is this likely to arrive after the control of challenges is passed to validators (light hotspots I think) so we don't rely on relayed challengers etc?
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Sloth
14% of hotspots haven't beaconed in a while. Number is growing. So they would be affected (edited)
So my initial question is - why is the percentage growing. What would be causing that?
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James B
I'm not sure what the network avg num beacons/day is at the moment or where we could find that but I have a feeling it is below 4 by a fair amount
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Ah 2.4 - thanks
waveform pinned a message to this channel. 01/10/2022 3:49 AM
waveform pinned a message to this channel. 01/10/2022 3:52 AM
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James B
So my initial question is - why is the percentage growing. What would be causing that?
A) more cheaters B) more people with an offline/ineffective hotspot, as they struggle to find a good location or setup
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Woutch (Wouter) 01/10/2022 4:30 AM
C) My hotspot is perfectly fine, but stopped beaconing or seeing witnesses since 8 days... (p2p issues???)
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Anthonyra
I have two different kinds of tools that utilize the DeWi ETL to caculate the effects per hotspot. You need to login with a gmail.com email to us it. https://etl.dewi.org/question/461-poc-witness-scaling-hip-42 (using public address of hotspot) or https://etl.dewi.org/question/624-poc-witness-scaling-by-name-hip-42 (using the name-name-name of the hotspot)
HNT.solutions 01/10/2022 4:53 AM
I keep getting error messages on both pages.
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James B
I've had a good read through of the HIP and in principle I thought this sort of made sense but I'm a bit surprised my hotspot is allegedly affected because I have a genuine setup as good as I can get it I think and one of the better ones providing coverage in my town and yet it seems I'm within the target list for this hip (https://etl.dewi.org/question/461-poc-witness-scaling-hip-42?address=112KVEvBawFScQeXgmzLGAZLG3mAozQFchig3NzPKBi5FYKvQGdk)
Your's is a very interesting case, it appear that the most recent beacon was affected by the 0 witness beacon issue. However, even then your hotspots beacons have remained relatively constant. When it comes to the witness list its the count of unique witnesses which means that only 12 hotspots within the last 5 days is able to hear yours beacon. However, you're able to hear 19 different hotspots constantly.. if you had 14 witnesses you'd be fine. Out of curiosity did you upgrade your antenna on that setup and mounted in higher? Just another way to look at it, your hotspot is currently 63% bi-directional in nature to pass with current HIP compensation factor you'd need to be 73%... so it's very close. When it comes to how affected you will be, if left as is (the HIP) you'd drop 4 witness receipts on average a day and based on the current reward unit you'd be lowered by ~0.08 HNT a day. When the HIP was written the 0 witness beacons were less of a factor then the difference between theoretical max for beacons and what was actually the average per day.
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Carl-bot BOT 01/10/2022 5:04 AM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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Anthonyra
Your's is a very interesting case, it appear that the most recent beacon was affected by the 0 witness beacon issue. However, even then your hotspots beacons have remained relatively constant. When it comes to the witness list its the count of unique witnesses which means that only 12 hotspots within the last 5 days is able to hear yours beacon. However, you're able to hear 19 different hotspots constantly.. if you had 14 witnesses you'd be fine. Out of curiosity did you upgrade your antenna on that setup and mounted in higher? Just another way to look at it, your hotspot is currently 63% bi-directional in nature to pass with current HIP compensation factor you'd need to be 73%... so it's very close. When it comes to how affected you will be, if left as is (the HIP) you'd drop 4 witness receipts on average a day and based on the current reward unit you'd be lowered by ~0.08 HNT a day. When the HIP was written the 0 witness beacons were less of a factor then the difference between theoretical max for beacons and what was actually the average per day.
Thanks for the reply - My hotspot went in at the end of July '21 and 2 weeks later I had my McGill 6dbi tuned antenna mounted on a pole on the roof to get it to about 11m with 6m lmr400. It has been like that ever since. The only thing I have done about 3 weeks ago is re-asserted the antenna to 5.1dbi instead of 6 to cater for about 0.9db of cable/connection losses which I understood to be fair and trying to be accurate
05:07
I'm also wondering if the changes from this HIP will leave more hnt in the pot to reward the rest to slightly offset the losses but perhaps you have already taken that into account in your calculations
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James B
Thanks for the reply - My hotspot went in at the end of July '21 and 2 weeks later I had my McGill 6dbi tuned antenna mounted on a pole on the roof to get it to about 11m with 6m lmr400. It has been like that ever since. The only thing I have done about 3 weeks ago is re-asserted the antenna to 5.1dbi instead of 6 to cater for about 0.9db of cable/connection losses which I understood to be fair and trying to be accurate
I know a lot of people recommend high gain and high elevation for hotspots. This is true if you're optimizing for range but you may benefit more if you lower the gain and focus on the cluster you're in (not professional advice just something I'd think about if I were you) Also, I didn't factor in the increase rewards per event because I don't like spending money that I don't have. However, there's going to be a broad flattening of rewards so a loss in counts could be offset by amount in the counts that you do get. The network is big and growing so fast if I publish a calculation today it'll be wrong tomorrow.. (edited)
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I would say hotspot firmware (that can cause brief periods of dead activity or can randomly set you a few thousand blocks behind causing you then to take action to resync it asap but offline during that period), network and other hotspot owner reliability/management are the real major issues impacting my hotspot and some others in my local area. It also seems the majority are not externally mounted antennas although I know a few are and they're the ones that do better (as you'd expect). But the sheer number of hotspots that seem to be being placed indoors is a shame (partly from how they were described by the youtube community early on) but also that has a bigger impact in the UK where eirp is significantly (can't remember if it's 10 or 20 times less than the UK - 14dmb vs 27dbm)
05:12
Understood and fair on spending money you don't have in the case of events. And yeah the variables are always changing so hard to calculate or keep an accurate impact report up to date
05:14
I'm optimised really to provide good solid coverage. I come from a hobby background of making iot devices so I want what I provide to be good, not just tuned to make the most hnt. So I went with what seemed as good a setup as I could do given my house/location. I have wondered if 4dbi or 3dbi might be better but it's so hard to know, and there's a cost with getting someone in to get up on the roof to change antennas and possibly have to switch back again (another cost)
05:15
I see see a lot of hotspots lately have been jumping back to syncing - I wonder why this is happening. But bobcats certainly seem to suddenly drop to a few thousand blocks behind. I'm not sure why or what is doing this - either bugger OTA firmware or possibly something related to the internal storage filling up and resetting back to a blessed snapshot and then re-syncing from there. But every time this happens to various hotspots it affects the local hotspots around and the network
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I also did some tweaks to the algorithm to see how days affect you.. you max out on witness if the scale was set a 60 days which resulted in a wits list of 18.. but that could be because someone went offline or even moved during that timeframe. On the other side you drop down to 9 if only look at the last 2 days were used to calculate.. but 0 if you use 24 hours... Now, like hashc0de mentioned earlier, there's a balance that needs to be found for what right for the entire network, what's right for the individual, and what's technologically possible on the blockchain. (edited)
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So the given how hard I've tried, it seems a shame that I will be in scope to be impacted. However - if I run the report in a week it might go the other way. So again it's hard to know. But it does seem I'm close to the threshold
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Anthonyra
I also did some tweaks to the algorithm to see how days affect you.. you max out on witness if the scale was set a 60 days which resulted in a wits list of 18.. but that could be because someone went offline or even moved during that timeframe. On the other side you drop down to 9 if only look at the last 2 days were used to calculate.. but 0 if you use 24 hours... Now, like hashc0de mentioned earlier, there's a balance that needs to be found for what right for the entire network, what's right for the individual, and what's technologically possible on the blockchain. (edited)
Understood, I would like to understand if given my setup I'm an odd edge case, doing something wrong, or whether a slight tweak to the calculation is still needed. But also I know there is no one calculation that is perfect for all cases and there are limits to what is achievable technologically
05:19
If this would come after control of beaconing is handled by validators and the eraticness of beacon challenges from random hotspots (and possibly bad ones that are relayed) then it's possible things get a bit smoother, certainly than they are now
05:20
It's not just me either - I'm in contact with another hotspot owner very close by who also has got a setup that is good who would be impacted. Now we may both be impacted because of other oddly behaving hotspots around us or it may be a location thing, but the point is it's not just me as a one off (edited)
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James B
Understood, I would like to understand if given my setup I'm an odd edge case, doing something wrong, or whether a slight tweak to the calculation is still needed. But also I know there is no one calculation that is perfect for all cases and there are limits to what is achievable technologically
With the cluster around you I'd expect you to have more witnesses.. it feels like you're overshooting the local nodes. When you start doing that it's definitely easier to hear far away beacons then having those node hear you back for sure.
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any specific nodes you think I'm overshooting? There are only 2 or 3 I can think of that you could be considering - one is offline, another is behind a bank of trees and can't see anyone and the other is the other side of small ground elevation change between us
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A lot of the hotspots in your local cluster appear up high (different levels though) with high gain antennas and all exhibit the similar witnesses to witnessed like your are... 🤔
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there are only 1 or 2 that are of significant height - more than say 15m that would be in tall buildings
05:26
A number of the hotspots that are well set up have their antennas on poles attached to their roof/chimneys like mine that get them to 9-11m AGL
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James B
there are only 1 or 2 that are of significant height - more than say 15m that would be in tall buildings
Kind of out of scope here, there are things I'm going to look into with the algorithm... but I've helped deploy a relatively big cluster of hotspots. At the time the word on the street was to go high with both elevation and gain. We noticed when doing that in a local cluster you tend to overshoot more. Moving an antenna with hopes of doing better with helium right now is also not a good approach. Needless to say thank you for bring you case up and I'll see if I need to factor in 0 witness beacons in more or not. Side note I'd be interested to see a mapper (set to max packets) in your local cluster to see ground level interactions
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I should mention I monitor my hotspot closely and take action if it looks like it's not behaving properly. I have automation that monitors the hotspot gap and if it even gets above 50 I get an alert. I'm a techie so no issues with that. So I don't know what more I can do
05:31
Hah - funny you should mention mapper - I have a ttgo tbeam on the way at the moment. Firmware compiled, console all pre-configured ready to go. Just need the unit. I noticed a distanct lack of mapping here so was planning to fix that myself
05:32
Thank you for your consideration of my case. I'm not after anything that isn't sensible for the whole but just if there are some cases where people have done their best for the network and yet would be affected for whatever reason it is good to examine and refine where possible. 👍
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James B
Thank you for your consideration of my case. I'm not after anything that isn't sensible for the whole but just if there are some cases where people have done their best for the network and yet would be affected for whatever reason it is good to examine and refine where possible. 👍
I totally agree, I'd be interested to hear about your mapping project! It will give you some good insight to expectation with out moving your hotspot and dealing with the bloody slow pickup we are seeing for configuration changes. Your setup performance does seem odd though at face value for what it's worth... (edited)
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yeah I honestly don't know what to change/do to be better. It really feels like we're at the mercy of reliability of the network and manufacturer firmware as well as people not noticing their hotspots are offline or if they do they do nothing about it - there are 3 I think in the local area that fit that case and I'd love to know why but will probably never know
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James B
yeah I honestly don't know what to change/do to be better. It really feels like we're at the mercy of reliability of the network and manufacturer firmware as well as people not noticing their hotspots are offline or if they do they do nothing about it - there are 3 I think in the local area that fit that case and I'd love to know why but will probably never know
Those could also be the three that pushed you over the edge for this HIP.. I do think that this will be implemented after light hotspots though.. "hopefully" because it's going to take me some time to code and it's been a draft HIP for almost 4 months already. It'll make this HIP easier to grasp once 0 witness beacons and more hotspots beacon more frequently
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yep. The 3 that are offline have been for a while. I'm not sure what time period your calculation covers (looks like 5 days from the sql) and they have been offline a lot longer than that
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James B
yep. The 3 that are offline have been for a while. I'm not sure what time period your calculation covers (looks like 5 days from the sql) and they have been offline a lot longer than that
If you go back 60 days you have 18 wits on your list
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60 days would put me just before one of those went offline but oddly it was invalid due to being too close/strong and I thought PoCv11 was going to fix that for me but then it went offline before pocv11 activated 🤦‍♂️
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Question regarding this HIP. Wouldn't it be easier to not allow relayed hotspots to be challengers?
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That seems sensible if it can be done but I have a suspicion that may not be simple to implement. If you exclude beacons from relayed challengers because the results may be faulty you'd have to replace it in the calculation with a good beacon probably with max allowed witnesses to substitute, as I can see it
07:03
Ultimately if this comes after hotspots being the component that issues the challenges changes to being validators, the whole concept of relayed chalengers goes away doesn't it? (edited)
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CryptoIcE
Question regarding this HIP. Wouldn't it be easier to not allow relayed hotspots to be challengers?
That would stop hotspots who cannot get out of relayed from being capped yes (till validators take over), but it would not cap some of the "cheating" hotspots who "decide" not to challenge from still being able to earn, which is partially what this HIP is aimed at doing.
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waveform
That would stop hotspots who cannot get out of relayed from being capped yes (till validators take over), but it would not cap some of the "cheating" hotspots who "decide" not to challenge from still being able to earn, which is partially what this HIP is aimed at doing.
I see how that makes sense with the part to stop cheating. Things aren’t always black and white I guess. Thank you for the response.
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Custom50ford 01/10/2022 8:16 AM
So, My hotspot is setup correctly but has gone 3-5 DAYS without a beacon more than once...and all challenges sent over that period result in 0 witnesses...
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 8:20 AM
This seems to be another punish those with good setups that are providing good coverage for poc hip. (edited)
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Custom50ford 01/10/2022 8:24 AM
And another one of my miners (also properly setup) is currently down to 35 from almost 200 witnesses because lack of challenges...
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
This seems to be another punish those with good setups that are providing good coverage for poc hip. (edited)
I see it like that to and i would like to know what happens to those hotspots which didnt sent out a beacon for 1-2 days, will they get punished ? A lot of bobcats in my area didnt set out beacons for days, there far away from 4 a day
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So my miner’s low activity might be caused by this beacon/witness ration?
08:39
I m having very low activity and sometime i feel my miner is dead
08:39
Ratio*
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waveform
That would stop hotspots who cannot get out of relayed from being capped yes (till validators take over), but it would not cap some of the "cheating" hotspots who "decide" not to challenge from still being able to earn, which is partially what this HIP is aimed at doing.
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 8:40 AM
"but it would not cap some of the "cheating" hotspots who "decide" not to challenge from still being able to earn, which is partially what this HIP is aimed at doing." Then those miners that are actively gaming the system should be put on the sus list and have hip 40 acted against them once consensus has been reached. Don't punish those that are providing good POC which is the aim of Helium right? (edited)
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STACKIN BAGS $-ERGO-$ 01/10/2022 8:41 AM
word...
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 8:43 AM
Shall we look forward to a hip that will do the same once data is the majority of rewards? Limit how much data one can transfer?
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
"but it would not cap some of the "cheating" hotspots who "decide" not to challenge from still being able to earn, which is partially what this HIP is aimed at doing." Then those miners that are actively gaming the system should be put on the sus list and have hip 40 acted against them once consensus has been reached. Don't punish those that are providing good POC which is the aim of Helium right? (edited)
Those non transmitting hotspots can circumvent this HIP as well by just letting a few beacons through to the outside world. Although that would mean they need 1 antenna near the location that a cluster would be asserted on. So it would probably only work slightly against the small "chinese clusters". (edited)
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Sloth
Those non transmitting hotspots can circumvent this HIP as well by just letting a few beacons through to the outside world. Although that would mean they need 1 antenna near the location that a cluster would be asserted on. So it would probably only work slightly against the small "chinese clusters". (edited)
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 8:49 AM
hip-40 can take care of those vice this hip which will punish the many for the actions of a few.
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The impact will probably be smaller than what we can simulate, since hotspot owners will adjust. Yes, that helps with the bi-directional goal. But I'm not sure if the extra effort is worth it at this moment. The network itself needs improvements and the "maybe implemented after light hotspots" isn't very reassuring, since 14% of the hotspots are not beaconing out of their control. (edited)
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Custom50ford 01/10/2022 8:51 AM
Yup. Seems kinda backwards to me too...just checked on the second (non relayed) miner mentioned (down from 200 -> 35 witnesses) - hasn't sent a beacon since Jan 5. No changes to the setup...Just sayin' (edited)
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Sloth
The impact will probably be smaller than what we can simulate, since hotspot owners will adjust. Yes, that helps with the bi-directional goal. But I'm not sure if the extra effort is worth it at this moment. The network itself needs improvements and the "maybe implemented after light hotspots" isn't very reassuring, since 14% of the hotspots are not beaconing out of their control. (edited)
+1. However, maybe the collateral damage to legit hotspots is greater than the impact to cheaters. If cheaters have been identified, why not to address the problem directly?
09:07
And HIP42 opens the door to further restrictions... Why not lowering the limits, even more? Maybe we are not affected right now, but in the future we could, if established limits change
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I'm not going to sugar coat it, there will be some "good" affected by any anti-gaming measures. As it sits there only a total of 0.024 HNT per day that could be "lost" from legit setups that brought up concerns with their current setups. It's the beast that's known as decentralization and trying to have rules established to prevent abuse.
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Awesome, thanks for putting this together (or atleast modifying the HIP-39 one) 🙂
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Anthonyra
Awesome, thanks for putting this together (or atleast modifying the HIP-39 one) 🙂
Yeah it was pretty easy. Changing a couple of addresses. 😂
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Anthonyra
I'm not going to sugar coat it, there will be some "good" affected by any anti-gaming measures. As it sits there only a total of 0.024 HNT per day that could be "lost" from legit setups that brought up concerns with their current setups. It's the beast that's known as decentralization and trying to have rules established to prevent abuse.
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 9:52 AM
Why not address those gaming in hip-40? Wouldn't that be an easier thing to do than coming up with another hip that will hurt legit setups? If these gamers are taken care of in hip-40, then those legit setups will not have to be affected by this.
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
Why not address those gaming in hip-40? Wouldn't that be an easier thing to do than coming up with another hip that will hurt legit setups? If these gamers are taken care of in hip-40, then those legit setups will not have to be affected by this.
HIP-40 isn't meant to blacklist specific hotspots unless they are really going to be detrimental to the network. Such as earning 3k-9k HNT per day like what happened in the Meerkat exploit.
09:54
Also, the goal is to create a system to protect itself and not a committee to blacklist "bad actors"
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In the ideal world HIP-40 wouldn't exist and HIPs like this one fulfil the gap. However, HIPs take time to implement.
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 9:57 AM
still not a good approach IMO. Those of us that take the time and extra money to provide good POC, shouldn't be capped as the network continues to grow which is the point of Helium
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ap
In the ideal world HIP-40 wouldn't exist and HIPs like this one fulfil the gap. However, HIPs take time to implement.
Also, based on how blockchain works and how the helium network is setup there's a compromise between potential issues with clipping and protecting against hotspots exploiting witness repeats
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
still not a good approach IMO. Those of us that take the time and extra money to provide good POC, shouldn't be capped as the network continues to grow which is the point of Helium
Please please come up with a better alternative.. or feel free to vote no and accept the network as it is today. If you personally believe that hotspots should get rewarded for simply hearing others beacons then that's perfectly fine. However, I do not like where the network is heading simply based on people are more incentivized to hear beacons rather then to beacon themselves. I also would like to prevent future exploits of witness repeats because previous attempts at it and likelihood of it returning in another form. But if they provide coverage based on beacons and witnesses then they can repeat all day in my opinion because coverage is being provided as needed.
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 10:08 AM
The validator deny list will take care of those gaming. I understand people are not ok with that. But I am sure that there are others that are ok with. I have voted no already. Why not have the hip changed to focus on those that are not beaconing and just witnessing? They get clipped in rewards, not put a hard cap on the amount of witnesses which will affect those providing good coverage and getting properly rewarded for it. Is that too hard of a thing to do? I honestly don't know.
10:11
I would imagine it wouldn't be to hard to get this data from the etl that those not beaconing and only witnessing are the ones that get clipped. There are those that through no fault of their own don't beacon. For example @Custom50ford . He has suffered from this a few times now. He would get clipped through no fault of his own as well. This I feel would be more wide spread than not from the amount of people i see in the other discord servers complaining they are not beaconing even though their setup is good.
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
The validator deny list will take care of those gaming. I understand people are not ok with that. But I am sure that there are others that are ok with. I have voted no already. Why not have the hip changed to focus on those that are not beaconing and just witnessing? They get clipped in rewards, not put a hard cap on the amount of witnesses which will affect those providing good coverage and getting properly rewarded for it. Is that too hard of a thing to do? I honestly don't know.
No, that's not the intention of that list. I'm a co-author on that HIP also. There isn't enough "man" power to do such a thing.... Also that's what this HIP is supposed to do. Did you know that if you removed the antenna on your hotspot your hotspot will report a beacon performed it just won't have any witnesses? You can try if you don't believe me... but that's an issue. The other concern is what requirements must be met to classify a beacon as being a succesful and trustworthy beacon? What if you had a small group of hotspots that were hardwired together (which is possible) so they only beacon to each other? Those beacons would look perfect and there'd just be a handful. But now if you repeat witnesses to that same group (unsigned witness packets) from hotspots that don't beacon. Now those 5 duplicate the one witness heard from that external hotspot.
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 10:12 AM
A guess a no win situation unless it is handled through hip-40
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Anthonyra
No, that's not the intention of that list. I'm a co-author on that HIP also. There isn't enough "man" power to do such a thing.... Also that's what this HIP is supposed to do. Did you know that if you removed the antenna on your hotspot your hotspot will report a beacon performed it just won't have any witnesses? You can try if you don't believe me... but that's an issue. The other concern is what requirements must be met to classify a beacon as being a succesful and trustworthy beacon? What if you had a small group of hotspots that were hardwired together (which is possible) so they only beacon to each other? Those beacons would look perfect and there'd just be a handful. But now if you repeat witnesses to that same group (unsigned witness packets) from hotspots that don't beacon. Now those 5 duplicate the one witness heard from that external hotspot.
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 10:14 AM
That could be done in a rural area. Own private network that just witness each other. You would need 11-12 miners for it to be sort of optimized.
10:14
and it would be 100 percent legit. No gaming
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
That could be done in a rural area. Own private network that just witness each other. You would need 11-12 miners for it to be sort of optimized.
But with HIP-42 they would only be able to claim 88-96 witnesses compared to the 2000 that clever smoke raven was pumping through 3 months ago
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 10:16 AM
still not right imo. If it is a legit setup, the owner shouldn't be punished
10:16
also those setups in the mountains that provide coverage, they would be clipped as well
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But if there was 11-12 miners in a rural area they would only be witnessing themselves. Which means that they would have a cap of 88 - 96 witnesses per day. Each one of their miners would need to be selected to beacon 8 times a day to get those number of witnesses. They wouldn't be affected (edited)
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 10:17 AM
They should be punished based on where they live?
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
They should be punished based on where they live?
They need to provide Proof of Coverage, I feel Proof of Coverage needs to also prove they beacon proportionate to the witnesses they receive. That's the reason I offered this HIP.
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 10:19 AM
I realize that as a member of this community, no matter what I say or how I vote, it really doesn't matter. Those with the fat wallets have the majority of power in the vote.
10:20
not really the people's network, when the size of your wallet has the influence
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
I realize that as a member of this community, no matter what I say or how I vote, it really doesn't matter. Those with the fat wallets have the majority of power in the vote.
Very true, I learned that on the last HIP voting when at the last minute the whales stepped in.
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CryptoIcE
Very true, I learned that on the last HIP voting when at the last minute the whales stepped in.
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 10:21 AM
exactly.
10:22
reminds me of lobbyists in congress, the more money they throw at a politician, the more likely that bill or law will go through, no matter what the people (constituents) want (edited)
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Anthonyra
But with HIP-42 they would only be able to claim 88-96 witnesses compared to the 2000 that clever smoke raven was pumping through 3 months ago
Custom50ford 01/10/2022 10:27 AM
The only clever smoke raven that shows in explorer is in a crazy populated area...not sure how that fit's the 11-12 scenario presented. Nonetheless I do think that miners that don't provide as much PoC should earn less, than those that provide more PoC. I just think this is an over simplification that's going to hurt a lot more people that it stops from gaming. <<Cheaters always gonna cheat>>
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Custom50ford
The only clever smoke raven that shows in explorer is in a crazy populated area...not sure how that fit's the 11-12 scenario presented. Nonetheless I do think that miners that don't provide as much PoC should earn less, than those that provide more PoC. I just think this is an over simplification that's going to hurt a lot more people that it stops from gaming. <<Cheaters always gonna cheat>>
When the exploit was being used back in September when this HIP was originally authored they had 0 witnesses and didn’t beacon but was being rewarded for over 2000 witnesses a day (edited)
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 10:33 AM
Off topic, but why is it the whales have the majority of power in voting when it is supposed to be the people's network
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Custom50ford 01/10/2022 10:34 AM
So, if they were on a cell tower in a densely populated area that might make sense. IDK...I can't say what others are doing, I just know that I've had more than one miner (off relay) go more than 5 days without sending a beacon while at the same time pushing 500 beacons witnessed. And, have another miner with a really good location that exceeds your theoretical max by a good margin with no gaming.
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
Off topic, but why is it the whales have the majority of power in voting when it is supposed to be the people's network
HIP-41 is also a HIP about this concerns.. #hip-41-governance-by-token-lock-v2
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Custom50ford 01/10/2022 10:35 AM
And if they are actually paying rent on a tower then they should be entitled to the benefits that come with it. But, again, I can't speak to that setup...other than it's flatlined rn
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Anthonyra
HIP-41 is also a HIP about this concerns.. #hip-41-governance-by-token-lock-v2
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 10:35 AM
ah, thank you. I will take a look at this.
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Custom50ford 01/10/2022 10:35 AM
me too. thx
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Custom50ford
So, if they were on a cell tower in a densely populated area that might make sense. IDK...I can't say what others are doing, I just know that I've had more than one miner (off relay) go more than 5 days without sending a beacon while at the same time pushing 500 beacons witnessed. And, have another miner with a really good location that exceeds your theoretical max by a good margin with no gaming.
The beacons on explorer is the sum of witnesses and beacons. I'm talking about witness receipts which is not shown on Explorer. The number 1 hotspot right now is only seeing 536 witness receipts daily, the suggested cap based on the current poc_challenge_interval is 576 (edited)
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Custom50ford 01/10/2022 10:37 AM
I am aware of what explorer is saying. I was trying to use the same terminology that you used. >>7 day beacons = # of beacons witnessed; Total Witnesses are how many see your beacons
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I'm also letting you know that there isn't a single hotspot on the network right now exceeding the proposed cap as long as they are also beaconing like expected (edited)
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Custom50ford 01/10/2022 10:38 AM
That's great for them, but as you mentioned above, most hotspots don't get anywhere close to 4/day - which is why you put in the mod
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Witness receipts is your hotspot hearing someone elses beacon. A witness is the hotspots that hear your beacon. This cap is proposed to cap the witness receipts based on your witness list. The #1 hotspot that hears the most beacons per day (witness receipts) isn't clipped by this proposed cap.
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Carl-bot BOT 01/10/2022 10:40 AM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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Hotspots are only clipped if they don't meet the expected 73% bi-directional nature that I'd expect based on current network status and LoRa itself.
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 10:43 AM
so 91.8% of my rewards are from witnessing one just one of my miners.
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Well, the HIP explains my stance on why the numbers were picked the way they were. Thank you both for taking the time to vote for the HIP and also taking the time to discuss here.
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 10:44 AM
95.55 on another one of my miners
10:45
and 90.33% on another. These are all legit setups. Built well with time and money invested to provide good coverage and thus be rewarded for it.
10:45
all would be affected from the 73% bi-directional
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Custom50ford 01/10/2022 10:48 AM
Yup! 7 Day Beacons stay at 350+ whereas Total Witnesses can be anywhere from 0-200...really need to fix PoC rather than further penalize the people who don't get challenged for days at a time. 'Nuff said.
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 10:53 AM
i'll look at the activity and the etl. Right off the bat that M sure is sus, I checked that earlier, low earnings. lol
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This is concerning. Why punish optimal set-ups that people have invested lots of time, money, effort into just because they can witness a lot of hotspots?
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Custom50ford 01/10/2022 10:53 AM
at first blush - no. But they might have the stock antenna on a tower. IDK. But I do know that the parameters you put out are gonna clip folks with legit setups, and cheaters are always going to find a way to cheat
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 10:55 AM
curious, if that setup is deemed not legit, why is it his other miner isn't doing the same?
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Anthonyra
I have two different kinds of tools that utilize the DeWi ETL to caculate the effects per hotspot. You need to login with a gmail.com email to us it. https://etl.dewi.org/question/461-poc-witness-scaling-hip-42 (using public address of hotspot) or https://etl.dewi.org/question/624-poc-witness-scaling-by-name-hip-42 (using the name-name-name of the hotspot)
When trying to run this report against one hotspot, i get "No results" (https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11xEqg5kDdvomLWBsoBY9MNKCRoCSFZ6wzwQogYRPKNeadwzUZe)
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 10:57 AM
Curious on that setup, I wish I knew exactly where it is at. Has to be up on a tower, fayettenam has a ton of trees in that area.
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Graham
When trying to run this report against one hotspot, i get "No results" (https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11xEqg5kDdvomLWBsoBY9MNKCRoCSFZ6wzwQogYRPKNeadwzUZe)
If the wits list is 0, it can return that based on the sql query. For the fact it has 0 wits list it'd be clipped by this. Since it's not beaconing... and it's not reachable on the p2p network..
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Anthonyra
If the wits list is 0, it can return that based on the sql query. For the fact it has 0 wits list it'd be clipped by this. Since it's not beaconing... and it's not reachable on the p2p network..
Would it be affected by HIP-42?
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Graham
Would it be affected by HIP-42?
Yes, it looks like an issue with local network. The listen_address on the blockchain is returning a timeout response. Which means the network can't reach it to request it to beacon. (edited)
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
Curious on that setup, I wish I knew exactly where it is at. Has to be up on a tower, fayettenam has a ton of trees in that area.
Custom50ford 01/10/2022 11:03 AM
or up a tree...seen some of those pics recently
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Custom50ford
or up a tree...seen some of those pics recently
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 11:04 AM
yeah, nothing stands out to me on earth pro showing a high tower
11:07
the wallet for that setup has another hotspot on it, why only game halfass? That doesn't make sense. If you are going to game and get paid, why not do it for all your setups to maximize the rewards before you get clipped?
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Custom50ford 01/10/2022 11:09 AM
lol! @BigPimp it's a decoy to throw you off
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I just read the HIP, does anyone know what 'wiggle room' they speak of when they say relayed miners will be impacted or not? What if your ISP limits this at some deployments? That is completely out of a miners control
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Not completely. They could buy a VPN, change ISP (edited)
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Lol buy another device
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'lol' yes, they are responsible for their own setup
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Not sure punishing people till they spend more money to go above and beyond w a VPN/extra ras pi is the right move. This HIP could just wait till light hotspots come out and the relay issue is no longer a problem.
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Relays should have been punished a long time ago, but that's another discussion 😉
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Fair enough
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cat_tax
I just read the HIP, does anyone know what 'wiggle room' they speak of when they say relayed miners will be impacted or not? What if your ISP limits this at some deployments? That is completely out of a miners control
Custom50ford 01/10/2022 11:15 AM
But this punishes even those who are not relayed, as above
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Right, with the whole witnessing rewards limit... Not too keen on this HIP
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PirateRadio_Helium🎈 01/10/2022 11:19 AM
Yea I voted against it, I believe they can do somthing else that wont hurt us regular folk
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could a possible alternative to this be simply rewarding beaconing more than the current 5% of rewards? I like the idea of a ratio personally, but if you are going to limit witnessing based on beaconing, that would suggest beacons may have more value than currently allocated. Thoughts?
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Radrob
could a possible alternative to this be simply rewarding beaconing more than the current 5% of rewards? I like the idea of a ratio personally, but if you are going to limit witnessing based on beaconing, that would suggest beacons may have more value than currently allocated. Thoughts?
That is an alternative, simply re-adjusting the reward buckets associated to beacons or witnesses. It removes the buffer created by doing a 5 day rolling average but it would be indeed a solution to incentivize the rebalance of beacons to witnesses. It doesn't however prevent or limit the chance or witness repeaters. I'd be game to rebalance to rewards to meet the suggest beacon to witness ratio concerns. But then there'd need to be a separate mechanism for witness repeaters.
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Anthonyra
That is an alternative, simply re-adjusting the reward buckets associated to beacons or witnesses. It removes the buffer created by doing a 5 day rolling average but it would be indeed a solution to incentivize the rebalance of beacons to witnesses. It doesn't however prevent or limit the chance or witness repeaters. I'd be game to rebalance to rewards to meet the suggest beacon to witness ratio concerns. But then there'd need to be a separate mechanism for witness repeaters.
agreed. The ability to use this to combat major witness repeaters is nice. I'll think on this some more. Great HIP though. Really well thought out.
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Radrob
agreed. The ability to use this to combat major witness repeaters is nice. I'll think on this some more. Great HIP though. Really well thought out.
davidzc "the Gentleman" 01/10/2022 11:33 AM
there is some issue though . people will be trying to send out more than regulatory TX
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and will get invalid due to signal too strong
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PirateRadio_Helium🎈
Yea I voted against it, I believe they can do somthing else that wont hurt us regular folk
newb question... where can i vote?
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davidzc "the Gentleman"
there is some issue though . people will be trying to send out more than regulatory TX
hotstpots are challenged to beacon at random, you can't beacon at will
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cat_tax
newb question... where can i vote?
helium.vote (edited)
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Radrob
hotstpots are challenged to beacon at random, you can't beacon at will
ah misread that. The tx is controlled already through pocv11
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Radrob
hotstpots are challenged to beacon at random, you can't beacon at will
He probably means at higher TX power. If they are that smart to be able to do it, then they can sure work around this HIP as well. You really need to work hard to get above the threshold and everyone will see that you stand out the crowd. So then you just divide the forwarded beacons over multiple hotspots(by the time this hip is released we expect cheaper light hotspots). You're never going to stop the diehard gamers. 🙂 I'm also not sure how many you will get in a real life scenario and if that makes it worth the effort(due to risk of extra load on validators for example). (edited)
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Sloth
helium.vote (edited)
i need to send HNT from my Helium app correct to vote, correct?
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you need to burn
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another noob question, when it says a vote is just a Temp Check, does that mean its vote results are official?
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it's a check if the community is up for the HIP
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cat_tax
another noob question, when it says a vote is just a Temp Check, does that mean its vote results are official?
yes carry on vote no
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voted no, still time left, but hopefully more people vote.... Votes for : 208,295.05 HNT (334 Votes) 63.91% vs. Votes against: 117,603.85 HNT (242 Votes) 36.09%
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Radrob
could a possible alternative to this be simply rewarding beaconing more than the current 5% of rewards? I like the idea of a ratio personally, but if you are going to limit witnessing based on beaconing, that would suggest beacons may have more value than currently allocated. Thoughts?
exactly, why put the witness rewards at 20.02% vs PoC at 5.02%?
12:03
20.08*
12:04
make the rewards commensurate with the value they add to the network.
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cat_tax
exactly, why put the witness rewards at 20.02% vs PoC at 5.02%?
I can understand why in the beginning it was this way since 90+% of Lorawan traffic is uplinks and not downlinks and PoC is meant to simulate lorawan, but yea that 20% is so heavy that it leads to people simply not caring about beaconing sometimes.
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seriously... if witnessing is literally 1/5 the rewards bucket, then it is signaling to hotspot owners to adapt to this incentive model.
12:08
want less duplicate witnessing rewards, lower the rewards amount for witnesses and balance it with PoC... then let the network operators sort out if they think it is still profitable or change their set-up
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cat_tax
want less duplicate witnessing rewards, lower the rewards amount for witnesses and balance it with PoC... then let the network operators sort out if they think it is still profitable or change their set-up
It will clip those who are affected by the network instability more for what it's worth. When writing the HIP I was just going to suggest a rewards rebalance too solve the inbalance but it would be more aggressive to the entire network. For example, 14% of the entire network isn't beaconing daily. There'd just need to be a separate mechanism to combat witness repeaters again (edited)
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Why is there no announcement about the vote
12:11
Should be blasted everywhere
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Anthonyra
It will clip those who are affected by the network instability more for what it's worth. When writing the HIP I was just going to suggest a rewards rebalance too solve the inbalance but it would be more aggressive to the entire network. For example, 14% of the entire network isn't beaconing daily. There'd just need to be a separate mechanism to combat witness repeaters again (edited)
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 12:12 PM
and that is likely not the owners fault. I used to beacon 5 times a day regularly a few months ago. Now it is 1-2 a day. Sometimes none. I have zero control over that
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People I asked don't even know about HIP42 or there's a vote
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
and that is likely not the owners fault. I used to beacon 5 times a day regularly a few months ago. Now it is 1-2 a day. Sometimes none. I have zero control over that
True but if the reward buckets get rebalanced, you'd get zero for all of them days.. this was the compromise I landed on.. now it's up to the community if they agree
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found out about it on Reddit
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I found out about the vote because of fking bobcat announced the tweet from DeWi of all places
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Mr_Fizzer
I found out about the vote because of fking bobcat announced the tweet from DeWi of all places
I saw about it in a mining community
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DeWi is the one who host these votes by the way
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Anthonyra
True but if the reward buckets get rebalanced, you'd get zero for all of them days.. this was the compromise I landed on.. now it's up to the community if they agree
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 12:14 PM
I like the idea of killing this HIP till light hotspots hit. That will solve so many issues (hopefully)
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Why wasn't it announced on the regular announcement channel
12:14
No one reads the dewi channel
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 12:14 PM
redom was blasted everywhere
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
redom was blasted everywhere
Everywhere but the general announcement?
12:15
Do you know how fast a message gets buried
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
I like the idea of killing this HIP till light hotspots hit. That will solve so many issues (hopefully)
this, I would need to take on more expenses and monthly overhead for VPNs just to have it all be worthless when the light hotspots come out... that would be a pretty silly thing to do
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Anthonyra
DeWi is the one who host these votes by the way
Could you explain this hip in a short way. Find the whole github reading hateful
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Mr_Fizzer
Everywhere but the general announcement?
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 12:17 PM
in general, like when the blockchain halted a couple times, people generally don't read announcements. I get it, it is hard to get people's attention, a notification in the app would help as would emails and of course putting in annoucements. The little smol turtle could also post it once an hour in gen pop as well.
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Ghost
Could you explain this hip in a short way. Find the whole github reading hateful
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 12:18 PM
it would take the same level of comprehension as here as it does there.
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
in general, like when the blockchain halted a couple times, people generally don't read announcements. I get it, it is hard to get people's attention, a notification in the app would help as would emails and of course putting in annoucements. The little smol turtle could also post it once an hour in gen pop as well.
I just find it super weird I had to find out about this through bobcat server
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Mr_Fizzer
I just find it super weird I had to find out about this through bobcat server
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 12:18 PM
i found out about it in the offgrid channel (edited)
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
i found out about it in the offgrid channel (edited)
We need louder voices to inform people correctly... otherwise you get a game of microphone, like with Poc11
12:20
To this day, there are still people think poc11 was suppose to ban spooders
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Mr_Fizzer
To this day, there are still people think poc11 was suppose to ban spooders
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 12:21 PM
people just fail to take the time to read or even comprehend what they are reading. You can lead a horse to water.....
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
people just fail to take the time to read or even comprehend what they are reading. You can lead a horse to water.....
Maybe whoever wrote the hip could dumb it down, instead of random person who got a tldr from someone else who got a tldr
12:23
Most people don't like to read tech documents
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Anthonyra
That is an alternative, simply re-adjusting the reward buckets associated to beacons or witnesses. It removes the buffer created by doing a 5 day rolling average but it would be indeed a solution to incentivize the rebalance of beacons to witnesses. It doesn't however prevent or limit the chance or witness repeaters. I'd be game to rebalance to rewards to meet the suggest beacon to witness ratio concerns. But then there'd need to be a separate mechanism for witness repeaters.
sorry, but what are witness repeaters?
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But for this vote, there at least should be an announcement on the regular announcement channel so people get a ping
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timdmd
sorry, but what are witness repeaters?
i'm guessing folks with multiple miners close to each other in areas where they can witness a lot of hotspots
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 12:25 PM
@ap @Radrob can we get an announcement for this live hip vote in #announcements ? (edited)
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Some people already started to freaking out over this on reddit, cause they think it's a real vote (edited)
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Mr_Fizzer
Some people already started to freaking out over this on reddit, cause they think it's a real vote (edited)
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 12:26 PM
it ain't, yet......
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I think this hip-42 is good for the long term of the network and for most of us (the regular hotspots). What i see here in europe is that more and more hotspots are placed in high communication towers, wind turbines etc. They capture all the witnesses of "the regular people" and it won't be "the peoples network" anymore. What do you think about that?
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Mr_Fizzer
Some people already started to freaking out over this on reddit, cause they think it's a real vote (edited)
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timdmd
sorry, but what are witness repeaters?
Beacons are packets sent from the beaconer. A witness picks up those packets and the packet forwarder decodes them to simple json. This json is then sent from the packet forwarder to the helium mining software where the miner signs that it received this beacon packet turning it into a witness receipt. In that process there's a point where that beacon packet is simply a decoded json file. This file could then be intercepted via Man In The Middle software and forwarded to multiple hotspots to be then signed as a witness receipt. The act of doing this via hardware or software is considered a witness repeater.
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
@ap @Radrob can we get an announcement for this live hip vote in #announcements ? (edited)
Its already in #foundation-announcements is probably what'll get. I can ask though.
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ap
Its already in #foundation-announcements is probably what'll get. I can ask though.
I literally never clicked on that channel in the 10 months I've been on this server
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ap
Its already in #foundation-announcements is probably what'll get. I can ask though.
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 12:28 PM
it is not getting much traction. gen pop announcements would get some more looks
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GPE
I think this hip-42 is good for the long term of the network and for most of us (the regular hotspots). What i see here in europe is that more and more hotspots are placed in high communication towers, wind turbines etc. They capture all the witnesses of "the regular people" and it won't be "the peoples network" anymore. What do you think about that?
real people put time, effort, money into making their hotspots 'ideal'... and that includes putting them in optimal locations, like mountains or cell towers... what makes that any less of a peoples network? why punish them for going above and beyond to add value to the network?
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 12:28 PM
please ask, it won't hurt anything
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Mr_Fizzer
I literally never clicked on that channel in the 10 months I've been on this server
Well you should. 🥲
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
please ask, it won't hurt anything
I'll ask.
gucci 1
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ap
I'll ask.
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 12:29 PM
Thank you
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nothing is stopping anyone from approaching a cell tower owner and asking to get their hotspot put there
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cat_tax
nothing is stopping anyone from approaching a cell tower owner and asking to get their hotspot put there
That requires more work
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Anthonyra
Beacons are packets sent from the beaconer. A witness picks up those packets and the packet forwarder decodes them to simple json. This json is then sent from the packet forwarder to the helium mining software where the miner signs that it received this beacon packet turning it into a witness receipt. In that process there's a point where that beacon packet is simply a decoded json file. This file could then be intercepted via Man In The Middle software and forwarded to multiple hotspots to be then signed as a witness receipt. The act of doing this via hardware or software is considered a witness repeater.
thank you for your explanation!
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and a lot of people can barely hook up antennas together
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and that is the fault of the person trying to add the most value?
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cat_tax
and that is the fault of the person trying to add the most value?
No
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things are relative in life... provide better coverage and get rewarded better for it
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Not disagreeing with you here
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Anthonyra
Beacons are packets sent from the beaconer. A witness picks up those packets and the packet forwarder decodes them to simple json. This json is then sent from the packet forwarder to the helium mining software where the miner signs that it received this beacon packet turning it into a witness receipt. In that process there's a point where that beacon packet is simply a decoded json file. This file could then be intercepted via Man In The Middle software and forwarded to multiple hotspots to be then signed as a witness receipt. The act of doing this via hardware or software is considered a witness repeater.
that's good to know. How can you tell if someone is a witness repeater if its done w/ software?
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For a non relayed hotspot which consistently beacons an average of twice a day (720 blocks), what would the witness cap be? (edited)
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cat_tax
that's good to know. How can you tell if someone is a witness repeater if its done w/ software?
Abnormally high witness receipts counts compared to beacons is the most obvious since they could have 0 beacons and still claim 2000 witness receipts per day which is about 20 HNT/day
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that makes sense
12:38
so just analyzing their hotspot activity
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Yea, this HIP is intending to implement such a detection on chain... but it's hard to know good from bad if an "optimal" hotspot isn't defined in regards to PoC (edited)
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then they reverse forward poc beacons and their problem is solved.
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Anthonyra
Yea, this HIP is intending to implement such a detection on chain... but it's hard to know good from bad if an "optimal" hotspot isn't defined in regards to PoC (edited)
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 12:39 PM
wouldn't percentage be much higher then the 73% proposed?
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Sloth
then they reverse forward poc beacons and their problem is solved.
Beacons are pre-signed from challengers and delivered to the target who is the only one that can decode it...
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 12:40 PM
if 0 beacons but 2k witnesses?
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The proposal is a suggestion an "optimal" setup in regards to beacons to witness receipts should be 73% (edited)
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Anthonyra
Beacons are pre-signed from challengers and delivered to the target who is the only one that can decode it...
yes, but the hotspots that get RX beacons forwarded to them can still TX their beacons over that one antenna of the packet forwarder and since you don't have to transmit that many packets, it's not a big deal (edited)
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 12:41 PM
that's optimal? 73%? I gave you optimal setup and it way higher than 73%, plus the limit of beacons that are being sent out daily now.
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Sloth
yes, but the hotspots that get RX beacons forwarded to them can still TX their beacons over that one antenna of the packet forwarder and since you don't have to transmit that many packets, it's not a big deal (edited)
This doesn't stop the witness repeater, it simply limits how much they can leverage it. They also need to beacon to increase this cap. Which beaconing is harder in these setups
12:42
#hip-22-diy-concentrators is a step closer to completely preventing witness repeaters but via hardware security
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 12:43 PM
So my setups are exceptional then, thus those like me will be clipped by this. This will further disincentive us to better our setups to get the rewards for doing so
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It will probably stop a few specific cases, but when someone has a high rooftop in the middle of a city, you're not going to stop him, might limit very slightly
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Exceptional in my eyes is that you have 360 unique witnesses and you get 1440 witness receipts per day.. but that would require 100% bi-directional signals (edited)
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 12:44 PM
all of my miners are in the 90 percentile.
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
all of my miners are in the 90 percentile.
Based on rewards?
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 12:45 PM
based on what hotspotty is telling me on my witnesses vs beaconing vs data
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I think my hotspot will be capped based on it's unique location. But can't test it right now due to the 0 beaconing affair. I do think it's a good step forward, just concerned about timing. (edited)
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
based on what hotspotty is telling me on my witnesses vs beaconing vs data
I don't work for hotspotty and I'm not sure what they use to calculate that. But the raw data doesn't support in the eyes of PoC exceptional setups...
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 12:46 PM
also based on the number of beacons and witnesses on what explorer is telling me.
12:46
Also being in the top 5 of earners in my area.
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GPE
I think this hip-42 is good for the long term of the network and for most of us (the regular hotspots). What i see here in europe is that more and more hotspots are placed in high communication towers, wind turbines etc. They capture all the witnesses of "the regular people" and it won't be "the peoples network" anymore. What do you think about that?
but if you could you would also go on towers, because you can't you are not happy about the others, nice one
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If the tool for HIP-42 says you're going to be affected then your hotspot hears better then it beacons which is an imbalance for PoC
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Or, you know, a network fuckup
12:48
Such as the we've been debugging here https://github.com/helium/miner/issues/1339 for 2 weeks now, without a single response from the devs (edited)
Since the Dec 29th update a growing group of users is reporting a significant reward drop of &gt;80% from one day to the other. Hotspots that normally witness beacons several times per hour. No...
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Anthonyra
If the tool for HIP-42 says you're going to be affected then your hotspot hears better then it beacons which is an imbalance for PoC
What is the tool for hip 42?? Don't the vast majority of hotspots witness better than they beacon?
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Almost no beacons and if a hotspot gets a beacon to send, it gets witnessed by 0-2 people at most
12:51
In the middle of a city with 6k+ hotspots
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WarGawd
What is the tool for hip 42?? Don't the vast majority of hotspots witness better than they beacon?
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 12:52 PM
yep, but 73% is considered an optimal setup, but just based on my miners and a buddy's miner, we are way above 73%.
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*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
yep, but 73% is considered an optimal setup, but just based on my miners and a buddy's miner, we are way above 73%.
No disrespect but I was looking for Anthonyra's reply there
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WarGawd
No disrespect but I was looking for Anthonyra's reply there
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 12:54 PM
all good, tag him!
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yes i would like to see this HIP 42 tool as well
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I think this is the tool @Anthonyra is referring to: https://etl.dewi.org/question/461-poc-witness-scaling-hip-42
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FezzFest
I think this is the tool @Anthonyra is referring to: https://etl.dewi.org/question/461-poc-witness-scaling-hip-42
Tyvm
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does Metabase not play nice with Firefox? when i go to sign in w/ Google it lets me chose an account then just reloops me back to the sign in w. google screen again
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cat_tax
does Metabase not play nice with Firefox? when i go to sign in w/ Google it lets me chose an account then just reloops me back to the sign in w. google screen again
There's a limitation where the email used needs to be a gmail.com one and not a google workspace email (edited)
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so i just input my miner address correct?
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cat_tax
so i just input my miner address correct?
Yes the p2p address
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cat_tax
so i just input my miner address correct?
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 01/10/2022 1:03 PM
hit the play button in the middle of the screen, when I just hit enter after inputting the address, didn't work. idk, maybe that was just me
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thanks
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cat_tax
so i just input my miner address correct?
Noel - that guy 01/10/2022 1:12 PM
Click on the clipboard icon to the right of the address which is to the right of the @ symbol on explorer.helium.com and it will copy your miner address. Paste that into the tool and hit play.
13:15
I'd post what the response should look like, but apparently no authorized to post pics in here
13:16
I get a witness list count of 12; Witness receipts of 42; 5 day receipt limits of 96; Witness limit cap of 18; and a False on "Affected by HIP 42"
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Carl-bot BOT 01/10/2022 1:16 PM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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Noel - that guy 01/10/2022 1:27 PM
I am in a rural area and it is not affecting me. Right now they appear to focusing on expansion and not redundancy. Seems like a lot of people with complaints are in areas that are redundant, as in there is already coverage. Growth of the network is more important at this point to provide coverage and bring services on board to make money. At least more important than it is to have hotspot owners just having multiple miners in the same Hex doing the equivalent of shouting "I'm still here!" back and forth. (edited)
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Noel - that guy
Click on the clipboard icon to the right of the address which is to the right of the @ symbol on explorer.helium.com and it will copy your miner address. Paste that into the tool and hit play.
I see only a red x where i must write the Hotspots adress?
13:37
Unfortunatly i cant post a screenshoot
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Noel - that guy 01/10/2022 1:37 PM
Are you using explorer.helium.com?
13:37
what is your hotspot name?
13:38
Or DM me if you want
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Noel - that guy
I am in a rural area and it is not affecting me. Right now they appear to focusing on expansion and not redundancy. Seems like a lot of people with complaints are in areas that are redundant, as in there is already coverage. Growth of the network is more important at this point to provide coverage and bring services on board to make money. At least more important than it is to have hotspot owners just having multiple miners in the same Hex doing the equivalent of shouting "I'm still here!" back and forth. (edited)
I would agree with this assessment of those who are against this HIP. Also thank you for helping it's greatly appreciated 🙂
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Anthonyra
I would agree with this assessment of those who are against this HIP. Also thank you for helping it's greatly appreciated 🙂
Noel - that guy 01/10/2022 1:39 PM
This is one of the only HIPs that I can say that actually understand and agree with the logic behind it. It is definitely a step in the right direction.
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giron
I see only a red x where i must write the Hotspots adress?
Noel - that guy 01/10/2022 1:41 PM
Giron you can DM me if you'd like me to help you with the HIP42 tool
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giron
I see only a red x where i must write the Hotspots adress?
I'm having the same experience, but I'm on mobile and at work, will play at home..or someone could post results for Sour Olive Moth Soft Taffy Monkey Dapper Brunette Seal
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Noel - that guy 01/10/2022 1:42 PM
Try using the other tool for doing it by name
13:43
Make sure to use the dash "-" between each name
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I tryed booth
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Noel - that guy 01/10/2022 1:43 PM
with the dashes?
13:45
@WarGawd It shows False for being affected on all three of those locations.
13:45
@Anthonyra I assume "false" means no change to current earnings, correct?
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OK thx
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Noel - that guy
Try using the other tool for doing it by name
Where do I input the hotspot name with dashes?
13:45
In the search bar? (edited)
13:46
there are 2 different tools
13:46
the search bar should show "name-name-name"
13:47
If it shows as "address" you need to find your address in the Explorer and use it (edited)
13:47
See the first PINNED POST on this channel for the addresses
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Noel - that guy 01/10/2022 1:48 PM
What is your hotspot name?
13:50
Pulled up for me. Are you putting it in all lowercase as acidic-pickle-chameleon and then clicking the the play button in middle of the screen?
13:51
BTW, result shows as False for Affected by HIP42
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Noel - that guy
Pulled up for me. Are you putting it in all lowercase as acidic-pickle-chameleon and then clicking the the play button in middle of the screen?
I think both of us have the same problem that we can't get rid of the red X in the center to find a play button
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Noel - that guy 01/10/2022 1:51 PM
What browser?
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Cannot run the query: missing required parameters: #{"name"}
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Noel - that guy 01/10/2022 1:51 PM
I use chrome
13:52
ah
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giron
Cannot run the query: missing required parameters: #{"name"}
Yes
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Noel - that guy 01/10/2022 1:52 PM
Enter the name and then hit ENTER
13:52
then click the play button
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Noel - that guy
I use chrome
I'm using Chrome as well on mobile
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Noel - that guy 01/10/2022 1:52 PM
trying on my mobile now
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I did however make the mistake of capitalizing the 1st letter when I attempted it by name, will retry
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Noel - that guy 01/10/2022 1:54 PM
Ok on Chrome for mobile, turn your phone sideways or you may not see the real search box
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My witness limit cap is 260, is this bad?
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if you are using amp vote no if you aren't vote yes .
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Noel - that guy
Ok on Chrome for mobile, turn your phone sideways or you may not see the real search box
Bingo!!! Never suspected lol
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Noel - that guy 01/10/2022 1:56 PM
I know that sound stupid, but my phone was showing the "Search" function of the page and not the function
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Currently have 1031 witness receipts and 163 witness
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eoin9876
My witness limit cap is 260, is this bad?
Noel - that guy 01/10/2022 1:57 PM
Still learning myself. I would tag @Anthonyra if you have a specific question or visit the pinned messages as it may have already been answered.
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eoin9876
Currently have 1031 witness receipts and 163 witness
You average 206 witness receipts per day so you're able to witness 54 more receipts before you are affected by this HIP
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@Anthonyra Just so I understand, if I have a miner that is not relayed and witness normally but stopped Beaconing since 14th Dec, this means witness list will be zero and witness cap will be calculated as 0. So my miner will no longer get rewarded post hip42? Will there be any info for troubleshooting on the explorer in the future.. as currently I'm not sure why my miner is not beaconing...
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Carl-bot BOT 01/10/2022 1:58 PM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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Noel - that guy 01/10/2022 2:00 PM
@Lee out of curiosity, what manufacturer?
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Noel - that guy
@Lee out of curiosity, what manufacturer?
Sensecap
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Lee
@Anthonyra Just so I understand, if I have a miner that is not relayed and witness normally but stopped Beaconing since 14th Dec, this means witness list will be zero and witness cap will be calculated as 0. So my miner will no longer get rewarded post hip42? Will there be any info for troubleshooting on the explorer in the future.. as currently I'm not sure why my miner is not beaconing...
Well, in the HIP there is a piece talking about edge cases like that. There's two options given, where the hotspot will perform ether a) a test beacon to populate a wits list or default to a minimum of 24 witness receipts per day...
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Anthonyra
Well, in the HIP there is a piece talking about edge cases like that. There's two options given, where the hotspot will perform ether a) a test beacon to populate a wits list or default to a minimum of 24 witness receipts per day...
Ahh okay, so that would mean I would still be able to mine hnt like now. (edited)
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I personally like the test beacon because you could have a full wits list populated during those times
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Anthonyra
I personally like the test beacon because you could have a full wits list populated during those times
Or just bring back discovery mode no?
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Noel - that guy 01/10/2022 2:03 PM
I think Discovery mode is gone for good. I get the feeling it was being abused to game part of the system
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WarGawd
Or just bring back discovery mode no?
Actually I'm talking about something they took away with HIP 15 and doesn't use the internet (well it uses internet but not via an app) or state channels to work. But similar to discovery mode (edited)
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Noel - that guy 01/10/2022 2:04 PM
So, it won't reward people as a data transfer packet?
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So one of my sensecaps have 122 on the 7d avg beacons, but 0 on total witnesses because it did it last Beacon 14th December.
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Lee
So one of my sensecaps have 122 on the 7d avg beacons, but 0 on total witnesses because it did it last Beacon 14th December.
That last beacon is concerning... also this test beacon wouldn't be rewarded via PoC
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Let's assume hip42 were implemented tomorrow. My miner who didn't Beacon since mid of Dec won't Beacon for another month or whatever. Would I be rewarded 0 hnt till my first real Beacon or would I be unaffected and be rewarded like I did pre hip42 (edited)
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Anthonyra
That last beacon is concerning... also this test beacon wouldn't be rewarded via PoC
Contacted sensecap support and host cannot restart it for another week or two. (been gone for winter break)
14:11
I like the hip, just think there should be some information on the explorer (like relayed info) to enlighten miners as to why their hnt mining stopped (if their miner stopped beaconing) (edited)
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Noel - that guy 01/10/2022 2:11 PM
I really don't understand the issue some of the whales have if they are truly interested in expanding the network. It seems to me that this would make the "set it and forget it" folks start looking at getting rid of their hotspots. That would mean less density in over-saturated areas and less scaling of rewards. They could then pick-up used hotspots on the secondary market or light hotspots when they come out and expand the network into underserved areas. This in turn would increase ability of Helium team to sell it as a reliable IoT infrastructure network increasing the ability to earn DC for usage by other vendors, and increase the price of HNT. It truly would be a win-win for most serious Helium hotspot owners.
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Lee
I like the hip, just think there should be some information on the explorer (like relayed info) to enlighten miners as to why their hnt mining stopped (if their miner stopped beaconing) (edited)
Noel - that guy 01/10/2022 2:12 PM
That would most likely fall to the manufacturer
14:13
For example, Heltec is aware that they have an issue with receive sensitivity and are actively trying to address it. I applaud their efforts, but they knew it was going to be an issue and appear to have ignored it. Tools like this might have weeded it out much sooner. (edited)
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Noel - that guy
Ok on Chrome for mobile, turn your phone sideways or you may not see the real search box
Yes this was the problem.
14:14
And where i see now if im affected?
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Noel - that guy 01/10/2022 2:16 PM
Everyone, please read the HIP. It is roughly 4 written pages and should take a few minutes. I'm heading there now!
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Ruko | Miners.Farm 01/10/2022 3:37 PM
I would like this voting to not be based on the actual vote value (HNT value) but the actual voters (1 vote per main account or 1 vote per hotspot.) Since most Gamers will have the most HNT, we small folks will have a hard time to beat them on the voting system when using HNT value. (edited)
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If this goes through it will put a lot of miners out of the game.
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icechris
If this goes through it will put a lot of miners out of the game.
matmanmining 01/10/2022 3:45 PM
How so? One of the best setups in my area, up on a tower great LOS, etc. Will be unaffected. All of my legitimate hotspots will be unaffected. What are the miners you referring to doing that would put them out of the game? (edited)
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matmanmining
How so? One of the best setups in my area, up on a tower great LOS, etc. Will be unaffected. All of my legitimate hotspots will be unaffected. What are the miners you referring to doing that would put them out of the game? (edited)
All of the relayed miners
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This guy is sitting on top of a 280m TV tower in Hamburg, Germany. It looks like he would be affected. Arguably one of the best setups you can have though, and probably not cheap. https://etl.dewi.org/question/624-poc-witness-scaling-by-name-hip-42?name=sharp-quartz-wren
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If you are witnessing relayed miners then you don’t get rewards
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icechris
If you are witnessing relayed miners then you don’t get rewards
matmanmining 01/10/2022 3:50 PM
Not true (at least for one of my relayed hotspots). Check the link https://etl.dewi.org/question/624-poc-witness-scaling-by-name-hip-42
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I’m saying If this passes that will be the effect (edited)
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icechris
I’m saying If this passes that will be the effect (edited)
matmanmining 01/10/2022 3:52 PM
Can you explain how that scenario works in the context of HIP42? I don't quite understand.
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7obi
This guy is sitting on top of a 280m TV tower in Hamburg, Germany. It looks like he would be affected. Arguably one of the best setups you can have though, and probably not cheap. https://etl.dewi.org/question/624-poc-witness-scaling-by-name-hip-42?name=sharp-quartz-wren
matmanmining 01/10/2022 3:54 PM
I think that warrants some consideration as to why that situation is working out that way. Do you have any ideas?
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matmanmining
I think that warrants some consideration as to why that situation is working out that way. Do you have any ideas?
What do you mean?
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matmanmining
Can you explain how that scenario works in the context of HIP42? I don't quite understand.
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7obi
What do you mean?
matmanmining 01/10/2022 3:57 PM
Do you have any ideas on what might be happening in that situation that causes the witness receipts/beacon ratio to work out in a way that penalizes the hotspot? For example, this miner is doing great, nice tower etc, and is not penalized. Rough Chili Bird.
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matmanmining
Do you have any ideas on what might be happening in that situation that causes the witness receipts/beacon ratio to work out in a way that penalizes the hotspot? For example, this miner is doing great, nice tower etc, and is not penalized. Rough Chili Bird.
Oh I see. No I don't know why that would happen. He can clearly hear a lot more than others can hear him I assume. Don't see why, unless there's an imbalance in the system with regard to Beaconing vs being picked as a valid Witness. But it doesn't look at all like a setup that deserves to be penalized. (edited)
16:01
The two have the same number of Witnesses, but Wren has witnessed 1000 more than Bird.
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7obi
Oh I see. No I don't know why that would happen. He can clearly hear a lot more than others can hear him I assume. Don't see why, unless there's an imbalance in the system with regard to Beaconing vs being picked as a valid Witness. But it doesn't look at all like a setup that deserves to be penalized. (edited)
matmanmining 01/10/2022 4:03 PM
Yes, agreed, but there is some gaming going on (not with the case we are discussing), that involves repeaters that are able to send witnesses to a hotspot, that were not actually received directly by the hotspot. In effect, it seems that the HIP is intended to balance both the sending and receiving of a hotspot to insure the hotspot is not only (mostly) taking in witness receipts. At least that Is the way I understand it now. I still have a lot to learn. (edited)
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Gotcha. Well in that case I'm all for it, but how sure are we that this guy is gaming the system?! Definitely needs a bit more research. My Hotspots seem unaffected by this but just trying to understand what it actually does.
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7obi
Gotcha. Well in that case I'm all for it, but how sure are we that this guy is gaming the system?! Definitely needs a bit more research. My Hotspots seem unaffected by this but just trying to understand what it actually does.
matmanmining 01/10/2022 4:05 PM
Same.....It would be interesting if someone could pull a list of affected hotspots
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YouTube guy above seems to be on a mission to game the system though, every video I have seen from him he is trying some tricks or amplifiers or two spots on one antenna. lol Not sure if that's bad as long as he provides coverage but how come he never beacons and gets heard?!
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hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦 01/10/2022 4:13 PM
We need to do away with the misconception that this network is built to offer a fair and equitable opportunity to mine HNT. The notion that relayed hotspots would be negatively impacted should have zero bering on this as relayed HS have always been a blight on the network. The purpose is to build a network (via proof of coverage) that services the sensor market. If an owner can not provide the necessary requirements due to technical limitations of their ISP or the owners skills, then they need to be replaced with someone that can. I know this sounds harsh, but it's not hard to solve relayed. Does it require an upfront cost and ongoing expense, yes, just like buying and setting up a hotspot. Let's keep this focused on solving the exploits and only the growth and health of the network. @icechris
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7obi
YouTube guy above seems to be on a mission to game the system though, every video I have seen from him he is trying some tricks or amplifiers or two spots on one antenna. lol Not sure if that's bad as long as he provides coverage but how come he never beacons and gets heard?!
matmanmining 01/10/2022 4:14 PM
The youtube post indicates that there is no beacon if the hotspot is relayed, I just looked at one of my relayed hotspots, it still beacons.....and is witnessed. Maybe the number of beacons is reduced when in relayed status??
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hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦 01/10/2022 4:15 PM
relayed doesn't block challenges, but can limit speed and quantity.
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matmanmining
The youtube post indicates that there is no beacon if the hotspot is relayed, I just looked at one of my relayed hotspots, it still beacons.....and is witnessed. Maybe the number of beacons is reduced when in relayed status??
It's not his miner that is relayed, he claims that he only gets challenged by relayed miners, and therefore his beacons don't get witnesses. But somehow I doubt that is the only reason.
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matmanmining 01/10/2022 4:15 PM
@Anthonyra see what you did to me 😆
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7obi
It's not his miner that is relayed, he claims that he only gets challenged by relayed miners, and therefore his beacons don't get witnesses. But somehow I doubt that is the only reason.
matmanmining 01/10/2022 4:16 PM
Yeah, my god, if only relayed hotspots are sending challenges to him, he must have some bad luck
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matmanmining
Yeah, my god, if only relayed hotspots are sending challenges to him, he must have some bad luck
Not sure why relayed miners are allowed to issue challenges at all to be honest, if it won't work since they can't receive the witness receipts coming back. Just cut them out and save the network some bandwidth. Put a notice up to get the owner to fix that shizzle.
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7obi
Gotcha. Well in that case I'm all for it, but how sure are we that this guy is gaming the system?! Definitely needs a bit more research. My Hotspots seem unaffected by this but just trying to understand what it actually does.
I took a look at Wren and the imbalance of beacons to witnesses is concerning.. This could simply be because the operator installed it to witness more than to beacon. Which up until this point was incentivized by the reward structure and allowed by the blockchain. Now, what really concerns me is if you hop over to mappers.helium.com and take a look at where Wren is... the coverage is well "sad" to say the least. PoC is suppose to be a proxy at coverage and Hamburg should be lighting up but isnt... most hexes aren't even being picked up by Wren but it's able to witness?... now the max witness list size is 360 so there's growth there but based on current network stability could be a byproduct of it..
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Carl-bot BOT 01/10/2022 4:19 PM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
16:28
Probably a rogue antenna engineer installing secret miners on his jobs and raking it in haha!
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Once again, most of those setups are built with witnessing as the goal...
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Not sure I understand. Maybe that's what happens, but if I were to set up my miner up there with the best of intentions, how is that possible? If I can hear all of them and witness them, why can't they hear me? Can you spell out what this person would have done to build a setup that has witnessing as the goal? I would have put the miner there to provide the best coverage. But that's apparently not what happens. Would it be solved just by having him beacon more? (edited)
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A lot of times its about the antenna being used.. but the other side of it. If those hotspots completely stopped beaconing do you think the owners would send someone up the tower to fix them?
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Can't say. In this case probably, they seem to know what they are doing lol. Access to a TV tower is probably not someone who doesn't know their antennas or would want them to be out of order. (edited)
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Max - Just Max 01/10/2022 4:33 PM
Anthony tricked me into getting all of my hotspots on statics with the threat of this HIP
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16:33
It’ll work
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7obi
Can't say. In this case probably, they seem to know what they are doing lol. Access to a TV tower is probably not someone who doesn't know their antennas or would want them to be out of order. (edited)
It probably costs good money to send someone up that certified. I bet they wouldn't even see a difference in rewards if they did stop beaconing completely. As long as their neighbors continued to beacon the incentive for all the work boils down to morals.. not saying it's the driver for the HIP... but I want a better network around.
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Max - Just Max 01/10/2022 4:35 PM
You don’t need to send anyone up a tower for any of this
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Why would a hotspot stop beaconing though? If there's a fault with the antenna, wouldn't they also stop witnessing?
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Max - Just Max
Anthony tricked me into getting all of my hotspots on statics with the threat of this HIP
At this point, I'd be in favor of releasing this after LHS.. for one thing it'll make coding it easier no more need to wiggle room haha
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7obi
Why would a hotspot stop beaconing though? If there's a fault with the antenna, wouldn't they also stop witnessing?
Not having a static IP or even blocking the port completely would do it
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Simple me would say make a rule that stops relayed miners or miners with incorrect port config from participating at all, but there's probably a good reason to allow relayed miners so don't mind me. (edited)
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Max - Just Max 01/10/2022 4:37 PM
In 99% of situations anything needed to fix the beaconing can be done remotely
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Max - Just Max
You don’t need to send anyone up a tower for any of this
You do have a valid point here 🤔 but it does take some work and effort to "fix" them if there is a problem nonetheless
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By Static IP in this context, do you mean Static IP rented from ISP (often paid as extra), as opposed to dynamic IP, or is this only in the context of static IP assigned in local router? (Or both if 1 applies?) (edited)
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Anthonyra
You do have a valid point here 🤔 but it does take some work and effort to "fix" them if there is a problem nonetheless
Max - Just Max 01/10/2022 4:44 PM
Meh, it’s basically power cycle OR replace the SD card at this point
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Max - Just Max
Meh, it’s basically power cycle OR replace the SD card at this point
I've heard SD cards are becoming an issue again... some manufacturers more so then others.. You don't need to climb to change out an SD card? (edited)
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Anthonyra
I've heard SD cards are becoming an issue again... some manufacturers more so then others.. You don't need to climb to change out an SD card? (edited)
Max - Just Max 01/10/2022 4:46 PM
That’s the only time you need to climb
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Max - Just Max
That’s the only time you need to climb
Another great reason for Light Hotspots I suppose
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Max - Just Max 01/10/2022 4:47 PM
The P2P network isn’t my friend right now
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➡️ HIP 42 Live Q&A starting in ~5 mins! https://discord.com/events/404106811252408320/930210007608332328
snoop 1
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Reminder HIP 42 = the devil
facepalm 2
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matmanmining
The youtube post indicates that there is no beacon if the hotspot is relayed, I just looked at one of my relayed hotspots, it still beacons.....and is witnessed. Maybe the number of beacons is reduced when in relayed status??
This isn't gospel, but more of an observation I had at my own home with two hotspots on the property: I have one on an 80' tower, synced and not relayed. I powered up another in the house to get it synced before moving to it's future location. Both on the same internet connection. The latter was relayed. Then I got busy over the next couple days... ...I then reviewed the activity. Both were beaconing and each time they both were witnessed by each other. Half the time they were invalidated due to proximity I suppose. But at the end of the two days, both ceased to beacon. I was curious so I let it do a couple more days to see if it persisted. Yep...no beacons. After a week I removed the one in the house. The hotspot on the tower went back to beacons alongside the witnesses. What's the point of this story? Not much...just that I can't know for sure if the invalidated witnesses triggered a rule in POC to cease beacons, if the relayed spot in the house was a factor, or if another factor was in play. But I will say that half of the beacons/witnesses were completed successfully, while the other half were invalid.
17:21
I wish I had a better handle on how it all works...not to game, but to avoid dumb mistakes that delay good, honest rewards.
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This hip clips witnesses of top legit earners not just gamers. If you goal is to stop gamers give more of a buffer before the cap kicks in.
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17:38
It also clips people who have poor earnings who happen to be connected to campus or large facility networks that share an IP
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FILLC
I wish I had a better handle on how it all works...not to game, but to avoid dumb mistakes that delay good, honest rewards.
what was the distance between asserted locations for those two hotspots?
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Why would a test beacon work if the other beacons don't?
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beemjack577 01/10/2022 6:15 PM
How’s the test beacon supposed to be safe when a real beacon won’t
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Question @Anthonyra Why not / is it possible to keep a separate beacon list once per day on a longer wait to see if you CAN beacon? Don't reward for this poll but allow witnessing if you can send a beacon successfully (regardless of PoC beaconing)
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Nice job on the call @Anthonyra and @rawrmaan
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Great call BTW 💯 learned a lot
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Deleted User 01/10/2022 6:53 PM
is there a recording of the call that will be uploaded somewhere? I missed like 80% of it
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Thanks everyone!
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Deleted User
is there a recording of the call that will be uploaded somewhere? I missed like 80% of it
This will be uploaded to The Hotspot podcast on YouTube & all podcast apps
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Deleted User 01/10/2022 6:53 PM
perfect thanks
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Static Laws 01/10/2022 6:54 PM
So would my 4g backhaul setup that runs relayed but beacons and witnesses normally be affected? It is on a static ip.
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18:54
even beacons more than normal sometimes
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beemjack577
How’s the test beacon supposed to be safe when a real beacon won’t
My initial thoughts about a test beacon, this is napkin ideas on the implementation. The hotspot requests the test beacon and if approved by CG a validator would generate the challenge and become the challenger. The validator having a static IP would be more accessible than a random hotspot being a challenger. Hopefully making for a successful test beacon. The test beacon would be like the normal beacon but the witness cap would be set at the max witness list size, currently 360 (bloat of the blockchain might be a concern that'll need to be addressed). Once the test beacon is completed it'll be submitted as such to the blockchain. This will temporarily increase the witness list until other beacons are performed successfully. The test beacon however wouldn't be eligible for PoC rewards since the hotspot requests the test beacon. (edited)
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Carl-bot BOT 01/10/2022 6:55 PM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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joecoin
Question @Anthonyra Why not / is it possible to keep a separate beacon list once per day on a longer wait to see if you CAN beacon? Don't reward for this poll but allow witnessing if you can send a beacon successfully (regardless of PoC beaconing)
This would be what the test beacon would accomplish. I posted my initial thoughts on how it would be implemented above. The test beacon could also be a daily thing for all hotspot regardless of wits list status.. but then you'd need to worry about ledger and blockchain bloat since that'll add 450k new transactions per day
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same big O 😂 N + 1 => N
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Static Laws
So would my 4g backhaul setup that runs relayed but beacons and witnesses normally be affected? It is on a static ip.
In the HIP there's a link to a tool I created with the DeWi ETL that will take on chain data and perform the calculation to tell you if you'll be affected.
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Anthonyra
My initial thoughts about a test beacon, this is napkin ideas on the implementation. The hotspot requests the test beacon and if approved by CG a validator would generate the challenge and become the challenger. The validator having a static IP would be more accessible than a random hotspot being a challenger. Hopefully making for a successful test beacon. The test beacon would be like the normal beacon but the witness cap would be set at the max witness list size, currently 360 (bloat of the blockchain might be a concern that'll need to be addressed). Once the test beacon is completed it'll be submitted as such to the blockchain. This will temporarily increase the witness list until other beacons are performed successfully. The test beacon however wouldn't be eligible for PoC rewards since the hotspot requests the test beacon. (edited)
Yup that sounds just about perfect 👌 Right in line with what I was imagining 😂 (edited)
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joecoin
Yup that sounds just about perfect 👌 Right in line with what I was imagining 😂 (edited)
Also to note this would then probably be retired in place once Light Hotspots is implemented since it relies on the miner to have the blockchain synced. The other option is that the validators would assume the role to request test beacons on the transition.. which might open up PoC rewards and maybe guaranteed beacons (which is also a thought for a HIP of mine 😉 ) (edited)
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Anthonyra
In the HIP there's a link to a tool I created with the DeWi ETL that will take on chain data and perform the calculation to tell you if you'll be affected.
I am sorry if this is a repeat question. Are relayed hotspots going to be penalized or kept from earning rewards? If my current hotspots that witness and beacon successfully (50+ respectively daily or weekly) are relayed, how would this HIP affect my rewards?
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2DMoon
I am sorry if this is a repeat question. Are relayed hotspots going to be penalized or kept from earning rewards? If my current hotspots that witness and beacon successfully (50+ respectively daily or weekly) are relayed, how would this HIP affect my rewards?
As a rule of thumb, if you beacon and have a decent wits list compared to the number you witness receipts you claim you'll not be affected. Relayed hotspots are just more likely to have p2p issues is all. Please take a look at the HIP it has links to a tool to help you check with on chain data if you'd be affected if it was currently implemented. (edited)
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@Anthonyra great call today. I only caught the end of it so forgive me if I ask about something that was commented on. One of the purposes of this hip is to reduce gaming and it was mentioned hip42 was targeted to reduce specific gaming on the network and would not stop the clusters beaconing each other earning 20-30 HNT a day as pointed out by the gentleman from Netherlands. 1. What portion of the global rewards are being paid to the people you are trying to stop? 2. What portion of the global rewards are paid out to those with the clusters of 12-18 units input in Europe and All over the world spoofing? 3. It was mentioned no hip is ever designed to hurt the miners on the network yet I have yet to see one update that has increased rewards to all the miners. This update like others that chase spoofers hurts the average person more. I know this came up a lot but I along with other see this as another attempt to stop gamers at the sacrifice of honest users on the network. The network continues to be unstable and introducing more code and work for the back end and validates just seems like a waste at this point. I wish there was a way to get the job done without affecting everyone because it will cause more instability at the end of the day.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/10/2022 7:10 PM
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I should just copypasta this in the future.. but the HIP is such a good read coolcry
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GC
@Anthonyra great call today. I only caught the end of it so forgive me if I ask about something that was commented on. One of the purposes of this hip is to reduce gaming and it was mentioned hip42 was targeted to reduce specific gaming on the network and would not stop the clusters beaconing each other earning 20-30 HNT a day as pointed out by the gentleman from Netherlands. 1. What portion of the global rewards are being paid to the people you are trying to stop? 2. What portion of the global rewards are paid out to those with the clusters of 12-18 units input in Europe and All over the world spoofing? 3. It was mentioned no hip is ever designed to hurt the miners on the network yet I have yet to see one update that has increased rewards to all the miners. This update like others that chase spoofers hurts the average person more. I know this came up a lot but I along with other see this as another attempt to stop gamers at the sacrifice of honest users on the network. The network continues to be unstable and introducing more code and work for the back end and validates just seems like a waste at this point. I wish there was a way to get the job done without affecting everyone because it will cause more instability at the end of the day.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/10/2022 7:14 PM
1. & 2. No one knows the full actual amount of rewards being taken by cheaters. 3. Please check your hotspots before assuming this hurts legit & healthy installs.
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19:14
Do not confuse the normal drop in rewards with updates
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hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦 01/10/2022 7:14 PM
@Anthonyra Props for learning Erlang to help build the network. It's not a "friendly" language. I'd rather do my own dental work. 😜
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If Helium doesn't at some point cause me to use Erlang, I'm not sure what will...
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GC
@Anthonyra great call today. I only caught the end of it so forgive me if I ask about something that was commented on. One of the purposes of this hip is to reduce gaming and it was mentioned hip42 was targeted to reduce specific gaming on the network and would not stop the clusters beaconing each other earning 20-30 HNT a day as pointed out by the gentleman from Netherlands. 1. What portion of the global rewards are being paid to the people you are trying to stop? 2. What portion of the global rewards are paid out to those with the clusters of 12-18 units input in Europe and All over the world spoofing? 3. It was mentioned no hip is ever designed to hurt the miners on the network yet I have yet to see one update that has increased rewards to all the miners. This update like others that chase spoofers hurts the average person more. I know this came up a lot but I along with other see this as another attempt to stop gamers at the sacrifice of honest users on the network. The network continues to be unstable and introducing more code and work for the back end and validates just seems like a waste at this point. I wish there was a way to get the job done without affecting everyone because it will cause more instability at the end of the day.
For what its worth, my HIP-14 was suppose to combat those gamers you're talking about.. however it was considered too complex and HIP 15 / 17 was picked even though the intention wasn't anti-gaming. When it comes to HIP-42 it's meant to target a specific type of gaming which at the time of writing (9/30/21) of the HIP was being actively exploited. The gaming approach still exists. Just requires hardware vs software exploits. Long story short, this will plug one hole in the ship. I intend to plug more once this one is completed 🙂 (edited)
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joecoin
If Helium doesn't at some point cause me to use Erlang, I'm not sure what will...
Might want to go Rust honestly, blockchain core and validators will be Erlang but hotspots will be Rust. I expect the rest will follow with Rust shortly after
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Can't we just write everything in Python? 🤣
19:19
Only in my dreams? Ok, thought so 😭
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How do I vote against this
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You can't yet? But the same way you vote against anything... https://heliumvote.com/
Helium Vote is where the Helium Community comes together to make decisions on the Network.
19:34
(it's just a temp check, bro)
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Anthonyra
For what its worth, my HIP-14 was suppose to combat those gamers you're talking about.. however it was considered too complex and HIP 15 / 17 was picked even though the intention wasn't anti-gaming. When it comes to HIP-42 it's meant to target a specific type of gaming which at the time of writing (9/30/21) of the HIP was being actively exploited. The gaming approach still exists. Just requires hardware vs software exploits. Long story short, this will plug one hole in the ship. I intend to plug more once this one is completed 🙂 (edited)
Question that you may have alluded the answer to at one point during the call... Is having remote repeaters necessarily bad if the intention is to improve your coverage area, not just game the system? 🤔 Seems perhaps more cost effective to the operator if it could be done in a way that would provide: 1. Better 1-way communication while still providing adequate 2-way communication 2. Better 2-way communication (I'm honestly not informed enough to know if this is impossible for some reason) - I'd assume you could have a complex install that covers a very wide area
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joecoin
Question that you may have alluded the answer to at one point during the call... Is having remote repeaters necessarily bad if the intention is to improve your coverage area, not just game the system? 🤔 Seems perhaps more cost effective to the operator if it could be done in a way that would provide: 1. Better 1-way communication while still providing adequate 2-way communication 2. Better 2-way communication (I'm honestly not informed enough to know if this is impossible for some reason) - I'd assume you could have a complex install that covers a very wide area
That’s a long winded discussion for a later time… it’d require 1:1 controls with witnesses packets which would require cryptographic signatures which require a HIP19 approval for hardware..
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Anthonyra
That’s a long winded discussion for a later time… it’d require 1:1 controls with witnesses packets which would require cryptographic signatures which require a HIP19 approval for hardware..
Let's have that discussion sometime 🍻🤣
19:55
Thanks again 👍 was a great discussion
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joecoin
Thanks again 👍 was a great discussion
Not a problem and I’ll be down to discuss that question later, let’s work out a time
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@Anthonyra thanks for the discussion! It’s great to see this level of community engagement and I think we should all feel lucky to have such a forum to talk with HIP authors about their ideas. 🙏
20:09
Thanks @rawrmaan, as well, for hosting and coordinating.
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I'm relatively new to the Helium and ahve my HS up for like just 1 month. Done everything by the book, asserted in the right location, updated antenna to what it is supposed to be. Interestingly (or perhaps in this case of this HIP, unfortunately), I only have 3 witnesses. I do witness quite a few more. Going by the ETL link above, i'll be affected by this HIP, with a witness limit cap of 4. If i'd have to fathom a guess, i'll guess the intricacies of RF transmission being the issue here (I'm in highly urban Singapore). It also doesnt help that we've been limited to 16dbi on the tx side. To be honest, I'd have no idea what else to be done. I'm not the only one who is facing such issues here. It hardly seems fair to penalising us for not really doing anything wrong?
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j.funkie
I'm relatively new to the Helium and ahve my HS up for like just 1 month. Done everything by the book, asserted in the right location, updated antenna to what it is supposed to be. Interestingly (or perhaps in this case of this HIP, unfortunately), I only have 3 witnesses. I do witness quite a few more. Going by the ETL link above, i'll be affected by this HIP, with a witness limit cap of 4. If i'd have to fathom a guess, i'll guess the intricacies of RF transmission being the issue here (I'm in highly urban Singapore). It also doesnt help that we've been limited to 16dbi on the tx side. To be honest, I'd have no idea what else to be done. I'm not the only one who is facing such issues here. It hardly seems fair to penalising us for not really doing anything wrong?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/10/2022 8:31 PM
Poor setup are already penalized. Why would this be any different?
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So how is "poor" determined?
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j.funkie
So how is "poor" determined?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/10/2022 8:32 PM
If you're hardly being witnessed, your setup is not healthy.
20:32
What is the hotspot name?
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Am i right to say that this probably wouldnt affect me if I were in an area with lots of other miners?
20:32
Special Flint Hare
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j.funkie
Special Flint Hare
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/10/2022 8:37 PM
This hotspot has network issues. It beacons, but they are never seen.
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It beacons but only seen generally by 2 others recently
20:39
Would that be an indication of a network issue.. or a RF issue?
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j.funkie
It beacons but only seen generally by 2 others recently
Brainstormer 01/10/2022 8:42 PM
are you on wifi, and this is indoor?
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i just checked, 1 hour ago it beaconed and it was witnessed by 2 nearby hotspots
20:42
i'm connected via ethernet and antenna is outdoors
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j.funkie
i just checked, 1 hour ago it beaconed and it was witnessed by 2 nearby hotspots
Brainstormer 01/10/2022 8:44 PM
i used heliumstatus.io
20:44
this is your latency
20:44
Pinged /ip4/116.88.216.178/tcp/44158 successfully with latency: 181 ms Peer is online and reachable over the Helium P2P network. Pinged /ip4/116.88.216.178/tcp/44158 successfully with latency: 1156 ms Peer is online and reachable over the Helium P2P network. Pinged /ip4/116.88.216.178/tcp/44158 successfully with latency: 2975 ms Peer is online and reachable over the Helium P2P network.
20:45
so elontusk is right, you have network issues
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i just did it too.. Pinged /ip4/116.88.216.178/tcp/44158 successfully with latency: 195 ms Peer is online and reachable over the Helium P2P network. Pinged /ip4/116.88.216.178/tcp/44158 successfully with latency: 195 ms Peer is online and reachable over the Helium P2P network. Pinged /ip4/116.88.216.178/tcp/44158 successfully with latency: 190 ms Peer is online and reachable over the Helium P2P network. Pinged /ip4/116.88.216.178/tcp/44158 successfully with latency: 209 ms Peer is online and reachable over the Helium P2P network. Pinged /ip4/116.88.216.178/tcp/44158 successfully with latency: 204 ms Peer is online and reachable over the Helium P2P network.
20:45
interesting
20:46
any advise on where to start looking?
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matmanmining 01/10/2022 8:49 PM
What should the ping latency be??
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i've just done it another 5 times.. it averages out to be around 180-190ms
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eigentech
what was the distance between asserted locations for those two hotspots?
half a mile
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j.funkie
i've just done it another 5 times.. it averages out to be around 180-190ms
matmanmining 01/10/2022 8:55 PM
all of my hotspots are in that range 160-200
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So I would assume that my Pings arnt that bad perhaps.
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matmanmining 01/10/2022 9:00 PM
Those high ping values could be a problem....but I dont know what the cause would be
21:00
might be your wifi signal dropping in and out
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cabled. no wifi on my HS
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j.funkie
So I would assume that my Pings arnt that bad perhaps.
pings are not that bad considering the servers used are based in EU
21:30
also this conversation is more for #hotspot-help or #general
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~Devo~
also this conversation is more for #hotspot-help or #general
👍 conversation only arose as I was voicing concerns on how HIP42 would affect me (and others in my region)
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rawrmaan
➡️ HIP 42 Live Q&A starting in ~5 mins! https://discord.com/events/404106811252408320/930210007608332328
Pastor Yoda 01/10/2022 9:50 PM
Recorded ?
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Pastor Yoda
Recorded ?
yes it will be posted on The Hotspot Podcast
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This will kill the network GG
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Rov
This will kill the network GG
I agree...
08:18
Voted against
08:18
too many scenario's where this will turn out just bad
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Checkkill
I agree...
Well 100% it will, people are makeing most of their money from witness. The most passionate people in this is those who earn the most and contributing the most to the network, by finding good locations and doing all the hassle to get it running. This proposal 100% kill that and only benefit those who have done absolutely nothing to improve the coverage.
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My miners are among the best coverage in my area and I'm not affected. Only people this affects is folks with flarm boosters, 2 antennas, etc targeting densely covered urban areas
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bashtavi
My miners are among the best coverage in my area and I'm not affected. Only people this affects is folks with flarm boosters, 2 antennas, etc targeting densely covered urban areas
And those who have bad luck and spend days without sending beacons. Can we guarantee a fair distribution of beacons? Do we know why some hotpots have many "bad days" without sending beacons? Then we are punishing them. Maybe we should first provide stability to the network. (edited)
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TH0R
And those who have bad luck and spend days without sending beacons. Can we guarantee a fair distribution of beacons? Do we know why some hotpots have many "bad days" without sending beacons? Then we are punishing them. Maybe we should first provide stability to the network. (edited)
As far as I understand, this is being thought about? In any case, I don't imagine this is the majority of the network
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bashtavi
As far as I understand, this is being thought about? In any case, I don't imagine this is the majority of the network
Ok, but then we have to balance the pros and cons. And there are many other ways to stop cheaters without having a negative impact on legit hotspots
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How can helium not just run a validation check on every miner?
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TH0R
Ok, but then we have to balance the pros and cons. And there are many other ways to stop cheaters without having a negative impact on legit hotspots
That's fair, but there's a fine line between cheating and going out of your way to optimise for witnessing in a way that doesn't actually benefit the network, only yourself. Adding 2 antennas or boosters is not cheating I think, it's just unnecessary
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STACKIN BAGS $-ERGO-$ 01/11/2022 9:06 AM
well some dick head uploaded this...just popped up on my feed... its like youtube wants to piss me off.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTvsOuEBjLo
09:07
POS SPOOFERS
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I'm a run-of-the-mill hotspot owner. I climb tall buildings and run ethernet cables over 10 floors etc. That's already enough investment and it serves the network well - I set up in a good location, I beacon and I cover a wide area. Me adding signal boosters, huge sector antennas or multiple antennas does nothing extra. The way I see it, most hotspot owners (i.e. folk like me) only stand to benefit from this HIP
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They have those clusters identified. I don't know why don't they address directly the problem instead of inventing workarounds...
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STACKIN BAGS $-ERGO-$
well some dick head uploaded this...just popped up on my feed... its like youtube wants to piss me off.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTvsOuEBjLo
there are no concentrators in the PCIE slots or at least SPI proxies, is it all emulated in software ? Why do they need that many PCBs ? If spoofers so much lack imagination, should be easy to catch them
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TH0R
They have those clusters identified. I don't know why don't they address directly the problem instead of inventing workarounds...
#hip-40-validator-denylist
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What’s the purpose of this hip anyway
10:12
Is it necessary really?
10:14
You know spoofed hotspots are basically in a farm with attenuators and get normal witness/beacon ratio right?
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Rov
How can helium not just run a validation check on every miner?
Such A check doesnt exist (edited)
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Mr_Fizzer
You know spoofed hotspots are basically in a farm with attenuators and get normal witness/beacon ratio right?
This HIP isn't targeting the spoofing hotspots, it's meant to define an "optimal" setup based on PoC and protect helium against witness repeating. There's multiple options that could be taken to meet these goals. For example, to rebalance beaconing and witnesses we could simply change the reward pool allocations for beacons and witnesses. (there's pros and cons to this hence why this HIP doesn't suggest doing it this way but if you'd like to author a HIP I'd love to read it).. HIP-44 is an alternative to combat the witness repeating gaming that we have seen (which still exists) and it's a solid one at that. But I don't like the difficultly it would be to audit rewards and it doesn't prevent them from forwarding 10's of thousands of witnesses to their hotspots they simple won't get as much in rewards as they do today. (edited)
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How will this affect hotspots like mine that randomly flatline for several days in a row for no explainable reason? I don't have a shitty setup and it's not a networking issue on my end. Will we be penalized even further for something that is out of our control?
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STACKIN BAGS $-ERGO-$
well some dick head uploaded this...just popped up on my feed... its like youtube wants to piss me off.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTvsOuEBjLo
Wtf is this? They dont even have antennas?
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WenShip
How will this affect hotspots like mine that randomly flatline for several days in a row for no explainable reason? I don't have a shitty setup and it's not a networking issue on my end. Will we be penalized even further for something that is out of our control?
In the HIP, it talks about situations when your wits list reaches 0. I'm leaning towards a test beacon but core devs might tell me that's not a good idea. The alternative is if you have a 0 wits list you are still allowed 24 witness receipts per day until beacons can bring up you wits list again (edited)
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Anthonyra
In the HIP, it talks about situations when your wits list reaches 0. I'm leaning towards a test beacon but core devs might tell me that's not a good idea. The alternative is if you have a 0 wits list you are still allowed 24 witness receipts per day until beacons can bring up you wits list again (edited)
Okay thanks for explaining. Doesn't sound as bad as I thought then.
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WenShip
Okay thanks for explaining. Doesn't sound as bad as I thought then.
No problem, thanks for voicing your concern! I'm trying the best to make this an improvement.. even with the current network issues
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bashtavi
My miners are among the best coverage in my area and I'm not affected. Only people this affects is folks with flarm boosters, 2 antennas, etc targeting densely covered urban areas
I can guarantee you that is not the case.
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donp
I can guarantee you that is not the case.
Please provide the data, also if this is in regards to a local network configuration that isn't ideal for the Helium ecosystem (multiple hotspots sharing the same IP) then it's a different category itself (edited)
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After reading the comments here for the last few days, it seems to me that people have the definition of an "ideal set up" incorrect. It is NOT to hear a lot of other hotspots. To be at the top of a hill and catch every beacon of every hotspot in the valley below. Yes, the rewards are currently rewarding it, but it isn't what this is about. The ideal set up is to be an onramp for the sensors that are coming. Low power sensors. Your antenna on a hill is not going to hear the dog collar on the other side of the bottom of the valley below. Your cell tower install is not going to hear the 'mailbox is full' sensor 60 km away even if it has clear line of sight. Hotspot are beaconing at far more power than sensors. "Ideal" is to prepare for when LoRa sensors are everywhere. Cell tower installs are just exploiting the current reward scheme. Mind you, I do understand that the current reward scheme is probably a pretty good strategy to get to ideal but it is this HIP and others that is trying to get the current reward scheme to better align the hotspots with the actual ideal set up. That is, to do a good job listening and downlinking to the sensors in your area with some redundancy with the hotspots in your area. (edited)
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KeithR
After reading the comments here for the last few days, it seems to me that people have the definition of an "ideal set up" incorrect. It is NOT to hear a lot of other hotspots. To be at the top of a hill and catch every beacon of every hotspot in the valley below. Yes, the rewards are currently rewarding it, but it isn't what this is about. The ideal set up is to be an onramp for the sensors that are coming. Low power sensors. Your antenna on a hill is not going to hear the dog collar on the other side of the bottom of the valley below. Your cell tower install is not going to hear the 'mailbox is full' sensor 60 km away even if it has clear line of sight. Hotspot are beaconing at far more power than sensors. "Ideal" is to prepare for when LoRa sensors are everywhere. Cell tower installs are just exploiting the current reward scheme. Mind you, I do understand that the current reward scheme is probably a pretty good strategy to get to ideal but it is this HIP and others that is trying to get the current reward scheme to better align the hotspots with the actual ideal set up. That is, to do a good job listening and downlinking to the sensors in your area with some redundancy with the hotspots in your area. (edited)
Actually, my cell tower and roof top setups can and are able to talk with my mapper across the city
13:16
Up to 20km
13:16
Mapper was set to 12 dBm transmit power (edited)
13:16
Where as a GPS tag tracker RX at 19 dBm
13:17
At any point in and out of the city, at least one of my hotspot is able to provide coverage. Where no other hotspots can (edited)
13:17
If that’s not good setup, idk what is
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I have the same experience with LoRa
13:21
GPS tracker in a backpack in a train is still heard by an antenna on a radio tower 30km further
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FezzFest
GPS tracker in a backpack in a train is still heard by an antenna on a radio tower 30km further
And if we’re not for that hotspot you won’t have coverage
13:22
So the argument is kinda dumb
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Mr_Fizzer
Actually, my cell tower and roof top setups can and are able to talk with my mapper across the city
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/11/2022 1:29 PM
And is your cell tower setup actually affected?
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To be clear, those setups are great at witnessing but I'd love to see an experiment ran in regards with what the HIP is trying to do. In this experiment I'd love to see two devices 20km away from a tower with other hotspots in between. The first device is setup to accept all packets (multi-packet enabled) the second device is setup to accept only one packet. I'm curious on how the single packet device fairs in being broadcasted by the tower. Now this would explain how well those setups are for witnessing / uplinks. Which I'm well aware that they do a very fine job at that. The second part of this experiment would be to request downlinks and see if the tower provides that downlink before another hotspot does or not. I guess the second part also depends on if you can see which hotspot provided the downlink for said device in console. It's been a while since I've played with the console. (pre 2.0). Then the third part is how does the Blockchain know if a hotspot is good at uplinks and downlinks? Is PoC actually a good proxy at gauging that real life data/experience. Mind you - if your tower proves both parts of the experiment shows your tower the victor then I bet your tower isn't affected by this HIP... and if it is it's probably so close that the question is will it be that detrimental to your well being... or maybe the compensation factor needs 0.1 as an example (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
And is your cell tower setup actually affected?
If the simulation is accurate, then no
13:35
But I just don't see how this would actually do anything or benefit anyone
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Mr_Fizzer
If the simulation is accurate, then no
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/11/2022 1:36 PM
Well then there ya go... The affected hotspots are unhealthy ones and cheaters (that one specific exploit). Even super nice setups are very hard pressed to be affected by this.
13:36
This kneejerk reaction that "my good setup is going to be punished" is simply not true.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
This kneejerk reaction that "my good setup is going to be punished" is simply not true.
Ok, so I went and picked a high earning spot in Belgium
13:37
Tall Mandarin Rattlesnake
13:37
1.8 today
13:37
And it is affected according to the simulation
13:37
Does that means it is cheating? (edited)
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Mr_Fizzer
Ok, so I went and picked a high earning spot in Belgium
Do you know that setup?
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Anthonyra
Do you know that setup?
I don't just a random spot I picked with high earning
13:39
In fact
13:39
All of the hotspots in that wallet are affected (edited)
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Mr_Fizzer
Does that means it is cheating? (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/11/2022 1:39 PM
No. It means that this excessive activity is not useful to the network. (edited)
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KeithR
After reading the comments here for the last few days, it seems to me that people have the definition of an "ideal set up" incorrect. It is NOT to hear a lot of other hotspots. To be at the top of a hill and catch every beacon of every hotspot in the valley below. Yes, the rewards are currently rewarding it, but it isn't what this is about. The ideal set up is to be an onramp for the sensors that are coming. Low power sensors. Your antenna on a hill is not going to hear the dog collar on the other side of the bottom of the valley below. Your cell tower install is not going to hear the 'mailbox is full' sensor 60 km away even if it has clear line of sight. Hotspot are beaconing at far more power than sensors. "Ideal" is to prepare for when LoRa sensors are everywhere. Cell tower installs are just exploiting the current reward scheme. Mind you, I do understand that the current reward scheme is probably a pretty good strategy to get to ideal but it is this HIP and others that is trying to get the current reward scheme to better align the hotspots with the actual ideal set up. That is, to do a good job listening and downlinking to the sensors in your area with some redundancy with the hotspots in your area. (edited)
Small comment/question Keith, the telecom operator i work for runs a lorawan network from its cell towers, but i guess maybe operators are allowed higher dbi's on their antenna's and thats why that setup works for us to cover the whole of NL?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/11/2022 1:39 PM
Though it could be cheating in some way I suppose. Don't know.
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Like
13:40
The earnings from those Belgium/Netherland spots makes my eyes water
13:40
Is it safe to say they're cheating some how?
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Mr_Fizzer
Is it safe to say they're cheating some how?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/11/2022 1:41 PM
Perhaps. I don't have proof. But yes, their earnings are way more than average. It's likely something is going on there.
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I mean they're in area with no other miners around
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Mr_Fizzer
I mean they're in area with no other miners around
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/11/2022 1:42 PM
What do you mean? There is a lot of hotspots around Tall Mandarin Rattlesnake (within 30km)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
What do you mean? There is a lot of hotspots around Tall Mandarin Rattlesnake (within 30km)
Yes, but compare to cities and towns
13:43
I'd say 30km is pretty rural
13:43
Or under covered
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The mappers.helium.com also doesn't give me the warm and fuzzies either... there was a mapper out that way 4 months ago and didn't see it..
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I mean
13:44
I wonder how they're seeing 2000 beacons
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Mr_Fizzer
Or under covered
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/11/2022 1:44 PM
To be fair, it's coverage area is pretty good. But if they height is real (45m), it's not unheard of. 🙂
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I don't like to call people out without concrete proof but witness repeating is a thing and still is possible with the right knowledge...
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
To be fair, it's coverage area is pretty good. But if they height is real (45m), it's not unheard of. 🙂
But in the middle of no where belgium?
13:45
45m is pretty high
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Mr_Fizzer
But in the middle of no where belgium?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/11/2022 1:45 PM
100km radius covers a lot of hotspots. 😉
13:47
Anyway... not saying for sure if this one is cheating. Either they are and 42 would limit their stealing from the rest of us or They are legit and the excessive imbalance in their witnessing to beacon ratio (not healthy for the network) would be trimmed due to 42
13:48
It's a win for the network either way 🙂
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I'd like to say they are cheating
13:48
But 🤷‍♂️
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Mr_Fizzer
I'd like to say they are cheating
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/11/2022 1:48 PM
My gut says yes as well, I just have no proof 🙂
13:49
But this is why we are working on HIPs 40, 42 and 44 🙂
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Maybe there should be a beta test for this
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/11/2022 1:49 PM
Health of the network + making it harder to cheat
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If they aren't then all that's needed is beacons.. which is something they can fix.. if it is cheating it'll make the network healthier. There's no way to proof it unless I hop on a plane and record data myself but then what? I can put it on suspots.com but they will continue to be rewarded. HIP-42 gives the blockchain some push back
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/11/2022 1:50 PM
Oh, BTW @Anthonyra, the "name name name" calc isn't working. Only the hotspot address one is.
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Even then, they'll only go from 1.87 HNT /day to 1.37 HNT /day with the current proposal.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Oh, BTW @Anthonyra, the "name name name" calc isn't working. Only the hotspot address one is.
I don't like that one... I like the p2p one more but people requested the option to search via name facepalm
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Anthonyra
Even then, they'll only go from 1.87 HNT /day to 1.37 HNT /day with the current proposal.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/11/2022 1:52 PM
Meanwhile the global avg is 0.16hnt/day/hotspot 😅
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Anthonyra
If they aren't then all that's needed is beacons.. which is something they can fix.. if it is cheating it'll make the network healthier. There's no way to proof it unless I hop on a plane and record data myself but then what? I can put it on suspots.com but they will continue to be rewarded. HIP-42 gives the blockchain some push back
What you're able to implement it for a few days
13:53
and gauge the results
13:53
Like whatever they did with poc11
13:53
Say this vote passes
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Mr_Fizzer
Maybe there should be a beta test for this
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/11/2022 1:55 PM
@Anthonyra is a larger version of the calc possible? One that pull all hotspot data and spits out some numbers as far as total effects on all hotspots? I know that's a lot of data to crunch..
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Mr_Fizzer
What you're able to implement it for a few days
Based on how it's going to be implemented. We can run on chain simulation and this time use something more powerful then the DeWi ETL to get a gauge of overall network affect. But like most things there a line of acceptable affect and not... The idea was to do this anyways to recalculate the compensation factor. Which until hotspots might happen a few times.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
@Anthonyra is a larger version of the calc possible? One that pull all hotspot data and spits out some numbers as far as total effects on all hotspots? I know that's a lot of data to crunch..
I'd probably need to sweet talk hashc0de to do it
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Mr_Fizzer
Say this vote passes
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/11/2022 1:56 PM
Wel the current vote is just a temp check, not a "real" vote 🙂
13:56
haha Nice name, Max.
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Max - Just Max 01/11/2022 1:56 PM
I get the implementation as an anti-gaming method. If this comes out post Lite-Hotspots does this accomplish the original goal?
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Name checks out
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Max - Just Max
I get the implementation as an anti-gaming method. If this comes out post Lite-Hotspots does this accomplish the original goal?
I mean if this actually have a positive effects on the whole network, I'd rather it to be implemented sooner than later
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Max - Just Max
I get the implementation as an anti-gaming method. If this comes out post Lite-Hotspots does this accomplish the original goal?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/11/2022 1:57 PM
I would think so
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Max - Just Max 01/11/2022 1:58 PM
What is the scenario where people don't beacon enough that aren't gaming if ports being open doesn't matter?
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Mr_Fizzer
I mean if this actually have a positive effects on the whole network, I'd rather it to be implemented sooner than later
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/11/2022 1:58 PM
Well due to the current p2p issues, it might have to wait until LHs
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Max - Just Max
I get the implementation as an anti-gaming method. If this comes out post Lite-Hotspots does this accomplish the original goal?
Yes, just it won't need the compensation factor or test beacons most likely
14:00
I'm in no rush to implement this tomorrow for what its worth. However, I would love to know if I should spend my valuable time developing this for the Helium network hence the temperature check vote
prayweary 2
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Anthonyra
I don't like that one... I like the p2p one more but people requested the option to search via name facepalm
Maybe it's due to name conflicting. Perhaps one needs to add a row for each hotspot with the same three words. And add a column for the unique hotspot adress so the user can identify himself
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Lee
Maybe it's due to name conflicting. Perhaps one needs to add a row for each hotspot with the same three words. And add a column for the unique hotspot adress so the user can identify himself
I'll need to poke around more for sure also..
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This guy start 6 hotspots all at the same time just 4 hours ago and so far he got 4 hnt!!! https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/13i8deriAhyxfmPYyHXoXDTa1rjB5PbGG1QhbEFaGkXiDVKY3Ud/hotspots
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meazer
This guy start 6 hotspots all at the same time just 4 hours ago and so far he got 4 hnt!!! https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/13i8deriAhyxfmPYyHXoXDTa1rjB5PbGG1QhbEFaGkXiDVKY3Ud/hotspots
Pop his hotspot addresses into the simulation
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How can we simulate this hip 42?
15:32
Use your miner address
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Sorry, U already found. There we can see the results if we are affected or not right? Simple as that?
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GФMΞS
Sorry, U already found. There we can see the results if we are affected or not right? Simple as that?
Yes, the tool will grab on chain data and simulate the result for you
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Anthonyra
Yes, the tool will grab on chain data and simulate the result for you
Tested and both gave not affected 😁 noice kkk
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meazer
This guy start 6 hotspots all at the same time just 4 hours ago and so far he got 4 hnt!!! https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/13i8deriAhyxfmPYyHXoXDTa1rjB5PbGG1QhbEFaGkXiDVKY3Ud/hotspots
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/11/2022 3:53 PM
All 0 witnesses. Likely the same old exploit.
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How would this affect those with extraordinary setups? like for example, a miner that may be in a spot where it can witness many beacons in the town across them but no one can witness the miner
15:56
how could HIP 42 differentiate between a great setup or a gamer based on a ratio
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Broheims
How would this affect those with extraordinary setups? like for example, a miner that may be in a spot where it can witness many beacons in the town across them but no one can witness the miner
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/11/2022 3:57 PM
A hotspot that can't be witnessed is not a "great setup". (edited)
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well hotspots that couldn't be witnessed are earning great number of rewards by just witnessing those in the area
15:58
making outstanding amounts but all they did was put their miner on a tower (edited)
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Broheims
well hotspots that couldn't be witnessed are earning great number of rewards by just witnessing those in the area
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/11/2022 3:59 PM
And that is a problem. That is not healthy for the network.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
A hotspot that can't be witnessed is not a "great setup". (edited)
does this mean it would punish those who arent gaming?
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Broheims
does this mean it would punish those who arent gaming?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/11/2022 4:00 PM
This HIP is not just about gaming. It is about healthy network. The anti-gaming bit just also happens to punish a type of exploit 🙂
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ok thanks for answering
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Broheims
making outstanding amounts but all they did was put their miner on a tower (edited)
If a tower setup makes the amount some of these high earners does everyone would be doing it
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16:07
Tower/rooftop setup do make a lot
16:07
Higher than average
16:07
But not 1.5+ a day like some of these suspicious ones
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Mr_Fizzer
But not 1.5+ a day like some of these suspicious ones
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/11/2022 4:10 PM
Yeah, shouldn't be 10x the average 😉
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Mr_Fizzer
But not 1.5+ a day like some of these suspicious ones
Some of these belgian towers are actually confirmed to be there. So I won't say it's impossible especially since the country is flat. (edited)
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Sloth
Some of these belgian towers are actually confirmed to be there. So I won't say it's impossible especially since the country is flat. (edited)
Well I live in the flattest part of North America, and I'm not seeing anywhere close to that kind of result
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1 to 1.25HNT is very easy here with legit setups and 6.5dBi antenna on just an apartment building @ 40 meters.
16:25
Add some cavity filters, patch antennas and height in the mix and I'm sure you can get better than that.
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I'm gg to go out on a limb here and say.. if the aim is to really expand the network and make it great, then HIPs like HIP49 should be prioritised over something like this HIP. I fully agree that gamers should be punished, but if the basic 'problems' where hotspots are limited to a transmit power much lower than the regulatory limit arbitrarily, shouldn't that be the more important fix? 16dBi to 27dbi is a huge difference! Some regions in asia have also completely lost the ability to transmit due to frequency mismatches i believe.
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j.funkie
I'm gg to go out on a limb here and say.. if the aim is to really expand the network and make it great, then HIPs like HIP49 should be prioritised over something like this HIP. I fully agree that gamers should be punished, but if the basic 'problems' where hotspots are limited to a transmit power much lower than the regulatory limit arbitrarily, shouldn't that be the more important fix? 16dBi to 27dbi is a huge difference! Some regions in asia have also completely lost the ability to transmit due to frequency mismatches i believe.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/11/2022 4:29 PM
49 isn't related to this.
16:30
Also, it's not a zero sum game. Multiple HIPs can be worked on at the same time.
16:30
It's not "this HIP or that HIP"
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Sloth
1 to 1.25HNT is very easy here with legit setups and 6.5dBi antenna on just an apartment building @ 40 meters.
Isn't cavity filter just an oversized bandpass filter
16:31
Also
16:31
If it's "very easy" like you say
16:31
Then why aren't we seeing more of it
16:31
people doing 1+/day
16:34
Not saying it's impossible, but at least some of them are suspicious, they are so far on the end of the distribution...
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Oh some of them are certainly suspicious. But 1.5HNT should be doable. The problem is probably that there aren't enough high towers easily accessible. In my city there are a handful of apartment blocks. The rest is all low buildings, 8 maybe 12 meters and hotspots have high transmit scales 0.8~1. So you have a big advantage there. My regular witnessing range is up to 100km. My max 236km. (edited)
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Sloth
Oh some of them are certainly suspicious. But 1.5HNT should be doable. The problem is probably that there aren't enough high towers easily accessible. In my city there are a handful of apartment blocks. The rest is all low buildings, 8 maybe 12 meters and hotspots have high transmit scales 0.8~1. So you have a big advantage there. My regular witnessing range is up to 100km. My max 236km. (edited)
EU moment 🥲
16:39
915 could never
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But like
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it's pretty incredible what kind of range we still get
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2000+ witness/5days is quite excessive don't you think
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oh certainly
16:40
Today was a really good day: 495 PoC beacons. Not all were rewarded to the hotspot though.
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Like
16:41
again
16:41
Tall Mandarin Rattlesnake
16:41
20930 7d beacons
16:41
but only 132 witnesses
16:41
Where does all those beacons come from?
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some smell of packet forwarding there 🙂
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Sloth
some smell of packet forwarding there 🙂
Like
16:44
Bruh
16:44
Just did a cross reference between google map and hotspotty
16:44
for Tall Mandarin Rattlesnake
16:45
Do a street view, like where do you see a 45m high structure (edited)
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CrunchBang';-- 01/11/2022 4:46 PM
I didn't know it was possible to witness at 50km+ that's impressive
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CrunchBang';--
I didn't know it was possible to witness at 50km+ that's impressive
868 is different than 915
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CrunchBang';--
I didn't know it was possible to witness at 50km+ that's impressive
It's really nothing special here. We have higher spreading factor 12 as well. And then people complain about the 14dBm(16?) limit! (edited)
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Treashunter 01/11/2022 4:48 PM
Nah I do 40km+ with a 3db in the us
16:48
All depends on terrain
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shadowmeree 01/11/2022 4:51 PM
There needs to be a recognition that some of us are constrained to very suboptimal environments where the only thing to do is mount the antenna on the balcony/window and hope for the best. I'm in a major city filled with high rise buildings that absolutely mess up RF. Many hotspots that don't have the benefit of being on high floors barely get any witnesses. My own ratio of witnessed to witnesses is like 3+ to 1 (highly variable if I get 2, 3 or 4 witnesses that week, maybe 5 occasionally), and just randomly clicking on hotspots around me tells a similar story. This HIP, in conjunction with the ongoing EIRP limits, will absolutely neuter earnings for us except those lucky enough to be staying on high floors
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16:57
To add, I have no clue why we tend to witness more than we're witnessed. Few of us are earning anything close to the amount you guys are bandying about - definitely not a case of gaming - and in fact overall earnings are way below the global average (as expected of a congested city)
16:58
So this is the perspective of a "run of the mill" hotspot but in a very different geographical/topological context
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
shadowmeree 01/11/2022 4:58 PM
Yes
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Oh boy. We got some big wallets voting no. Wonder where they got that amount of HNT 🤔
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Anunnaaki
Oh boy. We got some big wallets voting no. Wonder where they got that amount of HNT 🤔
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/11/2022 5:09 PM
Older miners got a lot more HNT for the same effort just a year ago.
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
this would definitely be a good gauge and isnt an impossible task to carryout i would think?
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CuttingPotato 01/11/2022 6:40 PM
https://youtu.be/z83MfXSepBY I hope it doesnt go through this guy has a really good point against hip-42
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CuttingPotato
https://youtu.be/z83MfXSepBY I hope it doesnt go through this guy has a really good point against hip-42
Lmao
18:45
Please no sorin
18:45
He’s literally doing boarderline gaming shit
18:45
Of course he’s gonna be screwed
18:46
He didn’t even use the simulation to see if he’s actually affected either
18:46
Garbage content like usual
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CuttingPotato 01/11/2022 7:06 PM
His point about the hotspot that are in small clusters are those that will be struggling with "bad luck" is valid though. Just because the guy games the system doesn't mean he's unqualified for an opinion, seems more educated then most.
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CuttingPotato
His point about the hotspot that are in small clusters are those that will be struggling with "bad luck" is valid though. Just because the guy games the system doesn't mean he's unqualified for an opinion, seems more educated then most.
I’d recommend reading the HIP again.. and look closely at the Edge Case Concerns section long with the discussion about why I suggest using a 5 day bucket to gauge a hotspots performance in regards to the wits list (edited)
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CuttingPotato 01/11/2022 7:18 PM
From what I understand if this hip does go through we'd need to also reconsider how a challenger works and the regulations around that, If a beacon has been transmitted and picked up multiple witnesses but the beacon challenger is in relay then the beacon just doesn't go though. Surely this should be seen as a huge no no and fixed before implementing hip-42?
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I don't think sorin is a reliable source, he's biased and just got a lot of time on his hand
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CuttingPotato
From what I understand if this hip does go through we'd need to also reconsider how a challenger works and the regulations around that, If a beacon has been transmitted and picked up multiple witnesses but the beacon challenger is in relay then the beacon just doesn't go though. Surely this should be seen as a huge no no and fixed before implementing hip-42?
For one, I’d be writing this code which is why it’s called a temperature check. So that core devs won’t be distracted from the light hotspot development that is the fix to those concerns. Question now is, what it intends to do is worth me coding it..
19:27
Because I don’t want to take that time and effort to put it up to an official vote to be “no”
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Mr_Fizzer
I don't think sorin is a reliable source, he's biased and just got a lot of time on his hand
CuttingPotato 01/11/2022 7:27 PM
You can't discredit him just because "he has a lot of time on his hands" wot?
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Anthonyra
For one, I’d be writing this code which is why it’s called a temperature check. So that core devs won’t be distracted from the light hotspot development that is the fix to those concerns. Question now is, what it intends to do is worth me coding it..
CuttingPotato 01/11/2022 7:29 PM
Yeah but surely wait until the light hotspots are up and running before implementing this, it makes it a lot less controversial and it just feel a bit premature to release this hip now
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CuttingPotato
You can't discredit him just because "he has a lot of time on his hands" wot?
I'm saying that cause he doesn't actually have that much technical knowledge, he's just like regular person who has a lot of time on he's hand to do non scientific sudo experiments. Some of his stuff might make sense, but I think he's not reliable source of knowledge and should be view as entertainment only
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CuttingPotato 01/11/2022 7:31 PM
Also you could actually justify the concerns by saying "we have the light hotspots up and running so there no need to worry" but you can't even say that now. So in the short term its going to hurt he helium community which isn't ideal but yeah like you said in the long run it would work out, so why not just release it when the time is right?
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CuttingPotato
Yeah but surely wait until the light hotspots are up and running before implementing this, it makes it a lot less controversial and it just feel a bit premature to release this hip now
I don’t think because something is in a bad place that an improvement should be shelved. I appreciate your opinion and concerns. I’ve added what I feel is adequate compensation for network concerns. (edited)
19:32
But I’d rather not wait 5 months for light hotspots to find out that this HIP is needed (another round of witness repeating) and then take 3 months to release the code
19:33
Because most people seem to be fueled more by gaming concerns then overall network health and stability… since PoC needs both beacons and witnesses to work
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CuttingPotato 01/11/2022 7:34 PM
I don't honestly think it should be shelved either but I do think it should be released soon after the light hotspots, now it seems a little too early as there are no real justifications for it also a lot of people have no idea of whats going on as its not really well defined. Go online and you can see theres a lot of questions about it, but in all honesty it makes sense to apply to helium but just not right now. Also what's the rush to implement it?
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CuttingPotato
I don't honestly think it should be shelved either but I do think it should be released soon after the light hotspots, now it seems a little too early as there are no real justifications for it also a lot of people have no idea of whats going on as its not really well defined. Go online and you can see theres a lot of questions about it, but in all honesty it makes sense to apply to helium but just not right now. Also what's the rush to implement it?
There’s is no rush to implement but if this passes this temperature check vote I just signed up a significant chunk of my time that’s all volunteer.
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CuttingPotato 01/11/2022 7:38 PM
Doesn't really matter if it still gets voted in eventually when its needed
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CuttingPotato
Doesn't really matter if it still gets voted in eventually when its needed
Sure, but this vote literally is to see if I should change this HIP into code. If it’s a no maybe it’ll get implemented in the future still maybe not. (edited)
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Anthonyra
Sure, but this vote literally is to see if I should change this HIP into code. If it’s a no maybe it’ll get implemented in the future still maybe not. (edited)
CuttingPotato 01/11/2022 7:44 PM
I defo think it will have its needs in the future just not now especially when gaming is seen as the #1 issue for helium because in a sense it affects all aspects of the network
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CuttingPotato
I defo think it will have its needs in the future just not now especially when gaming is seen as the #1 issue for helium because in a sense it affects all aspects of the network
Then it sounds like you’re going to vote yes on the temperature check. The next vote will be to activate it on chain with details on implementation and chain variables that’ll be used
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it does seem like helium implemented something already (https://github.com/FezzFest/check-helium-bannedlist)
Allows you to check if your hotspot was banned by Helium Inc for violation of non-existing rules - GitHub - FezzFest/check-helium-bannedlist: Allows you to check if your hotspot was banned by Heliu...
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Yeah, I'm not sure why I'm putting in the effort to join the discussion when apparently, the Helium devs do whatever they want anyways
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FezzFest
Yeah, I'm not sure why I'm putting in the effort to join the discussion when apparently, the Helium devs do whatever they want anyways
Well they just mentioned a banned list in announcements. This the only way to check the list?
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Yes. At the moment, it is the only way to check the list.
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FezzFest
Yes. At the moment, it is the only way to check the list.
I wish I knew how to follow your instructions. Not sure how to SSH into my hotspot.
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Will this HIP stop earnings for relayed hotspots? The majority of mine are relayed. It's a bit difficult to ask people you don't know well to log into their router and make changes
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HIP 42 discussion from last night now live on The Hotspot's YT channel and all podcast platforms! https://youtu.be/CzrNzJ3gKXQ
rawrmaan pinned a message to this channel. 01/11/2022 9:38 PM
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Cryptonite
Will this HIP stop earnings for relayed hotspots? The majority of mine are relayed. It's a bit difficult to ask people you don't know well to log into their router and make changes
Do they send out beacons? Do they have a witness list? If they have witnesses, they can witness. If they can't beacon and have no witnesses, are they contributing to the growth and health of the network?
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Carl-bot BOT 01/11/2022 10:05 PM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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Linking witnesses to beacons is not necessarily a bad thing, but should be incentivized instead of penalizing those hotspots with a high witnesses to beacon ration. Some of us who deploy in remote and mountainous areas due so at a very large investment and longer ROI than others with a simple rooftop install. These types of installs have a high witness to beacon ratio, given the good line of site from those altitudes. We always try to ensure we have static IPs and ports opened to be able to beacon. On some sites, this can be done with a solid fiber connection, static IP and good router to open ports. But on other remote sites, cellular backhaul has to be used and it’s CGNAT is not always possible, resulting in a relayed hotspot. Depending on which hotspot carriers the traffic on the network, sometimes these hotspots beacon and sometimes they don’t. But it’s not from a lack of trying. So is it write to penalize those of us that provide true additional coverage in areas where others won’t/can’t? our hotspots are providing beneficial coverage for the network and, generally, produce good HNT /day. However, that higher HNT/day revenue is also needed to pay the considerable larger deployment costs (cabinets, solar power, batteries, small towers to get over tree lines, etc..etc). I think HIP 42 invites healthy discussions, but voting in favor of it is also a slippery slope.
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Anthonyra
For one, I’d be writing this code which is why it’s called a temperature check. So that core devs won’t be distracted from the light hotspot development that is the fix to those concerns. Question now is, what it intends to do is worth me coding it..
Awesome, thanks for the initiative
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Anthonyra
But I’d rather not wait 5 months for light hotspots to find out that this HIP is needed (another round of witness repeating) and then take 3 months to release the code
Hear hear. There are new gaming/cheating miners popping up every day. It's definitely not "too early"
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Anthonyra
I'll need to poke around more for sure also..
If not done already. I would link the tools in the hip or in the helium vote description so people can test it before they vote. I think most people will think they are affected but they are not. (edited)
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Guys, question... I'm checking my hotspots if it's effected by HIP-42. So for it says FALSE. But I see two values: 5-day Receipt Limit, and Witness Limit Cap... which one is the max after HIP-42 gets approved?
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I read the HIP, checked the various hotspots that were provided. I really struggle to understand what benefit this brings to the network. Also, we already have the 'chance' factor introduced. Where previously the 25 fastest responders got the witness 'reward', it's now by chance. By introducing this witness limit, is it based PRE chance of POST...meaning, will the system first determine out of the (let's say) 100 responders who's not at their max yet? Or is it first the chance, THEN decide if you're a witness that's not exceeded the max yet? Another question... Getting challenged to send out a beacon is purely chance. Sure 'on average' you should have 4 / day, but we all know that's not the case. What if I beacon, challenger is relayed and I get zero witnesses for my beacon. That means my witness limit is also getting lower that day? Really don't get this one...
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basically makes the whole earning system a lottery
05:09
you send many beacons you get much hnt
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VelocityJohn 01/12/2022 5:25 AM
Not able to sign into the tool, it says an administrator must make me an account. And I dont really want to sign in to something with my gmail account. Theres not a way to sign up? Not used it before and not sure if others are having the same sort of issues. Should probably make it easy for people to get the information they need to make a decision, or they will just vote no to what sounds like a big change to the network.
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Lee
If not done already. I would link the tools in the hip or in the helium vote description so people can test it before they vote. I think most people will think they are affected but they are not. (edited)
The tools are linked in the HIP
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Checkkill
I read the HIP, checked the various hotspots that were provided. I really struggle to understand what benefit this brings to the network. Also, we already have the 'chance' factor introduced. Where previously the 25 fastest responders got the witness 'reward', it's now by chance. By introducing this witness limit, is it based PRE chance of POST...meaning, will the system first determine out of the (let's say) 100 responders who's not at their max yet? Or is it first the chance, THEN decide if you're a witness that's not exceeded the max yet? Another question... Getting challenged to send out a beacon is purely chance. Sure 'on average' you should have 4 / day, but we all know that's not the case. What if I beacon, challenger is relayed and I get zero witnesses for my beacon. That means my witness limit is also getting lower that day? Really don't get this one...
Read the HIP again and look at the Edge Case Concerns part. There’s too methods suggest for 0 wits lists that could be caused for various reasons.
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VelocityJohn
Not able to sign into the tool, it says an administrator must make me an account. And I dont really want to sign in to something with my gmail account. Theres not a way to sign up? Not used it before and not sure if others are having the same sort of issues. Should probably make it easy for people to get the information they need to make a decision, or they will just vote no to what sounds like a big change to the network.
DeWi is aware of that limitation set on their ETL and is looking into make access easier. But it does only work with only gmail.com emails at the moment.
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owner this hs is angry for you Anthony - Creamy latte raccoon - affected without reason (edited)
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HIP42 for me is a no atm. Too many hotspots in relayed state and too much "luck" based. I agree with the idea but, for me, in the actual state isn't feasible.
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Anthonyra
Read the HIP again and look at the Edge Case Concerns part. There’s too methods suggest for 0 wits lists that could be caused for various reasons.
Thanks for replying! Would it be possible to add some examples to the HIP? Like what happens to your witnesses if you don't beacon for 4 days?
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beechball_45424 01/12/2022 7:09 AM
Would this HIP not be easier to understand and implement if we just went to No rewards for relayed miners?
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VelocityJohn
Not able to sign into the tool, it says an administrator must make me an account. And I dont really want to sign in to something with my gmail account. Theres not a way to sign up? Not used it before and not sure if others are having the same sort of issues. Should probably make it easy for people to get the information they need to make a decision, or they will just vote no to what sounds like a big change to the network.
create a dummy gmail account...
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beechball_45424
Would this HIP not be easier to understand and implement if we just went to No rewards for relayed miners?
This is not about relayed miners. And after light hotspots. the relayed concept will be a thing of the past anyway (edited)
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Checkkill
create a dummy gmail account...
VelocityJohn 01/12/2022 7:24 AM
Tried that, thats where it said it would require an administrator to make an account.
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ricopt5
This is not about relayed miners. And after light hotspots. the relayed concept will be a thing of the past anyway (edited)
beechball_45424 01/12/2022 7:24 AM
I know it isn’t specifically about relayed miners but it is about beacon to witness ratios. The majority of poor setups and gamers are relayed. Gamers make their profits off witnessing themselves with spoofed locations and 1.00 rewards scale. When someone has 20 hotspots in their basement all relayed and witnessing themselves it is gaming the system. Most of these guys are relayed.
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VelocityJohn
Tried that, thats where it said it would require an administrator to make an account.
It can't be a google workspace account. It needs to be a gmail.com one.. I know it's annoying but something out of my control sorry...
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Anthonyra
It can't be a google workspace account. It needs to be a gmail.com one.. I know it's annoying but something out of my control sorry...
VelocityJohn 01/12/2022 7:34 AM
Hi, not sure what the difference is, workspace account? I went for it with my gmail.com account that Ive had for years, then made a fake one also gmail.com. Neither worked it said the password didnt match the account. But they both did I tested the passwords again. Im not the only person with this problem as I scrolled up for several minutes earlier and looked around in other places to try to find an answer. I dont think you will get the answer you want in the vote this time around of there isnt an easy way for people to check if they may see an issue sorry. Thanks for replying anyway.
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Is anyone else getting a consistent error when trying to vote through the app for the temp check?
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Lango2013
Is anyone else getting a consistent error when trying to vote through the app for the temp check?
I haven't heard but with the two other votes going right now... the server might be having a hard time? What errors are you getting?
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Anthonyra
I haven't heard but with the two other votes going right now... the server might be having a hard time? What errors are you getting?
“There was an error submitting this transaction, please try again later”
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Lango2013
“There was an error submitting this transaction, please try again later”
I just got that as well for the denylist vote... the API must be swamped right now (edited)
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shadowmeree
There needs to be a recognition that some of us are constrained to very suboptimal environments where the only thing to do is mount the antenna on the balcony/window and hope for the best. I'm in a major city filled with high rise buildings that absolutely mess up RF. Many hotspots that don't have the benefit of being on high floors barely get any witnesses. My own ratio of witnessed to witnesses is like 3+ to 1 (highly variable if I get 2, 3 or 4 witnesses that week, maybe 5 occasionally), and just randomly clicking on hotspots around me tells a similar story. This HIP, in conjunction with the ongoing EIRP limits, will absolutely neuter earnings for us except those lucky enough to be staying on high floors
I'll be honest, I don't agree with this. IMO you aren't owed rewards because you bought a hotspot and put it in your window. Some people are lucky and live in good locations (which may or may not stay "good" depending on neighbors). Others do not. If you buy a hotspot you may have to work quite a bit to get good rewards. It's up to each of us to decide if that work is worth the effort. Also, some locations are good, then turn "bad" or vice versa. It's a growing changing thing. (edited)
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krby
I'll be honest, I don't agree with this. IMO you aren't owed rewards because you bought a hotspot and put it in your window. Some people are lucky and live in good locations (which may or may not stay "good" depending on neighbors). Others do not. If you buy a hotspot you may have to work quite a bit to get good rewards. It's up to each of us to decide if that work is worth the effort. Also, some locations are good, then turn "bad" or vice versa. It's a growing changing thing. (edited)
I agree. I worked very hard and spent $$$ to get one of my antennas on a 60’ tower. But because every person living in a row home, in every home on the block thinks their going to get rich off helium, my rewards should suffer? People buying hotspots and putting them in sub optimal locations does not help coverage. I’m providing coverage to a large rural area with few hotspots. Some times my hotspots don’t beacon for 3-4 days.
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jdizzle
I agree. I worked very hard and spent $$$ to get one of my antennas on a 60’ tower. But because every person living in a row home, in every home on the block thinks their going to get rich off helium, my rewards should suffer? People buying hotspots and putting them in sub optimal locations does not help coverage. I’m providing coverage to a large rural area with few hotspots. Some times my hotspots don’t beacon for 3-4 days.
Well, I also don't think you get to "own" a spot because you came in early or put more effort in. If the coverage you provide is unique, you'll get rewarded. You'll witness more than the rowhouse folks. When data starts flowing, you'll be in a position to see more of it than others. By design, it's a (sort of) decentralized network with emergent behavior. It's chaotic and often changing. That's the nature of it. We have to adapt. I've moved hotspots that are no longer worth it because coverage was provided by 15 other people now.
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krby
Well, I also don't think you get to "own" a spot because you came in early or put more effort in. If the coverage you provide is unique, you'll get rewarded. You'll witness more than the rowhouse folks. When data starts flowing, you'll be in a position to see more of it than others. By design, it's a (sort of) decentralized network with emergent behavior. It's chaotic and often changing. That's the nature of it. We have to adapt. I've moved hotspots that are no longer worth it because coverage was provided by 15 other people now.
That’s the thing though, I think too many people are jumping into this without research or through hosting companies and expecting to earn a living off it when but sticking it in their window.
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krby
I'll be honest, I don't agree with this. IMO you aren't owed rewards because you bought a hotspot and put it in your window. Some people are lucky and live in good locations (which may or may not stay "good" depending on neighbors). Others do not. If you buy a hotspot you may have to work quite a bit to get good rewards. It's up to each of us to decide if that work is worth the effort. Also, some locations are good, then turn "bad" or vice versa. It's a growing changing thing. (edited)
Which is fine, and those providing less useful coverage already earn low rewards. So you'll have to decide if there's a point to this HIP further penalising such hotspots. Not everyone has an option of redeploying a hotspot to a suburb. In my particular case I don't even have a suburb in my country.
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Then maybe Helium should change the message that appears when you click on your Transmit Scale: "Low Transmit scale does not mean your Hotspot earnings will be low. Make sure you have a great setup so you can witness Hotspots with 1.0 Transmit scales." HIP42 changes the definition of "great setup"...
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shadowmeree
Which is fine, and those providing less useful coverage already earn low rewards. So you'll have to decide if there's a point to this HIP further penalising such hotspots. Not everyone has an option of redeploying a hotspot to a suburb. In my particular case I don't even have a suburb in my country.
Ya, I've had trouble finding good homes for a couple. Ended up shipping one to a friend in Canada (I'm in the US so still same frequency)
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Most worse thing to me is lie and not being transparent - such things like that would be a wrong community, business, friendship etc I can just say - people's network and therefore they should make the main decisions before and not after!
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I didn’t pay attention to this hip earlier, have a couple of questions: what is the hard cap for number of witness? If one hotspot has no beacon for the last 4 days but has 100 witness , what is the effect?
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richard Z
I didn’t pay attention to this hip earlier, have a couple of questions: what is the hard cap for number of witness? If one hotspot has no beacon for the last 4 days but has 100 witness , what is the effect?
Beacons build the wits list.. if it didn't beacon for 4 days but its wits list is still 100 it'll have a daily cap of 160 witness receipts per day. If they haven't beaconed for 4 days and their wits list drops to 0 then there's two options suggested in the HIP under Edge Case concerns. One being a test beacon and the other is 24 witness receipts being the lowest you can go even with 0 wits list
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Anthonyra
Beacons build the wits list.. if it didn't beacon for 4 days but its wits list is still 100 it'll have a daily cap of 160 witness receipts per day. If they haven't beaconed for 4 days and their wits list drops to 0 then there's two options suggested in the HIP under Edge Case concerns. One being a test beacon and the other is 24 witness receipts being the lowest you can go even with 0 wits list
The witness list is maxed at 18 , one of my hotspots has not send beacon for 4 days, but witnessed beacons about 100 times/Day
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Carl-bot BOT 01/12/2022 1:58 PM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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richard Z
The witness list is maxed at 18 , one of my hotspots has not send beacon for 4 days, but witnessed beacons about 100 times/Day
Per beacon yes it's capped at 18. But your wits list is capable of getting up to 360 based on IP bloom filter limitations on challenger targeting
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Well, so what is the proposed ratio for beacon/witness? Honestly this is confusing
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The ratio is for every unique witness of a beacon you're able to claim 8 witness receipts however it's averaged over a 5 day rolling period. If you wits list is 100 you'd simply need to do 100 * 8 / 5 = 160 witness receipts per day. If you wits list was 10, 10 * 8 / 5 = 16 per day.
14:06
The number on explorer to the left of "witnesses" isn't the count of witness receipts but all challenge related transactions over 5 days fwiw (edited)
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Anthonyra
The ratio is for every unique witness of a beacon you're able to claim 8 witness receipts however it's averaged over a 5 day rolling period. If you wits list is 100 you'd simply need to do 100 * 8 / 5 = 160 witness receipts per day. If you wits list was 10, 10 * 8 / 5 = 16 per day.
Sounds like even though there is no sent beacon for last five days, the hotspot can still have 160 valid witness receipts , is it correct? (edited)
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Carl-bot BOT 01/12/2022 2:26 PM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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richard Z
Sounds like even though there is no sent beacon for last five days, the hotspot can still have 160 valid witness receipts , is it correct? (edited)
It all depends on your witness list count
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Man Im working all day everyday and came back to this bomb from reddit
14:29
Pretty tough to filter whats going on
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Anthonyra
It all depends on your witness list count
Sorry I am still confused. Please tell me whether no beacon for 5 days affect the above calculation
14:35
Are those 160 witness receipts still valid
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I have concerns about this proposal. I live right on the edge of a more populated area. To my southeast is a sparsely populated rural area with fewer hotspots that have poor connectivity to the network. I have invested in upgrading my equipment in an attempt to better reach those hotspots (and therefore extend the reach of the network). But because to my northwest is a populated area, I see a lot of “cheap” beacons that earn very little because I am only 1 of 17 or 18 witnesses. Witnesses to my southeast are much less frequent, but they earn a lot more because I’m only one of a couple of witnesses, or even the only witness. If I understand this proposal, that means my beacon limit will get filled up with witnessing cheap beacons, and I won’t get rewarded at all for my efforts to extend the network into new areas. Am I wrong?
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richard Z
Well, so what is the proposed ratio for beacon/witness? Honestly this is confusing
I’m amazed the vote is passing with the current margin given how convoluted it is.
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MasterChile 01/12/2022 3:47 PM
Could someone help me figure out please why my hotspot is being affected by the HIP-42? I ran this hotspot checker and my SenseCap is affected: https://etl.dewi.org/auth/login?redirect=%2Fquestion%2F461-poc-witness-scaling-hip-42 I have no clue about this, please help me understand. Miner: Slow Beige Wolf (edited)
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Is this proposal a good thing?
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NMariusG
Is this proposal a good thing?
If you have an hour, you can listen to the discussion about it here on the podcast (hosted by Anthonyra): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzrNzJ3gKXQ
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cheezedawg
If you have an hour, you can listen to the discussion about it here on the podcast (hosted by Anthonyra): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzrNzJ3gKXQ
beechball_45424 01/12/2022 5:33 PM
Seems like a lot more people will be punished besides the gamers. If even one legit person is harmed by this proposal it should be down voted. Most seem to be selfish and want the rewards from gamers even if others get hurt during the process.
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beechball_45424
Seems like a lot more people will be punished besides the gamers. If even one legit person is harmed by this proposal it should be down voted. Most seem to be selfish and want the rewards from gamers even if others get hurt during the process.
Possibly. I see the motivations, but I don't particularly like the proposal.
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Mr_Fizzer
If a tower setup makes the amount some of these high earners does everyone would be doing it
i wouldnt be doing it cuz its not accessible, a pain when something goes wrong with the miner up there. but yea i get what ur saying
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beechball_45424
Seems like a lot more people will be punished besides the gamers. If even one legit person is harmed by this proposal it should be down voted. Most seem to be selfish and want the rewards from gamers even if others get hurt during the process.
yea i agree
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NMariusG
Is this proposal a good thing?
MasterChile 01/12/2022 6:50 PM
Nope
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I'm effed if this passes... I've probably spent over a grand trying different antenna setups since July, and finally have an ideal set up at my house getting it as high as possible and using POE for power up to the enclosure at max height. I am in a 1.0 area with minimal density, and I am providing good coverage for the network. Heck, I even hired someone to install it as I couldn't safely get it up that high on my own. I will be impacted if this goes through per the website that lets you see if you would be impacted: https://etl.dewi.org/question/461-poc-witness-scaling-hip-42 This is blatant targeting of people earning more because they put time, effort, and money into optimizing their setup. This doesn't do anything to combat the spoofers who set up 50 hotspots all perfectly spaced in the middle of no where... DO NOT VOTE FOR THIS! This is BS! (edited)
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Why would a legit setup not beacon?
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Dogweather
Why would a legit setup not beacon?
Because that's an random process, not controlled by your miner, regardless of how well setup it is.
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Even if you beacon there's all sorts of reasons you're not witnessed. This basically penalises anyone that doesn't belong to a pretty narrow definition of "optimal set-up" I'm pretty sure it'll hurt more legit hotspots than gamers (edited)
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I, for example, haven't beaconed in 24h, everything looks and works great, setup wise. What am I supposed to do when this is going to be implemented? I'll tell you what! I'm gonna take the whole rig down and use the hotspot as a door stopper - because it's gonna be more useful that way, at least not using any energy 🤷
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BadTrader
I'm effed if this passes... I've probably spent over a grand trying different antenna setups since July, and finally have an ideal set up at my house getting it as high as possible and using POE for power up to the enclosure at max height. I am in a 1.0 area with minimal density, and I am providing good coverage for the network. Heck, I even hired someone to install it as I couldn't safely get it up that high on my own. I will be impacted if this goes through per the website that lets you see if you would be impacted: https://etl.dewi.org/question/461-poc-witness-scaling-hip-42 This is blatant targeting of people earning more because they put time, effort, and money into optimizing their setup. This doesn't do anything to combat the spoofers who set up 50 hotspots all perfectly spaced in the middle of no where... DO NOT VOTE FOR THIS! This is BS! (edited)
Can you give us a link to the hip-42 report for your hotspot? I'd like to independently verify this.
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odo13tz
I, for example, haven't beaconed in 24h, everything looks and works great, setup wise. What am I supposed to do when this is going to be implemented? I'll tell you what! I'm gonna take the whole rig down and use the hotspot as a door stopper - because it's gonna be more useful that way, at least not using any energy 🤷
Test your hotspot with the simulation, I guarantee you you are not affected, if you’re legit that is (edited)
23:38
One of mine hasn’t beaconed for 2 days and earning average 0.8/day isn’t affected
23:38
So 🤷🏻‍♂️
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Mr_Fizzer
Test your hotspot with the simulation, I guarantee you you are not affected, if you’re legit that is (edited)
Oh, I am legit. Not risking 2 grand setup on some nonsense. Where can I test it?
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Mr_Fizzer
Test your hotspot with the simulation, I guarantee you you are not affected, if you’re legit that is (edited)
I think the concern ppl have is that even if they're legit and invested seriously in their setup, they're still be affected negatively. This HIP basically introduces two more "chance" factors: the amount of challenges you get and whether or not the challenger is relayed. I also read that ppl say, well this is targeting those who just put a miner in their window and think they'll earn some money. Although it's def a point that those hotspots don't contribute to the network as much as an outdoor setup, and those setups will most likely be affected by this HIP.... Helium DID approve those INDOOR hotspots... To introduce now something that basically means: although you bought a hotspot that we approved, we're gonna penalize you if you use it the way it was approved by us and sold to you.... I'm pretty sure this HIP wil go through though as most people think THEY are not affected and will start earning more, and it will hurt gamers only... (edited)
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odo13tz
Oh, I am legit. Not risking 2 grand setup on some nonsense. Where can I test it?
00:14
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Checkkill
I think the concern ppl have is that even if they're legit and invested seriously in their setup, they're still be affected negatively. This HIP basically introduces two more "chance" factors: the amount of challenges you get and whether or not the challenger is relayed. I also read that ppl say, well this is targeting those who just put a miner in their window and think they'll earn some money. Although it's def a point that those hotspots don't contribute to the network as much as an outdoor setup, and those setups will most likely be affected by this HIP.... Helium DID approve those INDOOR hotspots... To introduce now something that basically means: although you bought a hotspot that we approved, we're gonna penalize you if you use it the way it was approved by us and sold to you.... I'm pretty sure this HIP wil go through though as most people think THEY are not affected and will start earning more, and it will hurt gamers only... (edited)
Did you read the stuff said by the creator of this HIP? Or the documentation? I haven’t seen any proven legit setup that was falsely flagged by the simulation
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Mr_Fizzer
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Cheers mate! I'll check it now
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Mr_Fizzer
Did you read the stuff said by the creator of this HIP? Or the documentation? I haven’t seen any proven legit setup that was falsely flagged by the simulation
check the few in his HIP...there is a hotspot, very low earning, prob indoor miner, is affected. And yes I read everything and it's still difficult to understand how it will pan out in reality. Maybe I'm wrong, but whenever I ask questions or challenge things I get told to read the documentation but no answer to my concerns or questions.
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Checkkill
check the few in his HIP...there is a hotspot, very low earning, prob indoor miner, is affected. And yes I read everything and it's still difficult to understand how it will pan out in reality. Maybe I'm wrong, but whenever I ask questions or challenge things I get told to read the documentation but no answer to my concerns or questions.
@Anthonyra maybe you can answer his concerns
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I really think it would help to draw up some real life examples. For instance, if I understand correctly, the 'check' to see if you're hotspot is effected, it's a check on the CURRENT witness list. But that list is dynamic...what if I have no beacons for 4 days, and on day 5, 6 and 7 my challengers are relayed...meaning zero witnesses for 7 days. And yes, this has happened quite a few times... Will that mean my hotspot gets penalized?
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Carl-bot BOT 01/13/2022 12:23 AM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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NMariusG
Is this proposal a good thing?
Yes. The standstill of not doing anything against gamers is worse than potentially impacting some fair miners. As @Anthonyra stated many times, he is going to do his homework properly when writing the code. I trust his skills and good will
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zzeddd
Yes. The standstill of not doing anything against gamers is worse than potentially impacting some fair miners. As @Anthonyra stated many times, he is going to do his homework properly when writing the code. I trust his skills and good will
But this won't impact gamers at all??
00:26
or do I really miss the boat...
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It will impact the packet forward cheaters for sure. Who have 0 witnesses but 2000+ beacons
00:27
While earning 1+HNT/day
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zzeddd
It will impact the packet forward cheaters for sure. Who have 0 witnesses but 2000+ beacons
I'm completely unawair of this kind of gaming, thanks for pointing that out.
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Wait I'll get you some examples. My country NL and BE are full of it
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you mean the grid setups in Flevoland etc?
00:35
I mean more like this. Around the NL-Belgium border there's a group of miner hotspots that are non-stop beaconing with each other. 2700 beacons received, with a very low amount of witnesses. This is one of the best earning miners in the entire Helium network. All top earners are in 🇧🇪 or 🇳🇱 (edited)
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Checkkill
you mean the grid setups in Flevoland etc?
Flevoland and Zeeuws-Vlaanderen have strange grids indeed. The Zeeuws-Vlaanderen one is offline now
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Is this not beaconing because it is relayed or because they are cheating?
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I have never seen relayed blocking any beacons. I had some in relay and the beaconed well
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Either way, they need to fix their set up. But I am just curious if we know more than what is obvious.
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Well 1,8 HNT/day, why change the setup?
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Relaying is not a death knell for getting witnesses but it can happen for sure.
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zzeddd
Well 1,8 HNT/day, why change the setup?
Good point. Either way, they have no incentive to fix the set up. (edited)
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Holy shit, look at the tokens that are flowing through that wallet. To this wallet: https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/14G82jG7iMDenXwk7tbMZXYDeJSsk17uQg2iUoZvjufuFUUECBC (edited)
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https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112MR1TD4SGc9LKcpMdYaCJ9MKjQywgwkzrZQh1sbkuB69jKekSL 2,8 HNT/day. With 4dbi on 45m, sure. The height is nice, but 3600 beacons and the earnings are excessive
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zzeddd
https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112MR1TD4SGc9LKcpMdYaCJ9MKjQywgwkzrZQh1sbkuB69jKekSL 2,8 HNT/day. With 4dbi on 45m, sure. The height is nice, but 3600 beacons and the earnings are excessive
One of the hotsptos that is witnessing that one is not getting any witnesses itself; https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112XawpC5fABwyKmucZRG8L5w4kUBtKgXYv8fCJ8ed6Qd671G9e1/activity
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KeithR
Holy shit, look at the tokens that are flowing through that wallet. To this wallet: https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/14G82jG7iMDenXwk7tbMZXYDeJSsk17uQg2iUoZvjufuFUUECBC (edited)
Yup. Earning great. I suspect they do this trick: https://gitmetadata.com/repo/helium/packet_forwarder All you need is a wide floor on a high building. Then you can configure several miners on that location to non-stop beacin with each other. While dropping the pins randomly on the map
A LoRa packet forwarder is a program running on the host of a LoRa gateway that forwards RF packets receive by the concentrator to a server through a IP/UDP link, and emits RF packets that are sent by the server.
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zzeddd
I mean more like this. Around the NL-Belgium border there's a group of miner hotspots that are non-stop beaconing with each other. 2700 beacons received, with a very low amount of witnesses. This is one of the best earning miners in the entire Helium network. All top earners are in 🇧🇪 or 🇳🇱 (edited)
What's with 🇧🇪 or 🇳🇱 that makes them such destinations for this apparent cheating?
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875 HNT (or $30k) per month, with 20 hotspots 🤯
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zzeddd
I mean more like this. Around the NL-Belgium border there's a group of miner hotspots that are non-stop beaconing with each other. 2700 beacons received, with a very low amount of witnesses. This is one of the best earning miners in the entire Helium network. All top earners are in 🇧🇪 or 🇳🇱 (edited)
I checked his beacons for the last 5 days. He had only 5 beacons in 5-6 days of which 4 where relayed... does that do anything? not saying this isn't a cheater, it most likely is....
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Mr_Fizzer
Test your hotspot with the simulation, I guarantee you you are not affected, if you’re legit that is (edited)
You are smoking crack... It affects the people who have invested a lot of money setting up their hotspot for the best possible network coverage and earnings will get screwed by this.
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KeithR
What's with 🇧🇪 or 🇳🇱 that makes them such destinations for this apparent cheating?
Idk. I think someone just found the best ways for cheating / gaming, called some friends for locations and rolled it out
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zzeddd
875 HNT (or $30k) per month, with 20 hotspots 🤯
360,000 reasons to be an asshole and cheat for the year, no? (edited)
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Mr_Fizzer
Did you read the stuff said by the creator of this HIP? Or the documentation? I haven’t seen any proven legit setup that was falsely flagged by the simulation
I havea real hotspot with a lot invested in it.. I had @Deleted User install it for me...
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Dogweather
Can you give us a link to the hip-42 report for your hotspot? I'd like to independently verify this.
PMed it to you
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Yup. Meanwhile other Dutch or Belgium miners like me try to be happy with 0,2 or 0,3 per day, for good setups. Good setup example. Similar height and better antenna than the cheating examples. 480 beacons, 0,6 HNT https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112TbjomqbY7ptXRzEdvRGLMSHLgDR7ChKyZ9YEv9sqzzSdYzj8E
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zzeddd
Yup. Meanwhile other Dutch or Belgium miners like me try to be happy with 0,2 or 0,3 per day, for good setups. Good setup example. Similar height and better antenna than the cheating examples. 480 beacons, 0,6 HNT https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112TbjomqbY7ptXRzEdvRGLMSHLgDR7ChKyZ9YEv9sqzzSdYzj8E
Doing great! On top of a building? Or do you live in a high-rise? (edited)
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zzeddd
Yes. The standstill of not doing anything against gamers is worse than potentially impacting some fair miners. As @Anthonyra stated many times, he is going to do his homework properly when writing the code. I trust his skills and good will
You feel that way becuase you haven't invested as much as some of us in the antenna set ups. I need to make a lot more HNT to make up for what I have invested... I historically barely make an HNT a day after all money sepnt
00:50
HIP-42 will hurt the people who have invested a lot of money in their antenna setup- and not really do anything to stop the spoofers
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Speaking of relaying being the issue; the coding for this HIP isn't likely to be done in time to beat light hotspots. So if that is the issue, it will go away and their witness list will increase and they will be fine.
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Carl-bot BOT 01/13/2022 12:51 AM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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All I know is this HIP is going eff me and everyone like me that invested money in the antenna set up. This HIP is going to steal from the people who are helping expand the network. It is BS and NOT the solution! It needs to get rejected and the creator needs to go back to the drawing board. It SHOULD NOT HURT the people who invested money in their antenna set up!
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01:19
It should not be implemented... Period.
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01:19
It sucks! And should be rejected
01:20
But the lemmings that are window sill jockeys are voting for it...
01:23
The HIP is written in unclear jibberish and doesn't do anything other than target hotspots that earn more than others.... It doesn't weed out the legit hotspots like mine from the gamers and spoofers.
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VOTE AGAINST WITNESS/BEACON RATIO you will witness less beacons per day - use this formula to calculate 1.6 X (total witness in 5 days)
02:18
it's not sure that your HS will send 4 beacons per day
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My bobcat did send a becon in the last 2 days
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this is a new way for helium to pay less users who invested in a good antenna setup
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Someday one of this HIP'S can delay/stop the progress of Helium network Are many problems with Network and Hardware still Let's fix them first
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shadowmeree 01/13/2022 2:29 AM
Guys it's not about whether you invested in a good set up or not - that should be beside the point - it's about how this penalises based on a beaconing algorithm that is essentially based on chance. If you're mainly concerned with gamers I don't know why the ratio is so conservative
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do you send 4 beacons regurarly every day? i don't think so
02:36
then if you witness more than you send....your activity can be reduced (the witnesses you recive)
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BadTrader
All I know is this HIP is going eff me and everyone like me that invested money in the antenna set up. This HIP is going to steal from the people who are helping expand the network. It is BS and NOT the solution! It needs to get rejected and the creator needs to go back to the drawing board. It SHOULD NOT HURT the people who invested money in their antenna set up!
Why?
03:28
Lots of anti-42 people here expect everyone to take their claims at face value. I’m skeptical. I don’t know who you are. Tell us “why” or “because” to be more persuasive.
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03:30
I listened to the HIP 42 podcast and read the old discussion on it. It sounds reasonable to me because it raises the importance of beaconing in the payoff to match its importance to the network.
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ok...the problem is...do you always send 4 beacons per day? there is a formula to calculate if you will be affected or not
05:01
i'm sure that the quality of my beacons is good but....if the network do not choose me for the challenge....the witness that i can recive get lower
05:02
Max Daily Witness Receipt Limit witness_limit_cap = witness_list * (blocks_per_day / poc_challenge_interval) / witness_list_bucket_size * compensation_factor witness_limit_cap = 360 * (1440 / 360) / 5 * 2 witness_limit_cap = 576
05:03
witness_list is "total witness within past five days" on the explorer
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swa1984
ok...the problem is...do you always send 4 beacons per day? there is a formula to calculate if you will be affected or not
Please re-read the HIP grab a cup of coffee take it slow and pay close attention to the Edge Case Concerns section when it specifically talks about when you have a 0 wits lists and the two suggested methods on how to counter that. I’m all for the first method test beacons. The latter was a suggestion from the community.
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beechball_45424 01/13/2022 5:39 AM
I typically get 1-2 beacons as day. Never more that 2. Sometimes I get 1 beacon in 3 days. Is this on par with the rest of you?
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beechball_45424
I typically get 1-2 beacons as day. Never more that 2. Sometimes I get 1 beacon in 3 days. Is this on par with the rest of you?
The average right now is 2.4 across the entire network and the compensation factor is based off of this
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Anthonyra
Please re-read the HIP grab a cup of coffee take it slow and pay close attention to the Edge Case Concerns section when it specifically talks about when you have a 0 wits lists and the two suggested methods on how to counter that. I’m all for the first method test beacons. The latter was a suggestion from the community.
i have 32 witnesses because i send few beacons....under average ....but i "listen" 427 beacons per week
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swa1984
i have 32 witnesses because i send few beacons....under average ....but i "listen" 427 beacons per week
Is that 427 beacons number from explorer?
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Sadly that’s not the number of witness receipts it gets over 5 days. It’s the total number of beacons and witnesses of that hotspot over 7 days. Which is the main reason why I built the tool to check peoples setups (edited)
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Anthonyra
The average right now is 2.4 across the entire network and the compensation factor is based off of this
beechball_45424 01/13/2022 5:47 AM
So would it be fair to say that because I am under the average beacons sent this HIP would hurt me?
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BadTrader
You feel that way becuase you haven't invested as much as some of us in the antenna set ups. I need to make a lot more HNT to make up for what I have invested... I historically barely make an HNT a day after all money sepnt
Hahaha. I have done more in (legal) antenna set ups than 95% of the network. You make fact-less statements. I'm sorry you make few HNT. In that case I would not fear this hip at all
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KeithR
Doing great! On top of a building? Or do you live in a high-rise? (edited)
It's a friend's miner. Apartment building
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Anthonyra
Sadly that’s not the number of witness receipts it gets over 5 days. It’s the total number of beacons and witnesses of that hotspot over 7 days. Which is the main reason why I built the tool to check peoples setups (edited)
i know it's 7 days....i' ve used it and i calculated with the formula so...my hotspot is affected
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swa1984
i know it's 7 days....i' ve used it and i calculated with the formula so...my hotspot is affected
It’s not the same data if anything you’d need to ratio down to 5 days and subtract your beacons from it over that timeframe also (edited)
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KeithR
Speaking of relaying being the issue; the coding for this HIP isn't likely to be done in time to beat light hotspots. So if that is the issue, it will go away and their witness list will increase and they will be fine.
Just curious, as Im no light hotspot expert. How will the light hotspots solve gaming/cheating problems?
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zzeddd
Just curious, as Im no light hotspot expert. How will the light hotspots solve gaming/cheating problems?
It won’t help against gaming or cheating. It will remove the p2p issues making the network more stable (jury still out on how much better but should be a lot)
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Thanks. So it's just solving hardware and connection problems
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Anthonyra
The average right now is 2.4 across the entire network and the compensation factor is based off of this
Sounds good. See guys, your worries about being impacted, are taken into account. I don't understand the no's and baseless claims tbh. BadTrader showing bad habits
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beechball_45424 01/13/2022 5:55 AM
This HIP seems to leave you earnings up to chance based on some random beacons being sent and it doesn't incentive good setups. I'm sure I am missing something but I want my earnings to come from a great setup instead of praying that I send 4 beacons a day. We lose control of our earnings this way.
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Anthonyra
It’s not the same data if anything you’d need to ratio down to 5 days and subtract your beacons from it over that timeframe also (edited)
witness list 32. witness receipt262. 5 days limit 256. witness limit cap 50. affected by hip 42. true (edited)
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Carl-bot BOT 01/13/2022 5:57 AM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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beechball_45424
This HIP seems to leave you earnings up to chance based on some random beacons being sent and it doesn't incentive good setups. I'm sure I am missing something but I want my earnings to come from a great setup instead of praying that I send 4 beacons a day. We lose control of our earnings this way.
It tries to make it less about chance for what it's worth. The other option is to make it completely up to chance and change the current reward bucket structure which is Beacons: 5% Witnesses 20% to something more along the lines of Beacons: 10% Witnesses: 15% or even Beacons: 15% Witnesses 15%. Then there's no 5 day bucket to buffer you, theres also no compensation factor chain variable that can be adjusted depending on network performance. There's simply, did you beacon or did you not
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swa1984
witness list 32. witness receipt262. 5 days limit 256. witness limit cap 50. affected by hip 42. true (edited)
You're over the proposed witness receipt cap by 6... Less then 2 per day. With current reward units of witnesses that'd be 0.01 HNT/5days. It does appear that you'll be affected but you're on the edge of a setup I'd consider to be "optimal" for PoC. If you still think that the benefits that this will provide across the network is not worth the little it'll affect you... I ask you to please vote no and thank you for the consideration (edited)
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BadTrader
The HIP is written in unclear jibberish and doesn't do anything other than target hotspots that earn more than others.... It doesn't weed out the legit hotspots like mine from the gamers and spoofers.
Bro I have 6 setups on 50m+ high cell towers and roof towers all of them are top 20 and of one them is #1 in my city of 700 hotspots. And they’re not affected, YOURE NOT the only one who invested time and money in this (edited)
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Anthonyra
You're over the proposed witness receipt cap by 6... Less then 2 per day. With current reward units of witnesses that'd be 0.01 HNT/5days. It does appear that you'll be affected but you're on the edge of a setup I'd consider to be "optimal" for PoC. If you still think that the benefits that this will provide across the network is not worth the little it'll affect you... I ask you to please vote no and thank you for the consideration (edited)
the problem is LESS...nice tricks helium
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swa1984
the problem is LESS...nice tricks helium
I don't work for Helium. I'm a community member that is concerned of the overall health of the Network based on what I'm seeing while data diving. Thank you for your feedback
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swa1984
the problem is LESS...nice tricks helium
No one is playing tricks and he isn’t working for helium
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Anthonyra
You're over the proposed witness receipt cap by 6... Less then 2 per day. With current reward units of witnesses that'd be 0.01 HNT/5days. It does appear that you'll be affected but you're on the edge of a setup I'd consider to be "optimal" for PoC. If you still think that the benefits that this will provide across the network is not worth the little it'll affect you... I ask you to please vote no and thank you for the consideration (edited)
Thanks for being an active member here and the proposal. I did vote no yesterday since I have hard time to fully understand the calculation. I have trouble to use the tool you provided, it won’t log me in with my Google account. The other reason I am not for the HIP as of yesterday is I am not 100% confident that this change will go well with the network, we have a lot of bad experience with past problems, bobcat in particular has a lot of issues with beaconing, the one I used as an example yesterday have not sent beacons for the last five days, it does Challenged Beaconer, and able to witness, so that one as I understand now won’t get rewards. I have over 50 miners, only 5 bobcats, so no big impact to me. Too many things going on theses days, the confidence level is not that high anymore. Pray for the stability of the network
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07:43
I am a bit neutral as of today.
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richard Z
Thanks for being an active member here and the proposal. I did vote no yesterday since I have hard time to fully understand the calculation. I have trouble to use the tool you provided, it won’t log me in with my Google account. The other reason I am not for the HIP as of yesterday is I am not 100% confident that this change will go well with the network, we have a lot of bad experience with past problems, bobcat in particular has a lot of issues with beaconing, the one I used as an example yesterday have not sent beacons for the last five days, it does Challenged Beaconer, and able to witness, so that one as I understand now won’t get rewards. I have over 50 miners, only 5 bobcats, so no big impact to me. Too many things going on theses days, the confidence level is not that high anymore. Pray for the stability of the network
I apologize about the accessibility of the tool... I'm not in control of that. The quick napkin math is your wits list * 8 / 5 for your daily cap.. however, if you haven't beaconed in 5 days your list is most likely 0. With that being said, I hope to implement test beacons in these situations since the CG can verify you haven't had a "successfull" beacon in that amount of time.. The rough idea I have on how a test beacon would work is here.. I should really add it to the HIP for clarification moving forward however the core devs could tell me this isn't feasible or desirable based on network performance concerns. https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/897221256607301703/930293866605740093 (edited)
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Anthonyra
I apologize about the accessibility of the tool... I'm not in control of that. The quick napkin math is your wits list * 8 / 5 for your daily cap.. however, if you haven't beaconed in 5 days your list is most likely 0. With that being said, I hope to implement test beacons in these situations since the CG can verify you haven't had a "successfull" beacon in that amount of time.. The rough idea I have on how a test beacon would work is here.. I should really add it to the HIP for clarification moving forward however the core devs could tell me this isn't feasible or desirable based on network performance concerns. https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/897221256607301703/930293866605740093 (edited)
Thanks. The other scenario for you to consider: we have some issues with Rak miners in the last couple of months, basically they dropped thousands of blocks for no reason or because of the update, it will take maybe 5 days for them to catch up, in this case, these miners will have 0 witness list I assume, so even though they have caught up and started witnessing, they probably won’t earn anything in a couple days with your formula (edited)
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Carl-bot BOT 01/13/2022 7:55 AM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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richard Z
Thanks. The other scenario for you to consider: we have some issues with Rak miners in the last couple of months, basically they dropped thousands of blocks for no reason or because of the update, it will take maybe 5 days for them to catch up, in this case, these miners will have 0 witness list I assume, so even though they have caught up and started witnessing, they probably won’t earn anything in a couple days with your formula (edited)
I'll need to check again, but I'm pretty sure that while syncing hotspots can't claim witnesses.. so during sync situations there's 0 rewards to begin with.. That sync issue will also be removed with light hotspots for they would request state from a validator who has the blockchain (edited)
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Anthonyra
I'll need to check again, but I'm pretty sure that while syncing hotspots can't claim witnesses.. so during sync situations there's 0 rewards to begin with.. That sync issue will also be removed with light hotspots for they would request state from a validator who has the blockchain (edited)
What I am saying is after 5 days they have synced with the network, and started witnessing , bad luck or not they have not sent beacons the first day or two, in that case, with your formula, they still earn nothing for that one or two days, even though they are perfectly fine
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richard Z
What I am saying is after 5 days they have synced with the network, and started witnessing , bad luck or not they have not sent beacons the first day or two, in that case, with your formula, they still earn nothing for that one or two days, even though they are perfectly fine
Out of the sync state, I'd imagine the test beacon would be triggered
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FiatCollector 01/13/2022 8:22 AM
when will we find out if this passed or not? (edited)
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FiatCollector
when will we find out if this passed or not? (edited)
Once this current vote is done, it'll give me the green light to start changing this HIP to code. There will be another vote later once code is completed and reviewed. To determine implementation timeframe, and to solidify any chain variables
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How may i check if my hotspot is affected or no?
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FiatCollector 01/13/2022 8:23 AM
so this wont actually be coded within 24 hours if passed...more likely implemented in a few weeks time?
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FiatCollector
so this wont actually be coded within 24 hours if passed...more likely implemented in a few weeks time?
Probably more in the months timeframe. The core devs will be busy with light hotspots and I'll be at the mercy for review and mentorship time... it won't happen quickly.. plus true activation is locked behind another vote
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FiatCollector 01/13/2022 8:25 AM
got it...ty (edited)
08:26
when will all hotspots become lightspots?
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Best I can guess.... #soon
08:27
They're currently being tested on testnet
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FiatCollector 01/13/2022 8:33 AM
cool...cuz these memory card issues are less than desired
08:33
where can we find the latest snapshot to use for flashing sd cards?
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FiatCollector
where can we find the latest snapshot to use for flashing sd cards?
I haven't had to do that for a hot minute, #hotspot-help might be a better place to ask about that
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Anthonyra
I haven't had to do that for a hot minute, #hotspot-help might be a better place to ask about that
FiatCollector 01/13/2022 8:37 AM
will try there..ty
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captainhindsight 01/13/2022 8:38 AM
I've read the whole thing again and I cannot see who it benefits, apart from Helium.
08:39
Unless I'm missing something really fundamental, it PRETENDS to be shifting rewards away from nodes which witness far more than they beacon - but it isn't shifting those rewards TO anyone. Nobody can beacon more than four times a day. This HIP pretends it's robbing rich to pay the poor - and combatting spoofers - and it's actually doing neither
helium 1
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cheezedawg
I’m amazed the vote is passing with the current margin given how convoluted it is.
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 8:42 AM
It's not just convoluted - it's intentionally deceptive
helium 2
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Great Job with this! So happy to see the work being done to fix this! Just wish it could be implemented today!
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captainhindsight
I've read the whole thing again and I cannot see who it benefits, apart from Helium.
They know how many times a hotspot should beacon. From what I understand is as long as your beaconing once or twice a day and it’s getting witnessed you won’t be effected. Only way you might be effected is if your witnessing 100s of hotspots everyday and only beconing once or beaconing and it’s not getting witnessed. I think the ratio there looking at is 70 percent so for every beacon you successfully complete you get like 8 witnesses
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Anthonyra
I'll need to check again, but I'm pretty sure that while syncing hotspots can't claim witnesses.. so during sync situations there's 0 rewards to begin with.. That sync issue will also be removed with light hotspots for they would request state from a validator who has the blockchain (edited)
Would you be open for help adding explanatory examples to the HIP? I think there’s a lot of info that doesn’t come through in the official document.
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08:52
I can also help editing for clarity and grammar. I do a lot of technical documentation.
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And Here We Go 01/13/2022 8:53 AM
I had to reread The HIP twice. Not so clear
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Dogweather
Would you be open for help adding explanatory examples to the HIP? I think there’s a lot of info that doesn’t come through in the official document.
I tried to do some generic ones but it all boils down to your ability to beacon and acquire witnesses from those beacons. I’m down for help you’re willing to provide! You can fork and make a PR of it and I’ll review it
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Anthonyra
I tried to do some generic ones but it all boils down to your ability to beacon and acquire witnesses from those beacons. I’m down for help you’re willing to provide! You can fork and make a PR of it and I’ll review it
Great. It’s not too late in the process?
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Being my second HIP my first went down in flames because it was tooo technical. This one even though I took a significant amount of time trying to lower to a 5th grader people still consider it to be too technical … maybe I should just make a TikTok? 😅
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Dogweather
Great. It’s not too late in the process?
Not if it’s simply grammatical and clarifying by nature.
08:56
Like additional examples are fine too. Anything that changes the scope or suggested implementation (algorithm) would be too much
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Lol. I think there’s room for improvement in, say, changing passive voice to active, being clearer with use of pronouns, etc. there are a lot of actors and events in play, and every bit of clarity helps.
08:58
Also some aspects like accounting for 2.4 avg beacons per day isn’t mentioned, I don’t think. So an appendix or section with real world implications would be great.
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Anthonyra
The average right now is 2.4 across the entire network and the compensation factor is based off of this
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 8:59 AM
You want to roll out something which individually affects specific miners in differing ways based on an average for the entire network. You do see the massive flaw there, don't you.
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E.g. I saw a lot of fear based reactions from people who aren’t making 4 beacons per day and so believe they’ll be penalized.
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FiatCollector
will try there..ty
I did this recently. Searching for "helium sd card" has the first hit: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/replace-sd-card/ which has this in the instructions:
Download the image file to Flash. Replace the date part of the following URL with the latest GA tagged release in the Community Discord's #announcements channel. i.e. new firmware date of 2022.01.04.0 and https://helium-nextgate.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/artifacts/<date>-sdcard.img.gz becomes https://helium-nextgate.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/artifacts/2022.01.04.0-sdcard.img.gzand enter that url in your browser
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Checkkill
I checked his beacons for the last 5 days. He had only 5 beacons in 5-6 days of which 4 where relayed... does that do anything? not saying this isn't a cheater, it most likely is....
And Here We Go 01/13/2022 9:04 AM
How does one see a relayed beacon?
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ChrisFox
They know how many times a hotspot should beacon. From what I understand is as long as your beaconing once or twice a day and it’s getting witnessed you won’t be effected. Only way you might be effected is if your witnessing 100s of hotspots everyday and only beconing once or beaconing and it’s not getting witnessed. I think the ratio there looking at is 70 percent so for every beacon you successfully complete you get like 8 witnesses
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 9:08 AM
So if I beacon four times a day I'm allowed to WITNESS 32 beacons in that day? 32/24 hours = 1.33 per hour?
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Anthonyra
Being my second HIP my first went down in flames because it was tooo technical. This one even though I took a significant amount of time trying to lower to a 5th grader people still consider it to be too technical … maybe I should just make a TikTok? 😅
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 9:09 AM
I'm not sure it's too technical - just poorly written
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captainhindsight
So if I beacon four times a day I'm allowed to WITNESS 32 beacons in that day? 32/24 hours = 1.33 per hour?
There’s no set numbers yet but that’s what there looking at so yes. There basically after the miners that are not beaconing at all. If there’s a ton of miners on the network that only witness and don’t beacon then there not actually providing poc. Also there are a ton of relayed miners that have no incentive to fix it because here not worried about beaconing because it’s only pennies. This will force them to get out of relay which in turn should provide more beacons for people to witness. It’s a win win unless your gaming the system
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I had a well respected member of this discord community help me set it up and he can confirm I am legit... After talking it over here on discord, it seems like I don't beacon very often... Here's my results from beaconing: I sent beacons on the 12th, 8th , 7th, two on the 6th, three on the 5th, and four on the 4th, 3rd, three on the 1st, one on the 30th, three on the 27th, one on the 26th- nothing on the 25th, I was offline/synching for the 24th and 23rd- two on the 22nd, one on the 20th, and one on the 18th... Don't know why I am not beaconing consitantly, but I am happy with the results of my expensive outdoor antenna set up and this HIP will kill my rewards (edited)
09:13
Witnessing 2.60HNT 95.73%
09:13
Being witnessed 0.10HNT
09:14
Excellent 84 hotspots 356 valid beacons 0 invalid beacons 71.79%
09:14
For some reason I am not beaconing very often.
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ChrisFox
There’s no set numbers yet but that’s what there looking at so yes. There basically after the miners that are not beaconing at all. If there’s a ton of miners on the network that only witness and don’t beacon then there not actually providing poc. Also there are a ton of relayed miners that have no incentive to fix it because here not worried about beaconing because it’s only pennies. This will force them to get out of relay which in turn should provide more beacons for people to witness. It’s a win win unless your gaming the system
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 9:15 AM
Sorry - I'm still not getting it. What's the point of there being more beacons to witness if I'm not allowed to witness them because I've used up my quota of 32 for the day? Either I'm being dumb or this entire HIP stinks to high heaven.
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My topography is not great, there a a ton of small hills and valleys around me and only by getting up 128ft do I get my almost one HNT reward a day... I know it's not a lot compared to all you who are set up on cell phone towers, or in perfect locations- but I am in a 1.0 reward scale area and coverage is hard out here.. Heck even my cell phone only has one bar of reception... (edited)
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Anthonyra
Being my second HIP my first went down in flames because it was tooo technical. This one even though I took a significant amount of time trying to lower to a 5th grader people still consider it to be too technical … maybe I should just make a TikTok? 😅
beechball_45424 01/13/2022 9:29 AM
It isn’t too technical for me. I simply don’t agree that it will solve our problem. Seems like innocent people will also suffer. I’m voting NO
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And Here We Go
How does one see a relayed beacon?
In the explorer look for a beacon. Then click on Transaction details and then click on the challenger…
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How to vote yes?
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Dogweather
E.g. I saw a lot of fear based reactions from people who aren’t making 4 beacons per day and so believe they’ll be penalized.
beechball_45424 01/13/2022 9:32 AM
This is the single biggest factor to my worry. I beacon 1 time a day and sometimes twice but never 3-4 times in 24 hours. I believe I will be penalized for something that is random.
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captainhindsight
Sorry - I'm still not getting it. What's the point of there being more beacons to witness if I'm not allowed to witness them because I've used up my quota of 32 for the day? Either I'm being dumb or this entire HIP stinks to high heaven.
Do you currently witness 32 times a day?
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BadTrader
I had a well respected member of this discord community help me set it up and he can confirm I am legit... After talking it over here on discord, it seems like I don't beacon very often... Here's my results from beaconing: I sent beacons on the 12th, 8th , 7th, two on the 6th, three on the 5th, and four on the 4th, 3rd, three on the 1st, one on the 30th, three on the 27th, one on the 26th- nothing on the 25th, I was offline/synching for the 24th and 23rd- two on the 22nd, one on the 20th, and one on the 18th... Don't know why I am not beaconing consitantly, but I am happy with the results of my expensive outdoor antenna set up and this HIP will kill my rewards (edited)
And this is exactly the problem with this HIP. It assumes you beacon on average x-times a day. Well I have had weeks where I didn’t beacon at all, or all 0 witnesses because challenger being relayed. Those weeks will be heavily penalised with this HIP as witness list drops tremendously but I still have witnesses.
helium 1
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Carl-bot BOT 01/13/2022 9:34 AM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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ChrisFox
Do you currently witness 32 times a day?
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 9:39 AM
61 times in the past 24 hours.
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captainhindsight
61 times in the past 24 hours.
Wow well those number are not set in stone. Hopefully they find a ratio that works. Do you beacon? Maybe if they set it so max is at 4 beacons and if you hit 4 beacons then you don’t get witnessing reduced
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Checkkill
And this is exactly the problem with this HIP. It assumes you beacon on average x-times a day. Well I have had weeks where I didn’t beacon at all, or all 0 witnesses because challenger being relayed. Those weeks will be heavily penalised with this HIP as witness list drops tremendously but I still have witnesses.
beechball_45424 01/13/2022 9:45 AM
Exactly! Random beaconing should not be the way I profit.
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ChrisFox
Wow well those number are not set in stone. Hopefully they find a ratio that works. Do you beacon? Maybe if they set it so max is at 4 beacons and if you hit 4 beacons then you don’t get witnessing reduced
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 9:46 AM
I last beaconed two days ago - THROUGH NO FAULT OF MY OWN AS I HAVE PRECISELY ZERO CONTROL OVER THAT FUNCTION. That is why this HIP stinks to high heaven. The fact people are voting FOR it is astonishing. I imagine they are only voting for it because it PRETENDS to be about stopping gamers. I'm not a gamer. I'm just one guy who spent around $700 setting up one Bobcat to provide the best coverage I can.
10k 5
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@captainhindsight I agree.
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How about they force the system to make each hotspot beacon 4 times a day for everyone? And only 4 times a day?
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As long as they can't guarantee I'm beaconing 4 times a day, they have no business setting limits on the amount of people I can witness
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BadTrader
How about they force the system to make each hotspot beacon 4 times a day for everyone? And only 4 times a day?
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 9:47 AM
I would still be punished.
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I probably would too... This HIP sucks... and the window-sill miners are gonna vote it through
09:48
This is NOT the solution
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beechball_45424 01/13/2022 9:48 AM
I often go 24 hours without beaconing and this would completely penalize me for something that I can’t control. They want us to buy expensive miners, cables, and antennas just to rug us after we set it up.
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My normal beacons like 1 or 2 times a day, what's that do for the ones not beaconing bit sending the challenges. Mine goes for days where it's only the challenger
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Sorry I’m new here. Can someone give me a quick crash course on HIP 42 or maybe send me a link about it?
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Yeah- I recently went between the 8th and 12th with no beacons
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captainhindsight
I last beaconed two days ago - THROUGH NO FAULT OF MY OWN AS I HAVE PRECISELY ZERO CONTROL OVER THAT FUNCTION. That is why this HIP stinks to high heaven. The fact people are voting FOR it is astonishing. I imagine they are only voting for it because it PRETENDS to be about stopping gamers. I'm not a gamer. I'm just one guy who spent around $700 setting up one Bobcat to provide the best coverage I can.
Maybe it’s your setup that isn’t allowing you to beacon? What antenna are you running are you in relay?
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BadTrader
Yeah- I recently went between the 8th and 12th with no beacons
beechball_45424 01/13/2022 9:50 AM
Happens all the time and then for some reason you will beacon twice in 1 hour.
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captainhindsight 01/13/2022 9:50 AM
Yet another way for Helium to make things so complex that most people just end up accepting crappy rewards simply because they don't understand how they are calculated
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So we have a system over which the miner has no control(beaconing), another random system (witnessing) over which we are thinking to impose a quota. I think there is serious logic flaw in this, without even looking at the numbers
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beechball_45424
Happens all the time and then for some reason you will beacon twice in 1 hour.
My sensecap freaked out yesterday and sent 7 beacons
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Mr P
My sensecap freaked out yesterday and sent 7 beacons
beechball_45424 01/13/2022 9:51 AM
Holy heck
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Yea normally 1 or 2 but 7 in 24 hours was a WTF (edited)
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Luck you! Most I have ever had in one day is 4, but on average I am lucky to get one beacon a day
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ChrisFox
Maybe it’s your setup that isn’t allowing you to beacon? What antenna are you running are you in relay?
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 9:51 AM
My antenna is from a well respected manufacturer. I challenge others to beacon regularly.
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I have a RAK 5.8 antenna on mine...
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BadTrader
Luck you! Most I have ever had in one day is 4, but on average I am lucky to get one beacon a day
I started the day our -58 on rewards and finished with +19%
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Will this HIP fix the issues with the beacon ? As there are many days that we don’t send beacon
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mistakeNot
So we have a system over which the miner has no control(beaconing), another random system (witnessing) over which we are thinking to impose a quota. I think there is serious logic flaw in this, without even looking at the numbers
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 9:52 AM
Correct. It actually defies logic - unless its true intent is to punish people who have invested time, effort and money to build a decent setup.
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Even if it did, it sounds like it will target people who optimized their antenna set up..
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420.69
Will this HIP fix the issues with the beacon ? As there are many days that we don’t send beacon
As far as I know, they have no idea how to fix it
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Guys, forget the antenna. If you beacon with a bad antenna you get probably less witnesses, but doesn’t stop you to beacon
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420.69
Will this HIP fix the issues with the beacon ? As there are many days that we don’t send beacon
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 9:53 AM
IT FIXES NOTHING
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captainhindsight
My antenna is from a well respected manufacturer. I challenge others to beacon regularly.
I’m not asking if it’s a good antenna what’s the dbi? The reason I ask is because if your over on dbi they throttle your output. This does effect how much you beacon. I’ve tested it myself and noticed I beacon a lot more eith a 5.8 than a 15dbi. Matter of fact the 15 hardly beacons.
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captainhindsight
IT FIXES NOTHING
What is supposed to do ? I didn’t have time to look at it
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Just takes money from the people that invested bigger to give to the people that cast them to the wind
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HIP-42 will put a limit to the amount of beacons a hotspot can witness, depending on the amount of beacons that hotspot sent (edited)
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ChrisFox
I’m not asking if it’s a good antenna what’s the dbi? The reason I ask is because if your over on dbi they throttle your output. This does effect how much you beacon. I’ve tested it myself and noticed I beacon a lot more eith a 5.8 than a 15dbi. Matter of fact the 15 hardly beacons.
And where the heck is that specified? I appreciate your observation, but should be made clear
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captainhindsight
My antenna is from a well respected manufacturer. I challenge others to beacon regularly.
I have currently today sent out 4 beacons after switching to the 5.8 yesterday. I have been testing different antennas and when I had it at 15dbi I wasn’t beaconing near as much
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420.69
What is supposed to do ? I didn’t have time to look at it
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 9:55 AM
So you think I'm gonna spend my time explaining it to you? Guess again.
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captainhindsight
So you think I'm gonna spend my time explaining it to you? Guess again.
Yes you will
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ChrisFox
I have currently today sent out 4 beacons after switching to the 5.8 yesterday. I have been testing different antennas and when I had it at 15dbi I wasn’t beaconing near as much
Chris, what you say, and i don’t doubt it, means they introduced something in poc11 we weren’t aware off.. so not only power control is enabled, but is taken in account in other algorithms as well (edited)
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ChrisFox
I’m not asking if it’s a good antenna what’s the dbi? The reason I ask is because if your over on dbi they throttle your output. This does effect how much you beacon. I’ve tested it myself and noticed I beacon a lot more eith a 5.8 than a 15dbi. Matter of fact the 15 hardly beacons.
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 9:58 AM
You are conflating two completely different things
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Voted against it woot woot
10k 1
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I don’t get it I think. I have a hotspot who witnesses much more than it beacons. So HIP42 is going to reduce my income from witnessing because I’m not beaconing anyway?
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Mr P
Voted against it woot woot
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 9:59 AM
Thank you 🤝
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Dacoolkid1
I don’t get it I think. I have a hotspot who witnesses much more than it beacons. So HIP42 is going to reduce my income from witnessing because I’m not beaconing anyway?
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 10:00 AM
Correct. You will be punished for somthing you have zero control over.
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ChrisFox
I have currently today sent out 4 beacons after switching to the 5.8 yesterday. I have been testing different antennas and when I had it at 15dbi I wasn’t beaconing near as much
Your antenna has nothing to do with how frequently you send a beacon
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So it favors already high performing miners and punishes those that mainly witness?
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captainhindsight
Correct. You will be punished for somthing you have zero control over.
Maybe they forgot to say that a beacon switch will be released on hip42 for each miner. And you get punished only if you press it too many times per day😁
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Mr P
Voted against it woot woot
I voted no too but most of my HNT is in a staking pool so I would have to unstake, send back to my main wallet, vote, and then send it back to stake for me to get my whole voice in the vote
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Dacoolkid1
So it favors already high performing miners and punishes those that mainly witness?
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 10:03 AM
No. High performing miners witness lots. How do you not understand that?
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cheezedawg
I voted no too but most of my HNT is in a staking pool so I would have to unstake, send back to my main wallet, vote, and then send it back to stake for me to get my whole voice in the vote
It's like .0000001 hnt to vote
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Mr P
It's like .0000001 hnt to vote
Is about the weight of the vote, not the price
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captainhindsight
Correct. You will be punished for somthing you have zero control over.
I was a lot more worried about this HIP until I plugged my hotspot into the tool linked in the HIP that tells you how much you would be impacted.
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Mr P
It's like .0000001 hnt to vote
Vote weight is proportional to how much HNT is in the wallet.
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cheezedawg
I was a lot more worried about this HIP until I plugged my hotspot into the tool linked in the HIP that tells you how much you would be impacted.
Paper, and more recently screens, can take anything
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Got my miners working hard printing money
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mistakeNot
Paper, and more recently screens, can take anything
I was also more forgiving of the crappy writing in the HIP until I saw the author in here blaming complaints about it on him being “too technical”. Nah, it just sucks.
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cheezedawg
Vote weight is proportional to how much HNT is in the wallet.
Give #hip-41-governance-by-token-lock-v2 a read if you don’t like the current voting mechanism. Also I’m defining an optimal hotspot in regards to PoC and not rewards. With today’s incentives it’s pushes people to setups that only witness. How is that fair to all those hotspots beaconing giving you those sweet sweet rewards when they can’t witness you back? That’s the question trying to be answered here. If you have an alternative to align a hotspot to beacon more then witness please write a HIP (edited)
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cheezedawg
I was a lot more worried about this HIP until I plugged my hotspot into the tool linked in the HIP that tells you how much you would be impacted.
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 10:06 AM
It wouldn't let me login with google. If it turns out people who witness more than 32 beacons a day WOULDN'T be punished, some of the stuff we've been told here is just plain wring
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cheezedawg
I was also more forgiving of the crappy writing in the HIP until I saw the author in here blaming complaints about it on him being “too technical”. Nah, it just sucks.
What i wanted to say is that in any sane network you do a pilot, a trial on something like this, in a confined area to asses the real results. Never you’ll rollout network wide without a check
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cheezedawg
I was also more forgiving of the crappy writing in the HIP until I saw the author in here blaming complaints about it on him being “too technical”. Nah, it just sucks.
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 10:08 AM
Yeah - it's our fault because we are not technical enough? Clearly my 30 year career as an IT manager wasn't enough 💩
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ChrisFox
I have currently today sent out 4 beacons after switching to the 5.8 yesterday. I have been testing different antennas and when I had it at 15dbi I wasn’t beaconing near as much
Antennas have zero to do with how often you beacon. That’s determined by the blockchain and is purely chance
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Checkkill
Antennas have zero to do with how often you beacon. That’s determined by the blockchain and is purely chance
So hip42 will punish chance😉
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mistakeNot
So hip42 will punish chance😉
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 10:11 AM
It will punish the very thing we are all supposed to strive for - providing optimal coverage
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captainhindsight
Yeah - it's our fault because we are not technical enough? Clearly my 30 year career as an IT manager wasn't enough 💩
I’ve dived pretty deep into POC calculations. I know why my beacons and witnesses earn what they do. I know how often I normally beacon and how many witnesses those beacons get. I know how many times I witness another beacon and how many other witnesses also saw that beacon. And I still have no idea how HIP 42 calculates the limit.
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captainhindsight 01/13/2022 10:13 AM
@Anthonyra How precisely does your HIP proposal Improve Helium?
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captainhindsight
It will punish the very thing we are all supposed to strive for - providing optimal coverage
There you are making a big assumption about the target -providing coverage. As I’ve seen it, high density areas are rewarded whereas the low density areas (those really providing coverage) are punished
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mistakeNot
So hip42 will punish chance😉
That’s how I understand it
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cheezedawg
I’ve dived pretty deep into POC calculations. I know why my beacons and witnesses earn what they do. I know how often I normally beacon and how many witnesses those beacons get. I know how many times I witness another beacon and how many other witnesses also saw that beacon. And I still have no idea how HIP 42 calculates the limit.
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 10:14 AM
Me too. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever
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Please let’s all take a second and define optimal coverage. I’ll go first, you provide optimal coverage if you’re able to beacon and witness within a ratio that supports a healthy network. This HIP defines that ratio (edited)
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mistakeNot
There you are making a big assumption about the target -providing coverage. As I’ve seen it, high density areas are rewarded whereas the low density areas (those really providing coverage) are punished
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 10:15 AM
I'm very happy to be educated 😉
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Anthonyra
Please let’s all take a second and define optimal coverage. I’ll go first, you provide optimal coverage if you’re able to beacon and witness within a ratio that supports a healthy network. This HIP defines that ratio (edited)
No. Optimal coverage means you insure a certain threshold rssi for a given percentage of the total area defined in the project
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mistakeNot
No. Optimal coverage means you insure a certain threshold rssi for a given percentage of the total area defined in the project
What about downlinks? How does the blockchain know you can provide them?
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mistakeNot
No. Optimal coverage means you insure a certain threshold rssi for a given percentage of the total area defined in the project
for uplinks or downlinks?
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Radrob
for uplinks or downlinks?
Uplink mainly, as lora is downlink poor
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How do devices join the network?
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Anthonyra
Please let’s all take a second and define optimal coverage. I’ll go first, you provide optimal coverage if you’re able to beacon and witness within a ratio that supports a healthy network. This HIP defines that ratio (edited)
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 10:17 AM
I am able to beacon and witness. I am prevented from beaconing by the network. Please define Healthy Ratio. Healthy for who? Healthy according to who? Healthy for what purpose?
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mistakeNot
There you are making a big assumption about the target -providing coverage. As I’ve seen it, high density areas are rewarded whereas the low density areas (those really providing coverage) are punished
That’s not true. My hotspot has around 3x of the activity as a friend that has a hotspot in a much more rural area. His hotspot earns more than mine because the beacons he witnesses are worth more (his hotspot is one of 2-4 witnesses on those). (edited)
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Vote no on hip42!!
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cheezedawg
That’s not true. My hotspot has around 3x of the activity as a friend that has a hotspot in a much more rural area. His hotspot earns more than mine because the beacons he witnesses are worth more (his hotspot is one of 2-4 witnesses on those). (edited)
There you are impacted by Scale, but you have more activity then him
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cheezedawg
That’s not true. My hotspot has around 3x of the activity as a friend that has a hotspot in a much more rural area. His hotspot earns more than mine because the beacons he witnesses are worth more (his hotspot is one of 2-4 witnesses on those). (edited)
I got you. But that doesn’t mean he will not serve a big area for sensors
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Anthonyra
What about downlinks? How does the blockchain know you can provide them?
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 10:20 AM
The network dictates WHO can beacon and WHEN - therefore setting the required standard. If the standard the network has set does not meet their needs, they need to fix it - not punish us for THEIR failure
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Explain then why I go days with only 1 beacon then some days it goes nuts with 6 or 7 beacons. It's literally going to give good days and bad days to rewards and I don't like that. I want a constant.
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Anthonyra
How do devices join the network?
Please continue, i’m all ears, i might even learn something new
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 10:21 AM
@Anthonyra thinks those of us who have invested time, effort and money to build optimal coverage for the people's network should not reap the appropriate rewards for that.
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mistakeNot
I got you. But that doesn’t mean he will not serve a big area for sensors
I have no problem with his hotspot earning more- he is extending the network more than me. It’s how POC works.
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cheezedawg
I have no problem with his hotspot earning more- he is extending the network more than me. It’s how POC works.
Right, right, we were saying the same thing, but didn’t understood each other😁
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This is just one of many steps to lower rewards. There is no practical benefit to this proposal passing and limiting hotspots providing wide coverage
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Is that for "YES"?
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hforn
This is just one of many steps to lower rewards. There is no practical benefit to this proposal passing and limiting hotspots providing wide coverage
I can see wanting to weed out the guys that put an antenna way up on a hill over a city where they witness hundreds of hotspots every day but don’t actually provide more value to the network because it’s all 1 way.
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Mr_Fizzer
Bro I have 6 setups on 50m+ high cell towers and roof towers all of them are top 20 and of one them is #1 in my city of 700 hotspots. And they’re not affected, YOURE NOT the only one who invested time and money in this (edited)
Amen. Great setup you got!
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hforn
This is just one of many steps to lower rewards. There is no practical benefit to this proposal passing and limiting hotspots providing wide coverage
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 10:25 AM
You have hit the nail on the head. First HIP15 and HIP17 and now this. The fundamental difference with 15 and 17 though is that they were at least formulated to deliver optimal coverage on the people's network. HIP42 does nothing of the sort.
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Vote is proportional to the amount of HNT in a wallet so if some whales vote yes it’s all over. Which is fine- they have more riding on HNT.
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captainhindsight
Unless I'm missing something really fundamental, it PRETENDS to be shifting rewards away from nodes which witness far more than they beacon - but it isn't shifting those rewards TO anyone. Nobody can beacon more than four times a day. This HIP pretends it's robbing rich to pay the poor - and combatting spoofers - and it's actually doing neither
It will benefit all non-cheating miners, easy as that. Less hotspots to share the rewards pie with, as cheat miners currently take a fair chunk
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 10:26 AM
Because they've been conned into believing their rewards will increased - which isn't true.
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cheezedawg
Vote is proportional to the amount of HNT in a wallet so if some whales vote yes it’s all over. Which is fine- they have more riding on HNT.
Modern days robin hood method: take from poor and give to rich😁
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zzeddd
It will benefit all non-cheating miners, easy as that. Less hotspots to share the rewards pie with, as cheat miners currently take a fair chunk
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 10:27 AM
It won't
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captainhindsight
Because they've been conned into believing their rewards will increased - which isn't true.
Ah captainhindsight (edited)
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Mr_Fizzer
Ah captainhindsight (edited)
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 10:28 AM
You need to edit a second time
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BadTrader
My topography is not great, there a a ton of small hills and valleys around me and only by getting up 128ft do I get my almost one HNT reward a day... I know it's not a lot compared to all you who are set up on cell phone towers, or in perfect locations- but I am in a 1.0 reward scale area and coverage is hard out here.. Heck even my cell phone only has one bar of reception... (edited)
1 HNT a day on 128ft is certainly not impossible with an honest setup. Good for you. I sometimes reach 1 or 0,9 with 15 meter (45ft?) height and free line-of-sight. You don't have to fear to be impacted by this change
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captainhindsight
You need to edit a second time
Your name is too complicated and my autocorrect isn’t helping coolcry
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zzeddd
Amen. Great setup you got!
My only issue with this is that it’s very difficult to see exactly what the limit is and will be from the text of the HIP. Just have to trust the tool that tells whether you are impacted or not is accurately representing it.
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Will a miner be disincentivized with hip42 if they're at an optimal location getting 18 witnesses for every beacon but also witnessing hundreds or thousands of hotspots? I feel like ratios is the wrong way to go about it if that's the case. You'll just get rid of your networks most valuable hotspots; people that took the time to contract with tower owners, mountaintop real estate owners, etc etc (edited)
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EskInvest
Will a miner be disincentivized with hip42 if they're at an optimal location getting 18 witnesses for every beacon but also witnessing hundreds or thousands of hotspots? I feel like ratios is the wrong way to go about it if that's the case. You'll just get rid of your networks most valuable hotspots; people that took the time to contract with tower owners, mountaintop real estate owners, etc etc (edited)
Just check with the simulation
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༺M༻
How to vote yes?
Look up the vote on heliumvote.com with your mobile. Then you will be redirected to the app to burn a mini amount of HNT for the vote
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EskInvest
Will a miner be disincentivized with hip42 if they're at an optimal location getting 18 witnesses for every beacon but also witnessing hundreds or thousands of hotspots? I feel like ratios is the wrong way to go about it if that's the case. You'll just get rid of your networks most valuable hotspots; people that took the time to contract with tower owners, mountaintop real estate owners, etc etc (edited)
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 10:29 AM
Exactly right 🙏
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mistakeNot
Please continue, i’m all ears, i might even learn something new
in order for a lorawan device to join the network, it sends an uplink and then receives a downlink in response. Without that downlink, it cannot join the network....thus downlinks (ie beacons in PoC) are very important to lorawan
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EskInvest
Will a miner be disincentivized with hip42 if they're at an optimal location getting 18 witnesses for every beacon but also witnessing hundreds or thousands of hotspots? I feel like ratios is the wrong way to go about it if that's the case. You'll just get rid of your networks most valuable hotspots; people that took the time to contract with tower owners, mountaintop real estate owners, etc etc (edited)
All my setups are on celltowers and roof tops 50+m high and non of them are affected
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Mr_Fizzer
Just check with the simulation
blindly trust
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captainhindsight
Exactly right 🙏
Ridiculous. If a miner is getting 18 witnesses for every one of their beacons then they should be able to witness any amount of beacons.
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Help spread the word and prevent this from passing and limiting good performers
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cheezedawg
blindly trust
psyduck
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It shouldn't be a ratio, rather maybe something logarithmic
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hforn
Help spread the word and prevent this from passing and limiting good performers
First of all, it’s not even actual vote… and secondly if the simulation is anything to go off of, 99.9% of you aren’t affected
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EskInvest
Ridiculous. If a miner is getting 18 witnesses for every one of their beacons then they should be able to witness any amount of beacons.
Getting 18 witnesses on your beacon is not hard at all it is certainly going to restrict witnessing even at the max witnesses on your beacon
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cheezedawg
My only issue with this is that it’s very difficult to see exactly what the limit is and will be from the text of the HIP. Just have to trust the tool that tells whether you are impacted or not is accurately representing it.
Could be. I trust the tool will be configured properly. If the system suddenly impacts a lot of proper, non-cheating miners, they can always roll back the release
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Vote no! Your rewards are going to be decreased.
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EskInvest
It shouldn't be a ratio, rather maybe something logarithmic
That’s a suggested alternative #hip-44-witness-reward-decay
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brez
Vote no! Your rewards are going to be decreased.
How do you know?
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EskInvest
Ridiculous. If a miner is getting 18 witnesses for every one of their beacons then they should be able to witness any amount of beacons.
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 10:32 AM
Yes they should. This whole concept stinks. In fact I'm starting to wonder if this HIP has something to do with the delay in my own being published - because mine encourages and supports the building of optimal coverage - while HIP42 seeks to punish it.
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brez
Vote no! Your rewards are going to be decreased.
Lol this is just pure fud. What are the rules on banning?
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Did you do your research? Or did you just read TLDR from someone who read TLDR from someone else
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You’re going to be limited to 360 witnesses per day. So if each beacon has 18 witnesses that’s a MAX of 20 beacons per day
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Mr_Fizzer
How do you know?
What is the real benefit of this? How could it positively affect rewards?
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Anthonyra
That’s a suggested alternative #hip-44-witness-reward-decay
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 10:33 AM
It doesn't need an alternative - it needs to be scrapped - today.
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Radrob
in order for a lorawan device to join the network, it sends an uplink and then receives a downlink in response. Without that downlink, it cannot join the network....thus downlinks (ie beacons in PoC) are very important to lorawan
That happens in any mobile network. However like any mobile network and technology, Lora is uplink limited, so downlink should never be an issue
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brez
You’re going to be limited to 360 witnesses per day. So if each beacon has 18 witnesses that’s a MAX of 20 beacons per day
No, you’d be able to hear 360 other beacons per day
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Anthonyra
That’s a suggested alternative #hip-44-witness-reward-decay
How would a suggested alternative be possibly enacted? Would it be voted upon?
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brez
You’re going to be limited to 360 witnesses per day. So if each beacon has 18 witnesses that’s a MAX of 20 beacons per day
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 10:35 AM
Where does that 360 come from? According to the maths someone touted here earlier the max was 8 per beacon sent = 32
10:36
Or zero, if you didn't happen to beacon that day
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EskInvest
How would a suggested alternative be possibly enacted? Would it be voted upon?
Yes it needs it's own vote
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@Anthonyra Can you clear up how the limit is calculated? I’ve read the HIP. Let’s use numbers from a hotspot on explorer that I just looked at: 5 day average of 77 witnesses. Is the limit some factor of 77?
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Why limit earnings at all? No clear benefit to this. Just because I have a setup that’s able to witness more beacons than somebody else, why should I get punished?
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captainhindsight
Where does that 360 come from? According to the maths someone touted here earlier the max was 8 per beacon sent = 32
That math is in the HIP... also to be clear 360 is the max unique witness count... but since there's a compensation factor it pushes to 576.. I should have clarified my response. There's an IP filter that prevents a hotspot from beaconing more than once per 360 blocks window (poc_challenge_interval) meaning that you could be targeted 4 times per day (1440 blocks) max with that IP filter in place. With a witness cap of 18, you'd see 72 potentially unique witnesses from your beacons. Add up the last 5 days at max and you're able to see 360. You can take that number and times it by 8 (based on the calculations in the HIP) and divide by 5 to get the daily = 576. Which means if you get the max wits list based on the IP bloom filter currently on chain you can hear 576 different beacons per day without being affected. (edited)
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brez
Why limit earnings at all? No clear benefit to this. Just because I have a setup that’s able to witness more beacons than somebody else, why should I get punished?
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 10:42 AM
That is the fundamental question. One might conclude that it's just to reduce the total amount of rewards being paid out.
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InvestThatMoney305 01/13/2022 10:43 AM
What the percentage the new rule needs to pass?
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Anthonyra
That math is in the HIP... also to be clear 360 is the max unique witness count... but since there's a compensation factor it pushes to 576.. I should have clarified my response. There's an IP filter that prevents a hotspot from beaconing more than once per 360 blocks window (poc_challenge_interval) meaning that you could be targeted 4 times per day (1440 blocks) max with that IP filter in place. With a witness cap of 18, you'd see 72 potentially unique witnesses from your beacons. Add up the last 5 days at max and you're able to see 360. You can take that number and times it by 8 (based on the calculations in the HIP) and divide by 5 to get the daily = 576. Which means if you get the max wits list based on the IP bloom filter currently on chain you can hear 576 different beacons per day without being affected. (edited)
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 10:44 AM
So not 32 then as someone's earlier maths suggested?
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Anthonyra
That math is in the HIP... also to be clear 360 is the max unique witness count... but since there's a compensation factor it pushes to 576.. I should have clarified my response. There's an IP filter that prevents a hotspot from beaconing more than once per 360 blocks window (poc_challenge_interval) meaning that you could be targeted 4 times per day (1440 blocks) max with that IP filter in place. With a witness cap of 18, you'd see 72 potentially unique witnesses from your beacons. Add up the last 5 days at max and you're able to see 360. You can take that number and times it by 8 (based on the calculations in the HIP) and divide by 5 to get the daily = 576. Which means if you get the max wits list based on the IP bloom filter currently on chain you can hear 576 different beacons per day without being affected. (edited)
Where did you get this information from?
10:46
You’re saying we will be able to witness 576 beacons per day?
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captainhindsight
So not 32 then as someone's earlier maths suggested?
The max witness receipt cap suggested is not 32, it's 576. However you can only get to that number if you have a high enough wits list # and since the compensation factor exists that's 180.. So while a compensation factor exists can push it higher you'd need to defeat the IP bloom filter to do so
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brez
You’re saying we will be able to witness 576 beacons per day?
At a wits list of 180, yes
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brez
You’re saying we will be able to witness 576 beacons per day?
That’s the theoretic max if beacons are optimal.
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Anthonyra
The max witness receipt cap suggested is not 32, it's 576. However you can only get to that number if you have a high enough wits list # and since the compensation factor exists that's 180.. So while a compensation factor exists can push it higher you'd need to defeat the IP bloom filter to do so
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 10:47 AM
Sorry - what is the IP bloom filter?
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cheezedawg
That’s the theoretic max if beacons are optimal.
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 10:48 AM
And if, like me, you haven't beaconed for two days - and there's absolutely nothing you can do about that?
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You can witness 72*3 max, if previous 3 days you beaconed 4/day, all according to bloom ip filter😁 (edited)
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I think part of this issue is that challenges are being made regularly by unresponsive or blocked hotspots. This is causing the good hotspots to not get challenges regularly to prove coverage and get witnesses. I think there should be a way to mitigate the poor challengers before you do some sort of witness limit.
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BadGuyTy
I think part of this issue is that challenges are being made regularly by unresponsive or blocked hotspots. This is causing the good hotspots to not get challenges regularly to prove coverage and get witnesses. I think there should be a way to mitigate the poor challengers before you do some sort of witness limit.
Yea light hotspots, which because I volunteered to code this if the vote passes will not be delayed or slowed (edited)
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Anthonyra
That math is in the HIP... also to be clear 360 is the max unique witness count... but since there's a compensation factor it pushes to 576.. I should have clarified my response. There's an IP filter that prevents a hotspot from beaconing more than once per 360 blocks window (poc_challenge_interval) meaning that you could be targeted 4 times per day (1440 blocks) max with that IP filter in place. With a witness cap of 18, you'd see 72 potentially unique witnesses from your beacons. Add up the last 5 days at max and you're able to see 360. You can take that number and times it by 8 (based on the calculations in the HIP) and divide by 5 to get the daily = 576. Which means if you get the max wits list based on the IP bloom filter currently on chain you can hear 576 different beacons per day without being affected. (edited)
Thanks for clarifying. Do I understand correctly that that means that ANY hotspot that currently has more than 576 witnesses will be impacted?
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Checkkill
Thanks for clarifying. Do I understand correctly that that means that ANY hotspot that currently has more than 576 witnesses will be impacted?
The hotspot with the most witness receipts on network is currently capping 536. However this was before the denylist was removed
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Anthonyra
Yea light hotspots, which because I volunteered to code this if the vote passes will not be delayed or slowed (edited)
Sorry, i fail to see the link of this with the light hotspots. Can you clarify?
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Anthonyra
The hotspot with the most witness receipts on network is currently capping 536. However this was before the denylist was removed
Ohh you mean max witness list as in witnesses to a beacon, not witnessing another beacon? Sorry I misunderstood you then! Thanks for clarifying.
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Carl-bot BOT 01/13/2022 10:53 AM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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Is it possible we can implement this HIP after light hotspots? Too confusing
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mistakeNot
Sorry, i fail to see the link of this with the light hotspots. Can you clarify?
Relayed hotspots go away, challenges move to validators (edited)
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zzeddd
1 HNT a day on 128ft is certainly not impossible with an honest setup. Good for you. I sometimes reach 1 or 0,9 with 15 meter (45ft?) height and free line-of-sight. You don't have to fear to be impacted by this change
But the query says I will be impacted...
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Checkkill
Thanks for clarifying. Do I understand correctly that that means that ANY hotspot that currently has more than 576 witnesses will be impacted?
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 10:55 AM
Do you mean 576 per day?
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something like you are not rewarded for challenges that have no witnesses but if you get a blank challenge you can make another challenge immediately up to a certain number of blank challenges a day. This will mean that you are only rewarded for good challenges but the rate of beaconing can also be affected. I would like to see that those that beacon successfully are more evenly challenged.
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Anthonyra
Relayed hotspots go away, challenges move to validators (edited)
Right, and we discuss relayed hotspots because they don’t beacon or what?
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Anthonyra
The hotspot with the most witness receipts on network is currently capping 536. However this was before the denylist was removed
Do you happen to know the name of this hotspot?
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mistakeNot
Right, and we discuss relayed hotspots because they don’t beacon or what?
No, relayed hotspots changes relays quicker then the current network gossip can get them out. So by the time the witness try to phone home the relay is old and not active anymore. Resulting in 0 witness beacons
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captainhindsight
Do you mean 576 per day?
Witness list, so he meant others seeing your beacon
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Carl-bot BOT 01/13/2022 10:56 AM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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Anthonyra
No, relayed hotspots changes relays quicker then the current network gossip can get them out. So by the time the witness try to phone home the relay is old and not active anymore. Resulting in 0 witness beacons
So you finally got to the root cause, but instead of addressing that, we are discussing a poc filtering system. I really fail to see the logic. (edited)
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@Anthonyra I’ve had my questions about this HIP and directed some criticism at it (and I did vote no), but I do appreciate your openness and responses here. Hopefully you had your asbestos suit on before the HIP went live 😂
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mistakeNot
So you finally got to the root cause, but instead of addressing that, we are discussing a poc filtering system. I really fail to see the logic. (edited)
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 11:00 AM
This is all about relayed hotspots?
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captainhindsight
This is all about relayed hotspots?
Their impact in poc activities due to poor network design on the backhauling side
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captainhindsight
This is all about relayed hotspots?
No, it’s about hotspots that only provide coverage in one direction.
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mistakeNot
So you finally got to the root cause, but instead of addressing that, we are discussing a poc filtering system. I really fail to see the logic. (edited)
This HIP is meant to define optimal coverage, the relay and p2p issues make this ratio less accurate hence the compensation factor is in place if this comes before (needs a vote still) light hotspots
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mistakeNot
That happens in any mobile network. However like any mobile network and technology, Lora is uplink limited, so downlink should never be an issue
the point is you need PoC to prove that a hotspot is capable of downlinking. To anthony's point, a well optimized hotspot will be able to do both downlink and uplink. This HIP sets a ratio of the two to help incentivize hotspot owners to setup their hotspot in a way that does both well
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cheezedawg
No, it’s about hotspots that only provide coverage in one direction.
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 11:03 AM
That's what I thought
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Radrob
the point is you need PoC to prove that a hotspot is capable of downlinking. To anthony's point, a well optimized hotspot will be able to do both downlink and uplink. This HIP sets a ratio of the two to help incentivize hotspot owners to setup their hotspot in a way that does both well
I got his point quite clearly, is just that i don’t agree with it. If a hotspot can do uplink (witness) then 99.99% it will be able to do downlink (beacon). Furthermore you are basically trying to give optimal coverage at the miner height, whereas the sensors will be lower to ground in most cases.
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Radrob
the point is you need PoC to prove that a hotspot is capable of downlinking. To anthony's point, a well optimized hotspot will be able to do both downlink and uplink. This HIP sets a ratio of the two to help incentivize hotspot owners to setup their hotspot in a way that does both well
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 11:05 AM
Which we cant. Because we get to beacon 4 times a day if we're really lucky or, more commonly, not for days at a time. The HIP is predicated on fundamentally broken mechanisms
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Radrob
the point is you need PoC to prove that a hotspot is capable of downlinking. To anthony's point, a well optimized hotspot will be able to do both downlink and uplink. This HIP sets a ratio of the two to help incentivize hotspot owners to setup their hotspot in a way that does both well
People get nervous because right now a lot of the numbers here depend on things currently outside of hotspot owners control.
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captainhindsight
Which we cant. Because we get to beacon 4 times a day if we're really lucky or, more commonly, not for days at a time. The HIP is predicated on fundamentally broken mechanisms
1) there is significant buffer in this HIP for that problem. It's known and accounted for (plus you can always suggest different ratios) 2) those problems go away with light hotspots
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cheezedawg
People get nervous because right now a lot of the numbers here depend on things currently outside of hotspot owners control.
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 11:06 AM
Correct
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i cant vote
11:06
i click vote
11:06
it says open app
11:07
then nothing
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cheezedawg
People get nervous because right now a lot of the numbers here depend on things currently outside of hotspot owners control.
I get that, but how many people have checked and are actually affected? If the number is high, suggest new ratios instead of throwing out the idea.
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Radrob
1) there is significant buffer in this HIP for that problem. It's known and accounted for (plus you can always suggest different ratios) 2) those problems go away with light hotspots
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 11:07 AM
Light hotspots are mooted for 2022 Q1. So why bother?
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captainhindsight
Light hotspots are mooted for 2022 Q1. So why bother?
why bother what?
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sebifam
i cant vote
Same happens to me!
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Radrob
why bother what?
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 11:08 AM
With this HIP
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ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ 01/13/2022 11:10 AM
Is there a graph that shows for a given hotspot the following: * for all witnessed hotspots (with < 18 witnesses or possibly < 16) what percentage of the time does the given hotspot actually witness all the beacons sent by those other hotspots? That should indicate how often that hotspot is providing coverage, but not getting rewarded for doing so because of some RF issue. Filtering those that are 18+ because there isn't sufficient data on the chain to be able to see if hotspot actually received beacon or it was just dropped due to the current randomized witness limit. (edited)
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captainhindsight
With this HIP
because light hotspots only fix the "how often do you beacon" problem, not the how far can you beacon problem
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Radrob
because light hotspots only fix the "how often do you beacon" problem, not the how far can you beacon problem
What is how far can you beacon problem?
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Radrob
because light hotspots only fix the "how often do you beacon" problem, not the how far can you beacon problem
how far is not up to the beaconer, but to the random 18 list of possible witnesses
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I want sure on the HIP! On the same page has Heefi at first! I hope it works but hope it doesn't hinder us guys who work hard to provide the best coverage! Although freat video between you guys it explained it realy well.... I think the black list is the best idea to eradicator all of this.... people like finding gamers and posting them into chats.... if you had a small team just looking into each complaint...could even reward the snitches In HNT
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SmokingMirth 01/13/2022 11:14 AM
How to vote?
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@Radrob thank you for that bit of clarification. I’ve been out of the loop dealing with some things.
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And stop these guys doing the videos advising to place 5 miners in one house- like the one that was posted today on you tube.... this then impacts 20k views to start up the gaming train using VPNs
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Radrob
because light hotspots only fix the "how often do you beacon" problem, not the how far can you beacon problem
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 11:15 AM
Since when was how far I can beacon a problem?
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mistakeNot
how far is not up to the beaconer, but to the random 18 list of possible witnesses
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 11:17 AM
Yet another thing we can't control. This deck is massively stacked against honest hotspot owners doing their best to provide optimal coverage - the very bedrock of 'The People's Network '.
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captainhindsight
Since when was how far I can beacon a problem?
sorry...clafication: how far you can beacon relative to how far you can you witness (really how many hotspots and not distance, but I am using distance as a proxy for that) (edited)
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Radrob
sorry...clafication: how far you can beacon relative to how far you can you witness (really how many hotspots and not distance, but I am using distance as a proxy for that) (edited)
both are random, the only way is to compare a common list, which under current circumstances can have very few items.
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instead of all these questions, where can we read the damn HIP ourselves
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@Radrob thing is though if you’re able to find sweet spots, avoid any interference with hydro lines, microwave towers and so forth you can have an antennas range increase farther than what is normally possible.
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Radrob
sorry...clafication: how far you can beacon relative to how far you can you witness (really how many hotspots and not distance, but I am using distance as a proxy for that) (edited)
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 11:19 AM
There's a hotspot approximately 44km away. I've witnessed its beacon, its witnessed mine. I see no problem
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Can anyone give me a summary on what this means
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ChIno773
@Radrob thing is though if you’re able to find sweet spots, avoid any interference with hydro lines, microwave towers and so forth you can have an antennas range increase farther than what is normally possible.
or if you shoot across a body of water or along an urban canyon
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captainhindsight 01/13/2022 11:21 AM
And why are we suddenly switching from beacon/witness frequency to beacon/witness distance? Let's try to stay on topic. (edited)
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@Radrob groundwave antennas, using a cobra splitter with two coaxial cables and then have them go down in a v towards the area you want the signal creating a directional antenna
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where can I read the HIP
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There are many ways
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sebass
Can anyone give me a summary on what this means
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 11:21 AM
Go and read the HIP! (edited)
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Where ?
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Brainstormer 01/13/2022 11:22 AM
@Anthonyra i plugged in 182 for witness list, the etl shows me that the cap is 290, shouldn't it be 291?
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Carl-bot BOT 01/13/2022 11:22 AM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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Damar
instead of all these questions, where can we read the damn HIP ourselves
I spent 6 hours yesterday reading the HIP and watched the video , and almost all day today. Still not clear to me
😂 2
11:23
everyone, go read, stop theorizing
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New terms keep poping up! First 360, then 576; now how far a beacon😩
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we are getting derailed, discussing details and numbers when the problem lays in the initial assumption... 😦
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Where do I go to vote? I live in Chicago we are corrupt as hell
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With the ratio currently in the HIP, do we know what % of hotspots are impacted? The number is going to be much lower than I initially thought. (edited)
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ok, so as I understand this, the HIP has nothing to do with witnessing challenges
11:28
it just caps the limit of hotspots that can witness YOUR sent beacons
11:28
just FYI, whoever wrote the HIP should take a lesson in teaching because it was terribly explained
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Agree
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Brainstormer 01/13/2022 11:30 AM
Can someone that's done the math chime in here, is the only variable that changes the witness limit cap just the Witness List (Total Witness on Explorer) ?
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Carl-bot BOT 01/13/2022 11:30 AM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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hforn
What is the real benefit of this? How could it positively affect rewards?
https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11ucoaFRrnYUsg2TTNSjqGTR1dxzTuq3juViWyDLZecN21nXQBx As long as the hip prevents fraudulent miners like this I'm happy. 0 witnesses, no outgoing signal, but 2600 beacons received. Sure 😄
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Damar
ok, so as I understand this, the HIP has nothing to do with witnessing challenges
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 11:31 AM
We don't witness challenges. We witness beacons. One of us has got the entire thing back to front. I don't think it's me.
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whatever, the challenger makes a hotspot send a beacon which we then witness
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brybo86
Where do I go to vote? I live in Chicago we are corrupt as hell
Helium Vote is where the Helium Community comes together to make decisions on the Network.
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either way, in explorer, we have a unique witness list
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Carl-bot BOT 01/13/2022 11:32 AM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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inzy
And stop these guys doing the videos advising to place 5 miners in one house- like the one that was posted today on you tube.... this then impacts 20k views to start up the gaming train using VPNs
Hear hear. It's blatantly advertised how to spoof and game the system
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these are the hotspots who send beacons around me and who I witness them doing that
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Damar
whatever, the challenger makes a hotspot send a beacon which we then witness
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 11:33 AM
No - not whatever - when YOU are instructing people to read the HIP! I think you need to read it again yourself
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I’ve read it and it’s concerning. As a former comms jockey who is actually trying to get excellent coverage and has an understanding of antenna propagation along with other forms of communication it does worry me that it would affect my earnings because I’ve been honest in doing the work and research. It’s extremely frustrating
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stop arguing semantics
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Damar
it just caps the limit of hotspots that can witness YOUR sent beacons
Brainstormer 01/13/2022 11:33 AM
or perhaps, you won't get rewarded for witnessing, because the beaconer's cap is reached?
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Brainstormer
or perhaps, you won't get rewarded for witnessing, because the beaconer's cap is reached?
is that what its saying?
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BENIFITS FOR HIP-42 and Negatives?
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I've only got 34 witnesses on my list, and thats actually a recent high - most of them i see multiple times daily
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SmashMode
BENIFITS FOR HIP-42 and Negatives?
Ow god it'd you again! Is it working yet?
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ChIno773
I’ve read it and it’s concerning. As a former comms jockey who is actually trying to get excellent coverage and has an understanding of antenna propagation along with other forms of communication it does worry me that it would affect my earnings because I’ve been honest in doing the work and research. It’s extremely frustrating
A significant % of the rewards go to cheaters. They are stealing the light from your proper setups too. That's frustrating. When the algoritm works well, you are not impacted
11:35
It can actually increase rewards for good, honest setups
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@inzy No still down. LoL. At Blockchain Height: 1,178,728
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ok thanks and greatly appreciated
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so If I am not beaconing on one of my hotspots it likely means that that hotspots ports are blocked right? also challenges aren't working (edited)
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Damar
stop arguing semantics
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 11:35 AM
Stop telling people they need to read a document you've clearly misunderstood yourself
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thanks @zzeddd
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captainhindsight
Stop telling people they need to read a document you've clearly misunderstood yourself
one more word and i'm blocking you asshat lol
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captainhindsight
There's a hotspot approximately 44km away. I've witnessed its beacon, its witnessed mine. I see no problem
i dont see a problem with that either! however, there are setups that aren't capable of that. If you had a setup that can hear 1000 hotspots, but only be heard by 10 (im making up numbers just to make a point), is that an optimal setup? (edited)
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ChIno773
I’ve read it and it’s concerning. As a former comms jockey who is actually trying to get excellent coverage and has an understanding of antenna propagation along with other forms of communication it does worry me that it would affect my earnings because I’ve been honest in doing the work and research. It’s extremely frustrating
this isn't technical chino, not in slightest and bear no resemblance with anything you can think of a telco network
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Damar
I've only got 34 witnesses on my list, and thats actually a recent high - most of them i see multiple times daily
Brainstormer 01/13/2022 11:36 AM
have you checked your hotspot on etl to see what your cap would be and if it would affect you? if my calculation is correct, your cap is at 54 (edited)
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SmashMode
BENIFITS FOR HIP-42 and Negatives?
Benefits- promotes more “optimal” bidirectional network coverage, can weed out some cheaters Cons- might impact earnings for some people based on things outside of their control
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SmashMode
@inzy No still down. LoL. At Blockchain Height: 1,178,728
Try and jump up n down 3 times then bang it on your head..... not sure why but seems to work... ❤️
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i think bottomline, if the HIP isn't clear, it should be voted no
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Damar
one more word and i'm blocking you asshat lol
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 11:36 AM
Do it moron
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if and when it can be properly explained to the people voting it, we shouldn't implement changes
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Brainstormer
have you checked your hotspot on etl to see what your cap would be and if it would affect you? if my calculation is correct, your cap is at 54 (edited)
Whats an etl?
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Damar
i think bottomline, if the HIP isn't clear, it should be voted no
They have said as long as you beacon you do t loose rewards..... if we do they are liers 🤣
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Explorer reports 534 beacons and 114 witness will I be negatively effected? 0.6 HNT in 24 hrs
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@inzy 😂 Family thinks I am nuts. LoL
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VisionGrid
Whats an etl?
Brainstormer 01/13/2022 11:37 AM
https://etl.dewi.org/question/624-poc-witness-scaling-by-name-hip-42 use a gmail address to login, any other email won't work, must be @gmail.com
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Radrob
i dont see a problem with that either! however, there are setups that aren't capable of that. If you had a setup that can hear 1000 hotspots, but only be heard by 10 (im making up numbers just to make a point), is that an optimal setup? (edited)
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 11:37 AM
Probably not. But I don't, so not seeing the relevance
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Lol for all of my whining here, my hotspot just sent a 5th beacon in the past 18 hours, which I think is the most I’ve ever done in a day 😂
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captainhindsight
Probably not. But I don't, so not seeing the relevance
are you the only hotspot on the network?
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brybo86
Explorer reports 534 beacons and 114 witness will I be negatively effected? 0.6 HNT in 24 hrs
Plug your hotspot into the tool linked in the HIP
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Radrob
are you the only hotspot on the network?
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 11:39 AM
I'm not going to dignify that with an answer. What's your point?
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cheezedawg
Plug your hotspot into the tool linked in the HIP
What do you do just put your miners name in to see if your effected?
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Damar
i think bottomline, if the HIP isn't clear, it should be voted no
That’s where I’m at and why I voted no.
👍 2
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How do I contribute to this temperature vote my helium app told me about?
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inzy
What do you do just put your miners name in to see if your effected?
Yeah. Or miner address.
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Radrob
are you the only hotspot on the network?
Brainstormer 01/13/2022 11:40 AM
does the math for calculating the witness limit cap use the hotspot's beacon rate ? I don't see anything in the formula that takes in consideration of how much I beacon
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Radrob
are you the only hotspot on the network?
are you the only one holding the truth? cool down a bit
❓ 1
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captainhindsight
I'm not going to dignify that with an answer. What's your point?
my point is that this HIP helps incentivize people to get setups that are more capable of bidirectional communications.
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Radrob
i dont see a problem with that either! however, there are setups that aren't capable of that. If you had a setup that can hear 1000 hotspots, but only be heard by 10 (im making up numbers just to make a point), is that an optimal setup? (edited)
That is gaming, if you can only witness specific miners, most likely they’ve in the same room, should be on deny list
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Mine has got scared today and beaconed about 4 times as someone said hip42 👀
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@mistakeNot I’m in a bowl surrounded by hydro lines with microwave towers that impact the performance. Add humidity, swamp followed by more hydro lines. Have had to actually try multiple configurations and placements just to be able to get the sweet spot.
👍 1
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cheezedawg
Plug your hotspot into the tool linked in the HIP
On GitHub? I don't see the link?
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Radrob
my point is that this HIP helps incentivize people to get setups that are more capable of bidirectional communications.
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 11:41 AM
How does one do that?
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ChIno773
@mistakeNot I’m in a bowl surrounded by hydro lines with microwave towers that impact the performance. Add humidity, swamp followed by more hydro lines. Have had to actually try multiple configurations and placements just to be able to get the sweet spot.
I'm surrounded by hills, with only 10-15 degrees free to one direction 🙂 shake hands mate
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@mistakeNot as well as the type of mast being used and if the items around are metal affect the signal.
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I’ve read the hip and hope someone can clarify. I’ve had hotspots that haven’t beaconed for a week- some with tech problems and some just through the randomness of the network. How do they get back on the good list so to speak?
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captainhindsight
How does one do that?
by adding a ratio of beacons/witnesses such that a hotspot is rewarded for being within that ratio like this HIP suggests
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Brainstormer
https://etl.dewi.org/question/624-poc-witness-scaling-by-name-hip-42 use a gmail address to login, any other email won't work, must be @gmail.com
My password doesn’t work, it tells me to contact administrator, do you know how to do that?
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Ok Voting yes to hip 42. Have a great day Everyone!
🤦‍♂️ 2
💯 1
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brybo86
On GitHub? I don't see the link?
Brainstormer gave the link above
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ChIno773
@mistakeNot as well as the type of mast being used and if the items around are metal affect the signal.
explain that to these people, I gave up 😉
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DZ
My password doesn’t work, it tells me to contact administrator, do you know how to do that?
Brainstormer 01/13/2022 11:42 AM
are you using a gmail email address?
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@mistakeNot I wish I had those variables 😂
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A gmail address
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Brainstormer
are you using a gmail email address?
Yes, I used gmail
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@mistakeNot finally one who feels my pain 😂
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cannot run the query
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I send one Beacon a week.
11:43
The rest witnessed
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Radrob
by adding a ratio of beacons/witnesses such that a hotspot is rewarded for being within that ratio like this HIP suggests
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 11:44 AM
No - how would a person get a setup 'more capable of bi- directional communications' - with the emphasis on more. (edited)
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DZ
Yes, I used gmail
Brainstormer 01/13/2022 11:44 AM
at the login page, you click the [sign in with google] and it should ask you which gmail address you want to use (or maybe just me because i have multiple gmails)
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SmashMode
I send one Beacon a week.
Ugh. That sucks.
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@mistakeNot I was a combat radop so I actually find this stuff fun in.
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I have one hs that has never beaconed (edited)
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cheezedawg
Brainstormer gave the link above
For some reason I have never been able to login to the etl dewi
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So I am going no
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Damar
cannot run the query
Brainstormer 01/13/2022 11:44 AM
lower case hotspot-3word-name including hyphen. then click the START triangle in the middle of the page (edited)
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ChIno773
@mistakeNot I was a combat radop so I actually find this stuff fun in.
see dm 😉
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Was doing .55 to .67 until my miner quit. 😂
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SmashMode
I send one Beacon a week.
How do you know it's not even come on yet 🤣
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captainhindsight
No - how would a person get a setup 'more capable of bi- directional communications' - with the emphasis on more. (edited)
Maybe more important is weeding out the opposite- people that intentionally set up so they can witness a lot but people can’t see them, etc
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"the window was closed before completeing Google authentication" I have tried 3 different accounts all same error (edited)
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brybo86
For some reason I have never been able to login to the etl dewi
Bummer.
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@inzy every app just says I am screwed. Diagnostic says everything looks good. Just no communication.
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SmashMode
@inzy every app just says I am screwed. Diagnostic says everything looks good. Just no communication.
Just ride it out man!
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Brainstormer
lower case hotspot-3word-name including hyphen. then click the START triangle in the middle of the page (edited)
says i'm not affected by HIP42
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captainhindsight
No - how would a person get a setup 'more capable of bi- directional communications' - with the emphasis on more. (edited)
ah i see. That depends on the situation of course, but for instance, a setup with tons of height and an extremely high gain antenna may overshoot some area below it and therefore not able to downlink to sensors in that area. That setup however, could still be able to receive uplinks from that area.
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Have you got a link where to check?
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Damar
says i'm not affected by HIP42
Brainstormer 01/13/2022 11:46 AM
most people aren't. and if you do the math, it doesn't seem like it would for most cases. (edited)
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@inzy How you voting? I am going your way.
11:46
LoL
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Brainstormer 01/13/2022 11:47 AM
my issue is im trying to understand the math because it doesn't make sense to me
💯 1
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SmashMode
@inzy How you voting? I am going your way.
It doesn't matter mate! It's happening lol
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cheezedawg
Maybe more important is weeding out the opposite- people that intentionally set up so they can witness a lot but people can’t see them, etc
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 11:48 AM
Exactly. So the claim that the purpose of the HIP is to encourage people to get setups more capable of bi-directional communication is, as far as I can see, baseless.
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@inzy I am just going to throw my MNTD to it and see which one it sticks to because that's all my miner is good for. 😂
🤣 2
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Brainstormer 01/13/2022 11:48 AM
Can someone tell me how the 5 Day Receipts Limit on ETL result is calculated? i didn't find an explanation
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DZ
My password doesn’t work, it tells me to contact administrator, do you know how to do that?
Same for me
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inzy
It doesn't matter mate! It's happening lol
I keep < 10 HNT in my wallet (the rest is staked) so my vote didn’t count for much 😂
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Cannot run the query: missing required parameters: #{"name"}, does anyone know how to add name?
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To the 64 ∆
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Brainstormer
Can someone tell me how the 5 Day Receipts Limit on ETL result is calculated? i didn't find an explanation
That’s what I’ve been trying to get too
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Just multiple by 3.14
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DZ
Cannot run the query: missing required parameters: #{"name"}, does anyone know how to add name?
your-hotspot-name in the little blue box top left
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cheezedawg
I keep < 10 HNT in my wallet (the rest is staked) so my vote didn’t count for much 😂
Ye be 10 guys at the top that made vote 🤣
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DZ
Cannot run the query: missing required parameters: #{"name"}, does anyone know how to add name?
Try the one to query by address instead. That worked for me.
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cheezedawg
Try the one to query by address instead. That worked for me.
Kk. Thanks
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We all just pretend to have an input! A bit like politics 🤣
😂 1
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We do we vote on the super flux capacitor act?
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SmashMode
Just multiple by 3.14
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Radrob
ah i see. That depends on the situation of course, but for instance, a setup with tons of height and an extremely high gain antenna may overshoot some area below it and therefore not able to downlink to sensors in that area. That setup however, could still be able to receive uplinks from that area.
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 11:50 AM
I think antenna gain works equally in both directions - @mistakeNot ?
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brybo86
"the window was closed before completeing Google authentication" I have tried 3 different accounts all same error (edited)
I can't even login to etl Dewi with test@test.com test123
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Radrob
ah i see. That depends on the situation of course, but for instance, a setup with tons of height and an extremely high gain antenna may overshoot some area below it and therefore not able to downlink to sensors in that area. That setup however, could still be able to receive uplinks from that area.
That's called an umbrella site and has its use in almost any network. It might reach areas where no other hotspot is able to serve
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Had any for a link where I can. See effected hot spots please?
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SmashMode has been silenced for 1m mute spacearrowRight Reason: Posting NSFW Websites
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The HIP checker! So to speak 🤣
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Who can check my hotspot on etl Dewi hip 42 tool?
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captainhindsight
I think antenna gain works equally in both directions - @mistakeNot ?
Yes, the gain of the antenna is the same (edited)
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mistakeNot
Yes, the gain of the antenna is the same (edited)
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 11:54 AM
Thought I remembered a friend teaching me that 🙂
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mistakeNot
Yes, the gain of the antenna is the same (edited)
The whole path actually from hotspot ports to sensor or other hotspot ports is identical
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cheezedawg
Try the one to query by address instead. That worked for me.
It still says can’t find my addresses 🥲
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Who can check my hotspot on the hip 42 checker?
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Brainstormer 01/13/2022 11:56 AM
the first sentence of this HIP says "This proposal intends to enforce a hard limit on the number of witness receipts a hotspot is capable of claiming" this sounds like its a limit on the BEACONER. which of course affect the witness to that beacon. so its not a limit on you witnessing other's beacon (unless they're capped) (edited)
👆 2
11:57
someone please correct me if this is wrong
11:57
im going nuts trying to figure out the math and the math doesn't show that im limited on how many times i witness
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Brainstormer
the first sentence of this HIP says "This proposal intends to enforce a hard limit on the number of witness receipts a hotspot is capable of claiming" this sounds like its a limit on the BEACONER. which of course affect the witness to that beacon. so its not a limit on you witnessing other's beacon (unless they're capped) (edited)
Max Daily Witness Receipt Limit witness_limit_cap = witness_list * (blocks_per_day / poc_challenge_interval) / witness_list_bucket_size * compensation_factor witness_limit_cap = 360 * (1440 / 360) / 5 * 2 witness_limit_cap = 576
11:58
he also says that if network runs as intended, the 2 becomes a 1
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captainhindsight
Thought I remembered a friend teaching me that 🙂
I'm still at a loss what they try to achieve, once is clear the limitation comes from the blockchain capability in transfering data in a timely manner 😳
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so the witness cap would be halved
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Damar
Max Daily Witness Receipt Limit witness_limit_cap = witness_list * (blocks_per_day / poc_challenge_interval) / witness_list_bucket_size * compensation_factor witness_limit_cap = 360 * (1440 / 360) / 5 * 2 witness_limit_cap = 576
Brainstormer 01/13/2022 11:59 AM
all those numbers to input , the only number that changes is the witness_list all the other numbers are chain variables. so it doesn't care how much you beacon.
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Energetic rainbow butterfly can someone check this hotspot on the tool
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Damar
he also says that if network runs as intended, the 2 becomes a 1
Brainstormer 01/13/2022 12:00 PM
2 becomes 1 is not a big deal to me. the pie is fixed, we either get more or less based on performance.
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Brainstormer
2 becomes 1 is not a big deal to me. the pie is fixed, we either get more or less based on performance.
i agree the math doesn't check out
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Brainstormer 01/13/2022 12:01 PM
and i agree with the above, the friggin hip wasn't written very well
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captainhindsight 01/13/2022 12:01 PM
Anyone got the link for the checker?
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captainhindsight
Anyone got the link for the checker?
Brainstormer 01/13/2022 12:02 PM
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Brainstormer
and i agree with the above, the friggin hip wasn't written very well
like, these are my columns: 34 183 272 54 false
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Brainstormer
and i agree with the above, the friggin hip wasn't written very well
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 12:02 PM
Let's be honest - it was written rather poorly. It shouldn't be this difficult to follow. According to the author though it's our fault if we can't understand it.
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oh wait, ok, so my 34 witnesses gives me a total cap of 54 witnesses
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Damar
oh wait, ok, so my 34 witnesses gives me a total cap of 54 witnesses
Brainstormer 01/13/2022 12:03 PM
54 witness cap is per day (edited)
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gotcha ok
12:03
i'm starting to follow you more here, lets keep pulling this thread
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Brainstormer 01/13/2022 12:03 PM
your unique witness,
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Why can't I login to etl.dewi? I have tried on 4 different devices, phone tablets and computer , and different accounts as well as test@test.com test123
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Brainstormer 01/13/2022 12:03 PM
you would have to see a whole lot of unique witness to meet that cap (edited)
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brybo86
Why can't I login to etl.dewi? I have tried on 4 different devices, phone tablets and computer , and different accounts as well as test@test.com test123
I think they just disabled the test@test account... and are trying to migrate to a less stringent sign on situation
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captainhindsight 01/13/2022 12:04 PM
Youll need an administrator to create a Metabase account before you can use Google to log in.
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so basically it's saying no more that 54 different hotspots can witness all the beacons I send in a day
12:04
Anthonra wrote this, can't he explain
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So how can we use the checker then?
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Brainstormer 01/13/2022 12:04 PM
test@test is disbled long ago. you need to use a xxx@gmail.com to sign in. you can create a new gmail to do that
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Brainstormer
test@test is disbled long ago. you need to use a xxx@gmail.com to sign in. you can create a new gmail to do that
I tried my 2 Gmail acct ,and my wife
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captainhindsight
Youll need an administrator to create a Metabase account before you can use Google to log in.
No, any @gmail.com address can be used for login.
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brybo86
Why can't I login to etl.dewi? I have tried on 4 different devices, phone tablets and computer , and different accounts as well as test@test.com test123
Has to be gmail
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Brainstormer 01/13/2022 12:06 PM
click the [sign in with google], not the one in the bottom that says you can use email (edited)
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Brainstormer
you would have to see a whole lot of unique witness to meet that cap (edited)
so lets go back, whats with the witness receipts and the 5 day receipts limit
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Damar
so basically it's saying no more that 54 different hotspots can witness all the beacons I send in a day
If your wits list is 34. This HIP when implemented will create a cap of the number of witness receipts (yellow witnesses on activity on explorer) your hotspot can claim per day for rewards. The quick napkin math is wits list * 8 / 5. The details of this can be found in the HIP. Which means that your hotspot, 34 * 8 / 5 = 54 witness receipts per day. A witness receipt is when you witness someone else's beacon.
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Brainstormer 01/13/2022 12:07 PM
i have no idea how the 5 day receipt limit is calculate
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Error " the window was closed before completing Google authentication" etl Dewi login error
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Anthonyra
If your wits list is 34. This HIP when implemented will create a cap of the number of witness receipts (yellow witnesses on activity on explorer) your hotspot can claim per day for rewards. The quick napkin math is wits list * 8 / 5. The details of this can be found in the HIP. Which means that your hotspot, 34 * 8 / 5 = 54 witness receipts per day. A witness receipt is when you witness someone else's beacon.
Brainstormer 01/13/2022 12:07 PM
so this affects the beaconer right? and indirectly affect the witness to that beacon (not get paid)
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ok, so it doesn't matter how many total witnessers there are on each witness receipt
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Brainstormer
click the [sign in with google], not the one in the bottom that says you can use email (edited)
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 12:08 PM
Like I did? See above
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OK< i'm starting to understand. If you don't send successful beacons, you'll have a low witness count, which will then affect how many yellow witness receipts you're entitled to profit off of
12:08
alright alright alright, we got this thing licked fellas
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captainhindsight
Like I did? See above
Brainstormer 01/13/2022 12:09 PM
do this. open a tab, sign into your gmail email. then open the tab to go to etl and it should ask you go log in with google without asking for pw again
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Anthonyra
If your wits list is 34. This HIP when implemented will create a cap of the number of witness receipts (yellow witnesses on activity on explorer) your hotspot can claim per day for rewards. The quick napkin math is wits list * 8 / 5. The details of this can be found in the HIP. Which means that your hotspot, 34 * 8 / 5 = 54 witness receipts per day. A witness receipt is when you witness someone else's beacon.
Bro - edit the HIP and put some examples in there for people like you did for me.
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Anthonyra
If your wits list is 34. This HIP when implemented will create a cap of the number of witness receipts (yellow witnesses on activity on explorer) your hotspot can claim per day for rewards. The quick napkin math is wits list * 8 / 5. The details of this can be found in the HIP. Which means that your hotspot, 34 * 8 / 5 = 54 witness receipts per day. A witness receipt is when you witness someone else's beacon.
I just had a realization- I was looking at the 7d ave # of beacons that I witnessed, but the limit you are proposing is per day, so I’m well under the limit instead of way over 😂
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Damar
OK< i'm starting to understand. If you don't send successful beacons, you'll have a low witness count, which will then affect how many yellow witness receipts you're entitled to profit off of
Brainstormer 01/13/2022 12:10 PM
this would mean even if you don't beacon for 1 day, it won't affect you, it'll only affect you if you go beyond a few days?
12:11
as your witness list goes lower because of no beacon, so does the limit
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Carl-bot BOT 01/13/2022 12:11 PM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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Brainstormer
this would mean even if you don't beacon for 1 day, it won't affect you, it'll only affect you if you go beyond a few days?
yes, your rolling 5 day average is what I"m assuming
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Damar
yes, your rolling 5 day average is what I"m assuming
From the data I've looked at most people only start to get really hurt if they don't beacon for more then 3 days. At which point you should take a look at the setup for issues...
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but i guess this also hinges upon the whole beaconing algorithm
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Brainstormer
this would mean even if you don't beacon for 1 day, it won't affect you, it'll only affect you if you go beyond a few days?
Yeah- which with my goldspot means that every once in a while it craps the bed and loses sync with the blockchain so I flatline for 36 hours while it’s catching up, and now it could take a couple more days after that before earnings fully recover. 😀
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also, there is a huge problem with challenger hotspots who make me beacon and i get 0 witnesses
12:12
and it turns out that it seems to be somehow on their end
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Just tried to contact @Anthonyra directly to give him a real world example of this impacting a legitimate miner (me) that that has done everything possible (spending a lot of money trying to get the best setup possible) with his antenna set up (getting miner up 128ft high) to up his earnings to about 1 HNT a day- but he doesn't accept direct messages... I don't beacon everyday- in fact didn't beacon at all the 9th, 10th, and 11th. This needs to be adjusted... Everyone's set up is different with different terrains and other factors...
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my sent beacons have a large variance in witnesses that I'm not sure I undrestand. Sometimes I think it's due to rain, other times I think it's a bad challenger
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Damar
also, there is a huge problem with challenger hotspots who make me beacon and i get 0 witnesses
Hopefully fixed with light hotspots
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BadTrader
Just tried to contact @Anthonyra directly to give him a real world example of this impacting a legitimate miner (me) that that has done everything possible (spending a lot of money trying to get the best setup possible) with his antenna set up (getting miner up 128ft high) to up his earnings to about 1 HNT a day- but he doesn't accept direct messages... I don't beacon everyday- in fact didn't beacon at all the 9th, 10th, and 11th. This needs to be adjusted... Everyone's set up is different with different terrains and other factors...
Good luck.
🙏 1
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cheezedawg
Yeah- which with my goldspot means that every once in a while it craps the bed and loses sync with the blockchain so I flatline for 36 hours while it’s catching up, and now it could take a couple more days after that before earnings fully recover. 😀
Brainstormer 01/13/2022 12:13 PM
not really, because the limit is on witness receipt, which affects your beacon reward, which isn't that big of a deal anyways. you still get paid normally for witnessing. (edited)
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Brainstormer
not really, because the limit is on witness receipt, which affects your beacon reward, which isn't that big of a deal anyways. you still get paid normally for witnessing. (edited)
unless you go past your new witness receipt limit, which will be based on how many witnesses you've got
12:14
the good thing is the unique witness list isn't an average
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Carl-bot BOT 01/13/2022 12:14 PM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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Brainstormer
not really, because the limit is on witness receipt, which affects your beacon reward, which isn't that big of a deal anyways. you still get paid normally for witnessing. (edited)
What I mean is that when I flatline like that, my 5-day average of witnesses will decrease which will lower my witness receipt limit.
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this bot needs to stfu lol
💯 2
12:15
it's not an average cheezedawn, it's a sum
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cheezedawg
What I mean is that when I flatline like that, my 5-day average of witnesses will decrease which will lower my witness receipt limit.
Brainstormer 01/13/2022 12:15 PM
your witness receipt limit is on Your beacon isn't it? (edited)
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Damar
it's not an average cheezedawn, it's a sum
Ok- that decreases too 😀
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Brainstormer 01/13/2022 12:15 PM
so your beacon reward is small compared to your witness reward
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cheezedawg
Ok- that decreases too 😀
I suppose. Hopefully, kyou're hitting all your witnesses every day, so only after 5 days of no witnesses you'd go down.
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Brainstormer
so your beacon reward is small compared to your witness reward
I get more from witnessing than beaconing. I’m not impacted by HIP42 tho
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cheezedawg
I get more from witnessing than beaconing. I’m not impacted by HIP42 tho
Brainstormer 01/13/2022 12:17 PM
thats normal. witnessing reward makes up most of the activities
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Anthonyra
From the data I've looked at most people only start to get really hurt if they don't beacon for more then 3 days. At which point you should take a look at the setup for issues...
Anthony, so question 2 - will this HIP somehow increase the amount of beacons hotspots around me send?
12:17
Like, if I stand to gain from this, to reach for my max witness receipt limit
12:17
others will need to beacon more
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Damar
Anthony, so question 2 - will this HIP somehow increase the amount of beacons hotspots around me send?
Nothing directly driven by the blockchain. But if everyone needs to make sure they beacon to earn from witnesses. Then I'd expect more beacons will take place. But if people still don't care and don't fix issues... then it won't. This HIP doesn't guarantee beacons it's meant to incentives people to setup theirs the best they can in the eyes of PoC (edited)
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Anthonyra
Nothing directly driven by the blockchain. But if everyone needs to make sure they beacon to earn from witnesses. Then I'd expect more beacons will take place. But if people still don't care and don't fix issues... then it won't. This HIP doesn't guarantee beacons it's meant to incentives people to setup theirs the best they can in the eyes of PoC (edited)
people ain't gonna do shit after they're done setting it up
12:21
lets be honest
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Mrflipsflipping 01/13/2022 12:21 PM
If you are RELAYED look forward to getting your pay halved again or more!
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there's the outdoor antenna gang, and eveyrone else lol
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Brainstormer
do this. open a tab, sign into your gmail email. then open the tab to go to etl and it should ask you go log in with google without asking for pw again
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 12:22 PM
Doesn't work. Absolute sh** I give up.
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Damar
people ain't gonna do shit after they're done setting it up
If they don't get decent rewards they're more motivated
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Mrflipsflipping 01/13/2022 12:22 PM
IF YOU VOTE YES ON THIS AND YOU ARE "RELAYED" or are running on a "MOBILE NETWORK" You are going to see your earnings diced! Spread tge word
💩 1
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Anthonyra
Nothing directly driven by the blockchain. But if everyone needs to make sure they beacon to earn from witnesses. Then I'd expect more beacons will take place. But if people still don't care and don't fix issues... then it won't. This HIP doesn't guarantee beacons it's meant to incentives people to setup theirs the best they can in the eyes of PoC (edited)
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 12:22 PM
It doesn't
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Anthonyra
If your wits list is 34. This HIP when implemented will create a cap of the number of witness receipts (yellow witnesses on activity on explorer) your hotspot can claim per day for rewards. The quick napkin math is wits list * 8 / 5. The details of this can be found in the HIP. Which means that your hotspot, 34 * 8 / 5 = 54 witness receipts per day. A witness receipt is when you witness someone else's beacon.
Brainstormer 01/13/2022 12:23 PM
Mine is 182, what is my limit?
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Mrflipsflipping
IF YOU VOTE YES ON THIS AND YOU ARE "RELAYED" or are running on a "MOBILE NETWORK" You are going to see your earnings diced! Spread tge word
nope
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Mrflipsflipping 01/13/2022 12:23 PM
Read the second page more closely
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Mrflipsflipping
Read the second page more closely
you are misunderstanding and making a blanket statement. being on mobile doesn't mean you're affected if your setup is proper.
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Mrflipsflipping 01/13/2022 12:24 PM
IT SPECIFICALLY MENTIONS RELAYED CONNECTIONS AND ALSO MOBILE CONNECTIONS
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Brainstormer 01/13/2022 12:24 PM
no need to shout
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captainhindsight
Doesn't work. Absolute sh** I give up.
It just opened for me .....but I had to use Firefox instead of chrome????
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Brainstormer
Mine is 182, what is my limit?
291 witness receipts per day.. I don't think the SQL query does fancy rounding due to timeout concerns (limitations of the tool) (edited)
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Mrflipsflipping 01/13/2022 12:25 PM
A proper setup is "not relayed guy
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@Anthonyra I've done everything possible for my location to get an ideal antenna set up and help the network and per the test page I will be impacted.
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Brainstormer
Mine is 182, what is my limit?
multiply it out
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Mrflipsflipping
IT SPECIFICALLY MENTIONS RELAYED CONNECTIONS AND ALSO MOBILE CONNECTIONS
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Anthonyra
291 witness receipts per day.. I don't think the SQL query does fancy rounding due to timeout concerns (limitations of the tool) (edited)
Brainstormer 01/13/2022 12:25 PM
right, because its suppose to be 291 but etl tells me its 290 ok, then i got the math right.
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I don't see this limiting people in dense areas though as was written... if you have tons of unique witnesses
12:26
then you'll have a very high cap for witness receipts
12:26
i feel like it's pretty proportional
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I live in a rural area with challenging topography and I am being impacted by this
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Mrflipsflipping 01/13/2022 12:26 PM
The language says if you are relayed you essentially have an "improper setup"
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Damar
I don't see this limiting people in dense areas though as was written... if you have tons of unique witnesses
Brainstormer 01/13/2022 12:26 PM
I think if they do the math, they can see it better. only in edge cases where one would be affected. (edited)
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Damar
I don't see this limiting people in dense areas though as was written... if you have tons of unique witnesses
There's just a higher chance... especially if you don't care to beacon because you make bank on witnesses alone
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Damar
I don't see this limiting people in dense areas though as was written... if you have tons of unique witnesses
Yeah. My location I’m right on the edge of a more populated area and I optimized my roof antenna to try to reach the sparsely populated rural area the other direction. But because I’m close to the populated area most of my activity is from the populated direction.
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Mrflipsflipping
The language says if you are relayed you essentially have an "improper setup"
then clarify that when you speak. Mobile CGNAT can be setup properly and not relayed. you are getting pissy because the HIP mentions it and you don't understand either.
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Anthonyra
There's just a higher chance... especially if you don't care to beacon because you make bank on witnesses alone
Brainstormer 01/13/2022 12:28 PM
am I right to say, its because they beacon with 0 witness
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Brainstormer
am I right to say, its because they beacon with 0 witness
Those setups do exist yes
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Here's my test results:Witnesses 18 Witness receipts 295 5 day Limit: 144 Witness cap 28 Affected by HIP-42 true
🙁 1
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whats your antenna bad trader
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Rak 5.8
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Brainstormer
am I right to say, its because they beacon with 0 witness
Or their local network doesn't allow inbound connections so the network can never reach them to beacon in the first place
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Brainstormer 01/13/2022 12:28 PM
If you beacon with 0 witness, that could also be the fault of the challenger
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so it seems like you aren't sending a strong enough signal with your beacons
12:29
do you get a lot of invalid witnesses when you do beacon?
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No, zero
12:29
Here's my results from beaconing: I sent beacons on the 12th, 8th , 7th, two on the 6th, three on the 5th, and four on the 4th, 3rd, three on the 1st, one on the 30th, three on the 27th, one on the 26th- nothing on the 25th, I was offline/synching for the 24th and 23rd- two on the 22nd, one on the 20th, and one on the 18th..
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Brainstormer
If you beacon with 0 witness, that could also be the fault of the challenger
Correct hence the compensation_factor chain variable
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I don't beacon consistantly
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i wonder why you beacon so infrequently... does it have to do with upnp bein enabled?
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BadTrader
I don't beacon consistantly
Brainstormer 01/13/2022 12:30 PM
can you share your animal name and maybe @Anthonyra can tell you why you will be affected
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For hip checker name-name-name then hit return? Or what open editor?
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Brainstormer
can you share your animal name and maybe @Anthonyra can tell you why you will be affected
I am willing to share it privately with @Anthonyra
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Mrflipsflipping 01/13/2022 12:31 PM
Not everyone who ones these things is a networking specialist. I highly doubt my mobile networks can be open ported! They are not going to give me some different ip address or what not. What they are going to wonder however is what the hell im doing to need this!
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Brainstormer 01/13/2022 12:31 PM
I'm for hip42 for now but I want to see edge cases where it can affect my fellow miners and decide
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Brainstormer
I'm for hip42 for now but I want to see edge cases where it can affect my fellow miners and decide
same
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Mrflipsflipping 01/13/2022 12:32 PM
A lot of people are going to get screwed here.
12:32
A LOT
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yak yak yak yak&
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Brainstormer
I'm for hip42 for now but I want to see edge cases where it can affect my fellow miners and decide
the test page says I will be impacted... I've spent a lot of money trying different antenna set ups and now am at the best I can do at 128ft high
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Mrflipsflipping
A lot of people are going to get screwed here.
Is 3.3% (16,197) of the network A LOT? This also includes edge cases that could redeem themselves with test beacons or the 24 minimum cap suggested in the HIP. (edited)
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Brainstormer 01/13/2022 12:32 PM
if they're hurt because of limitations outside of their own control then perhaps i'll reconsider. but if its because they can't get off relay, well... they can vpn so to me, that's not a good enough reason
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Mrflipsflipping
Not everyone who ones these things is a networking specialist. I highly doubt my mobile networks can be open ported! They are not going to give me some different ip address or what not. What they are going to wonder however is what the hell im doing to need this!
any mobile network can be setup properly. I have mobile and starlink unrelayed. I'm against this HIP42 as well. but I have to call out people that spread FUD without understanding. it's ok not to understand but if you don't - please dont spam and shout. it just looks bad.
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Anthonyra
Is 3.3% (16,197) of the network A LOT? This also includes edge cases that could redeem themselves with test beacons or the 24 minimum cap suggested in the HIP. (edited)
Brainstormer 01/13/2022 12:33 PM
if the 3.3% are gamers, then that's ok to me. if the .01 affected are innocent, i can live with that percentage as well (edited)
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Brainstormer
if the 3.3% are gamers, then that's ok to me. if the .01 affected are innocent, i can live with that percentage as well (edited)
Well, when you make a system that's not built on trust... it hard to tell gamers from people who don't put the work in if there's an issue with their setup...
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Anthonyra
Well, when you make a system that's not built on trust... it hard to tell gamers from people who don't put the work in if there's an issue with their setup...
Brainstormer 01/13/2022 12:35 PM
i don't understand why the math is this way. the penalty is on the witness receipt, which is the reward for beaconing, so its not even that much , or do i have this wrong?
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I want to see 90% of gamers and sppofers eliminated... I've paid to have a member here come and help me set up everything properly... Ask @Deleted User he's been to my house and helped me get my miner 128ft up
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redactd
any mobile network can be setup properly. I have mobile and starlink unrelayed. I'm against this HIP42 as well. but I have to call out people that spread FUD without understanding. it's ok not to understand but if you don't - please dont spam and shout. it just looks bad.
Mrflipsflipping 01/13/2022 12:36 PM
Its not FUD man. I am telling you that not everyone who has invested in this network knows how to get port forwarding done on mobile. Its great your warm and tasty by the fireplace over there because you understand it however there a lot of people who don't understand how to do it.
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Mrflipsflipping
Its not FUD man. I am telling you that not everyone who has invested in this network knows how to get port forwarding done on mobile. Its great your warm and tasty by the fireplace over there because you understand it however there a lot of people who don't understand how to do it.
Brainstormer 01/13/2022 12:37 PM
they don't know what they don't know. if they know they don't understand, they'll learn.
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BadTrader
I want to see 90% of gamers and sppofers eliminated... I've paid to have a member here come and help me set up everything properly... Ask @Deleted User he's been to my house and helped me get my miner 128ft up
this HIP has nothing to do with spoofers and gamers
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Anthonyra
Well, when you make a system that's not built on trust... it hard to tell gamers from people who don't put the work in if there's an issue with their setup...
Instead of creating a hip that will impact a lot innocent people that have put in a lot of time, effort, and money into optimizing their set up, like me, why not figure out what will take care of spoofers and gamers and not harm people contributing to the network more than a window-sill miner? (edited)
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rather it incentivizes people to set up their hotspots so that there is a more balanced ratio between beaconing and witnessing
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Damar
this HIP has nothing to do with spoofers and gamers
Brainstormer 01/13/2022 12:38 PM
i haven't connected how this will stop gamers, or maybe its a type of gamer that im not familiar with that is focused on certain loop hole
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How do we create more beacons? That is my issue
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we don't create more beacons, that is random
12:39
but you can get more witnesses per beacon by having a stronger antenna
12:39
or have it higher up
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So we are penalized for something out of our control...
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Brainstormer
i haven't connected how this will stop gamers, or maybe its a type of gamer that im not familiar with that is focused on certain loop hole
Witness repeating, we saw it a lot in September of last year then the denylist got released by Helium..
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Anthonyra
Is 3.3% (16,197) of the network A LOT? This also includes edge cases that could redeem themselves with test beacons or the 24 minimum cap suggested in the HIP. (edited)
Mrflipsflipping 01/13/2022 12:39 PM
Anthony how do I learn how to unrelay a mobile network. I have no idea where to even begin but I have 10's of thousands invested.
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I think there's a lot of misunderstanding in general. for this HIP to have 77% approval I'm worried. The 77% are the poor bastards that have 50 other miners in their cell in London wanting to level their rewards.
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Mrflipsflipping
Anthony how do I learn how to unrelay a mobile network. I have no idea where to even begin but I have 10's of thousands invested.
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I live in rural area with lots of rolling hills, and have my antenna 128ft up and only get 18 witnesses when I beacon... I am adding coverage in a rural area and will get penalized for it...
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Anthonyra
There's just a higher chance... especially if you don't care to beacon because you make bank on witnesses alone
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 12:40 PM
Personally, it has nothing to do with not caring to beacon - it's actually that often I - and many other people don't beacon, through no fault of our own, and there's absolutely nothing I can do to change that. Unless that is resolved this HIP is fundamentally broken - and you seem to continue to ignore that.
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Mrflipsflipping
Anthony how do I learn how to unrelay a mobile network. I have no idea where to even begin but I have 10's of thousands invested.
Sorry, it's hard to keep track of everyone... but did you try out the tool and see if you're affected? Then vpn, there's a couple options. Some more technical than others. There's some plug and play options too if you're not that technologically savvy.. like https://www.amazon.com/GL-iNET-GL-MT300N-V2-Repeater-300Mbps-Performance/dp/B073TSK26W/ref=sr_1_2?crid=D48MU5KETWSY&keywords=mango+vpn&qid=1642106458&sprefix=mango+vpn%2Caps%2C89&sr=8-2
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redactd
I think there's a lot of misunderstanding in general. for this HIP to have 77% approval I'm worried. The 77% are the poor bastards that have 50 other miners in their cell in London wanting to level their rewards.
Please listen to our discussion here: https://youtu.be/CzrNzJ3gKXQ This might not even happen until light hotspots, at which point lack of beacons shouldn't be an issue any longer
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captainhindsight
Personally, it has nothing to do with not caring to beacon - it's actually that often I - and many other people don't beacon, through no fault of our own, and there's absolutely nothing I can do to change that. Unless that is resolved this HIP is fundamentally broken - and you seem to continue to ignore that.
Why no beacons??? Not providing usable coverage ehh? Could an IOT sensor function off your setup? (edited)
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Brainstormer
they don't know what they don't know. if they know they don't understand, they'll learn.
Mrflipsflipping 01/13/2022 12:41 PM
Wtf yeah your f'n right but shit never f'n works right with this f'n networking bullshit
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BadTrader
Instead of creating a hip that will impact a lot innocent people that have put in a lot of time, effort, and money into optimizing their set up, like me, why not figure out what will take care of spoofers and gamers and not harm people contributing to the network more than a window-sill miner? (edited)
Mrflipsflipping 01/13/2022 12:42 PM
That's what I am saying!
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You can also check out https://youtu.be/L8BiV26yoMI if you'd like also. Mind you this was before the denylist was public..
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brybo86
Why no beacons??? Not providing usable coverage ehh? Could an IOT sensor function off your setup? (edited)
probably yes, as an iot sensor will trigger a response from his hotspot (aka beacon), unlike the present system where beacons are random
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Brainstormer 01/13/2022 12:45 PM
@Anthonyra can you show me a hotspot that will be affected. preferably one that's doing the kind of gaming this hip tries to stop (edited)
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@Anthonyra I have an as optimised set up as possible for my area- only way to drastically improve over my 128ft up high set up is to go buy a 250ft-300ft tower. I am adding coverage in a very tough terrain area- to hit the biggest city, I'd have to go 250 ft up- and that is only possible with a 250ft tower. Even cell phones in my area barely have signal
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BadTrader
@Anthonyra I have an as optimised set up as possible for my area- only way to drastically improve over my 128ft up high set up is to go buy a 250ft-300ft tower. I am adding coverage in a very tough terrain area- to hit the biggest city, I'd have to go 250 ft up- and that is only possible with a 250ft tower. Even cell phones in my area barely have signal
The issue you're speaking of will fix with light hotspots. HIP 42 will not hurt your setup
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mistakeNot
probably yes, as an iot sensor will trigger a response from his hotspot (aka beacon), unlike the present system where beacons are random
So do we need to all get IOT beacons to get our hotspots to beacon more?
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Brainstormer
@Anthonyra can you show me a hotspot that will be affected. preferably one that's doing the kind of gaming this hip tries to stop (edited)
If you don't mind a csv on discord I can drop all of them here
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BadTrader
@Anthonyra I have an as optimised set up as possible for my area- only way to drastically improve over my 128ft up high set up is to go buy a 250ft-300ft tower. I am adding coverage in a very tough terrain area- to hit the biggest city, I'd have to go 250 ft up- and that is only possible with a 250ft tower. Even cell phones in my area barely have signal
Brainstormer 01/13/2022 12:47 PM
maybe you need to add a cavity filter
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Brainstormer
they don't know what they don't know. if they know they don't understand, they'll learn.
Mrflipsflipping 01/13/2022 12:47 PM
I'm not some lazy ass either. I have built several mobile trailers with solar installations and deep cycle batteries. I just don't know how I'm going to port forward a mobile phone service. If these things don't make money they are getting shut down thats all there is to it. I'm not putting them on an expensive cellular plan that allows port forwarding either because Heliums payouts are unpredictable, shit is always changing.
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Anthonyra
If you don't mind a csv on discord I can drop all of them here
Brainstormer 01/13/2022 12:47 PM
yes, please, that would be great
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rawrmaan
The issue you're speaking of will fix with light hotspots. HIP 42 will not hurt your setup
The test says it will impact my set up: Witnesses 18 Witness receipts 295 5 day Limit: 144 Witness cap 28 Affected by HIP-42 true
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BadTrader
The test says it will impact my set up: Witnesses 18 Witness receipts 295 5 day Limit: 144 Witness cap 28 Affected by HIP-42 true
Only because you're not currently beaconing enough, which is out of your control and will be fixed with light hotspots
12:48
Until then, compensation_factor will make sure you're not affected
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So why do this hip?
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Brainstormer
yes, please, that would be great
Sadly attachments are disabled here...
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So to summertime high gainers via witnesses are getting punished for witnessing in dense areas?
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Anthonyra
Sadly attachments are disabled here...
Brainstormer 01/13/2022 12:48 PM
DM me?
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Anthonyra
Sadly attachments are disabled here...
I think only in this conversation- I am sure if you were open to PMs you could send it or maybe in another area in this discord- like I can not share screen shots in this hip section but can in local US-WA state section
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Mrflipsflipping 01/13/2022 12:50 PM
Thank you
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BadTrader
I think only in this conversation- I am sure if you were open to PMs you could send it or maybe in another area in this discord- like I can not share screen shots in this hip section but can in local US-WA state section
Did you send me a friend request?
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BadTrader
So do we need to all get IOT beacons to get our hotspots to beacon more?
no unfortunately, the communication with the sensor will not be seen as a beacon by the network. what i was saying is that the beacon as it is now, acts like the answer the hotspot will give to a sensor, it is a way of checking the downlink path from radio point of view
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Anthonyra
Did you send me a friend request?
Just did!
12:52
@Anthonyra I am willing to share my location privately so you can look into a scenerio where a legit hotspot will be impacted- per the test site
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Damar
rather it incentivizes people to set up their hotspots so that there is a more balanced ratio between beaconing and witnessing
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 12:53 PM
Again - how do they do that?
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Mrflipsflipping 01/13/2022 12:53 PM
Damn dude a lot of this looks foreign to me, I really don't understand as read the first paragraph.
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Yes, please let me know how I can increase my beaconing?
12:54
Here's when I beaconed:I sent beacons on the 12th, 8th , 7th, two on the 6th, three on the 5th, and four on the 4th, 3rd, three on the 1st, one on the 30th, three on the 27th, one on the 26th- nothing on the 25th, I was offline/synching for the 24th and 23rd- two on the 22nd, one on the 20th, and one on the 18th...
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Mrflipsflipping 01/13/2022 12:54 PM
Whats the best way to learn this look up every single term and study what it is?
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brybo86
Why no beacons??? Not providing usable coverage ehh? Could an IOT sensor function off your setup? (edited)
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 12:58 PM
I actually don't understand your question. Is it a question? Or just some sort of odd rant?
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BadTrader
So why do this hip?
captainhindsight 01/13/2022 1:01 PM
Indeed. It seems pointless 😐
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captainhindsight
I actually don't understand your question. Is it a question? Or just some sort of odd rant?
Why no bacons 🥓🥓 (edited)
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Mrflipsflipping
Whats the best way to learn this look up every single term and study what it is?
I think that would just be frustrating. if you're not already comfortable setting up a virtual machine on amazon and a raspberrypi it may be more difficult than its worth. There may be someone that would be willing to help you out. I can ask a few others that have had success with that guide. Another option is more plug and play that was linked to already. https://www.amazon.com/GL-iNET-GL-MT300N-V2-Repeater-300Mbps-Performance/dp/B073TSK26W/ref=sr_1_2?crid=D48MU5KETWSY&keywords=mango+vpn&qid=1642106458&sprefix=mango+vpn%2Caps%2C89&sr=8-2# I think I'm going to pick one of these up just to see how well it works vs a raspberry pi4.
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Mrflipsflipping 01/13/2022 1:06 PM
Yes I did.
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brybo86
Why no bacons 🥓🥓 (edited)
wen bacons?
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krby
wen bacons?
I dunno but I'm gonna try and make a sirloin tip roast tonight 🤞 (edited)
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redactd
I think that would just be frustrating. if you're not already comfortable setting up a virtual machine on amazon and a raspberrypi it may be more difficult than its worth. There may be someone that would be willing to help you out. I can ask a few others that have had success with that guide. Another option is more plug and play that was linked to already. https://www.amazon.com/GL-iNET-GL-MT300N-V2-Repeater-300Mbps-Performance/dp/B073TSK26W/ref=sr_1_2?crid=D48MU5KETWSY&keywords=mango+vpn&qid=1642106458&sprefix=mango+vpn%2Caps%2C89&sr=8-2# I think I'm going to pick one of these up just to see how well it works vs a raspberry pi4.
Mrflipsflipping 01/13/2022 1:09 PM
I'm not already comfortable setting up a virtual machine, I'm not a computer guy. I got into this to make moneynlike a lot of people. I have built 5 solar powered completely mobile mining rigs that run on mobile networks. I'm not lazy I just don't know jack about computer networking. I will read and learn. I just can't help where my knowledge base is at this point.
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redactd
I think that would just be frustrating. if you're not already comfortable setting up a virtual machine on amazon and a raspberrypi it may be more difficult than its worth. There may be someone that would be willing to help you out. I can ask a few others that have had success with that guide. Another option is more plug and play that was linked to already. https://www.amazon.com/GL-iNET-GL-MT300N-V2-Repeater-300Mbps-Performance/dp/B073TSK26W/ref=sr_1_2?crid=D48MU5KETWSY&keywords=mango+vpn&qid=1642106458&sprefix=mango+vpn%2Caps%2C89&sr=8-2# I think I'm going to pick one of these up just to see how well it works vs a raspberry pi4.
Mrflipsflipping 01/13/2022 1:10 PM
Sweet I appreciate it , thanks
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Mrflipsflipping
I'm not already comfortable setting up a virtual machine, I'm not a computer guy. I got into this to make moneynlike a lot of people. I have built 5 solar powered completely mobile mining rigs that run on mobile networks. I'm not lazy I just don't know jack about computer networking. I will read and learn. I just can't help where my knowledge base is at this point.
I'm not trying to discourage you. I understand that the guide I wrote begins at a certain level of specialized understanding and I'm acknowledging that. ping me in a week or two and I'll have tested that $25 box to see if it's easy to deploy or not
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redactd
I'm not trying to discourage you. I understand that the guide I wrote begins at a certain level of specialized understanding and I'm acknowledging that. ping me in a week or two and I'll have tested that $25 box to see if it's easy to deploy or not
Mrflipsflipping 01/13/2022 1:14 PM
Perfect I appreciate it brother.
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PurpleTorgos 01/13/2022 2:00 PM
How do I vote? If I click on vote my app opens and I don’t know wat to do
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You have to scan the code thing in your app for the vote you want to do
14:02
I don't remember beyond that- it was a little tricky
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Anthonyra
I don't work for Helium. I'm a community member that is concerned of the overall health of the Network based on what I'm seeing while data diving. Thank you for your feedback
when the network will ensure me 4 beacons per day, the network maybe will be able to cut my witness activity. until that moment is only for “helatly” helium pockets
14:06
i have a good setup. but the network make me send less beacon. so why do i have to be penalized?
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PurpleTorgos 01/13/2022 2:07 PM
Strange I don’t see any thing to scan… I always come on notifications Helium update
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77-22…. Y’all are dumb (edited)
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Does someone have a dumbed down version for someone that has not been following this? What is the problem it is trying to solve and how does it impact a user that is in a congested area, will that reduce beacons further or who is the target audience for this? (edited)
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It limits your witnessing ability relative to your beacon performance and basically sets a hard limit to what you can witness even with optimal beaconing. This further reduces rewards when there is network congestion and you beacon less often. This is just one of many HIP that will lead to fewer rewards for most with no real upside
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facepalm 1
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So why is everyone voting to pass it, iis this whales trying to pass this?
14:39
Seems backwards for someone that has 1 miner.
14:42
I think the intent is to remove those antennas that do not provide coverage. Like those on a mountain hill where no one will ever go with an IoT. The way you worded seemed otherwise.
14:43
Not remove, but reduce the rewards.
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Whether it’s on a remote hill or a local hill and actually providing legit wide coverage HIP42 will treat them the same. I don’t think there should be restrictions to how well your hotspot can perform. The POC system will go away in time and POC is the incentive right now to build the network as efficiently as possible
14:50
Keep in mind this isn’t the official HIP poll but is gauging interest for when it actually is voted on
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hforn
It limits your witnessing ability relative to your beacon performance and basically sets a hard limit to what you can witness even with optimal beaconing. This further reduces rewards when there is network congestion and you beacon less often. This is just one of many HIP that will lead to fewer rewards for most with no real upside
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:05 PM
That's so incorrect it's not even funny... facepalm
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SilentP00h
Does someone have a dumbed down version for someone that has not been following this? What is the problem it is trying to solve and how does it impact a user that is in a congested area, will that reduce beacons further or who is the target audience for this? (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:07 PM
It restricts unhealthy hotspots. It stops a gaming exploit (witness receipt copying)
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This HIP will absolutely make earnings go down. The author is using this “straw poll” to capitalize on anti-gaming sentiment. I hate spoofers and gamers but this HIP needs to go down in flames like his previous submission.
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Pratt
This HIP will absolutely make earnings go down. The author is using this “straw poll” to capitalize on anti-gaming sentiment. I hate spoofers and gamers but this HIP needs to go down in flames like his previous submission.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:07 PM
You 100% don't understand if that's what you think this HIP does.
15:08
Your earning will go down if you're cheating
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Well mate, I actually do. And I’m not cheating.
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Pratt
Well mate, I actually do. And I’m not cheating.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:09 PM
So explain exactly how you think your earning will go down due to this HIP
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I’m not getting into a debate with a Rick and Morty fan about Helium.
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Pratt
I’m not getting into a debate with a Rick and Morty fan about Helium.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:10 PM
Nice dodge. Obv no actual reason. Cool.
15:11
I have two different kinds of tools that utilize the DeWi ETL to caculate the effects per hotspot. You need to login with a gmail.com email to us it. https://etl.dewi.org/question/461-poc-witness-scaling-hip-42 (using public address of hotspot) or https://etl.dewi.org/question/624-poc-witness-scaling-by-name-hip-42 (using the name-name-name of the hotspot)
15:11
Looks for yourself. Facts are facts
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It restricts unhealthy hotspots. It stops a gaming exploit (witness receipt copying)
this is not the correcr way to stop gamers. reduce witness is not the way
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This HIP is a bit out of hand, if we are going to have light hotspots in a few months and this HIP probably won’t happen before that, why rushing this HIP now ? Looks like we create a lot of anxiety here and forcing a lot of people to get into the technicals of port forwarding
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swa1984
this is not the correcr way to stop gamers. reduce witness is not the way
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:12 PM
Yes it is, for this specific exploit.
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richard Z
This HIP is a bit out of hand, if we are going to have light hotspots in a few months and this HIP probably won’t happen before that, why rushing this HIP now ? Looks like we create a lot of anxiety here and forcing a lot of people to get into the technicals of port forwarding
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:13 PM
No one is rushing the HIP. The current vote is only a temp check to see if a lot of time is going to be spent coding it.
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richard Z
This HIP is a bit out of hand, if we are going to have light hotspots in a few months and this HIP probably won’t happen before that, why rushing this HIP now ? Looks like we create a lot of anxiety here and forcing a lot of people to get into the technicals of port forwarding
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:14 PM
The anxiety is due to gamers we know are on here spreading misinformation to confuse people.
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i don t send beacon for 3 days…so why do i have to be penalized?
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swa1984
i don t send beacon for 3 days…so why do i have to be penalized?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:15 PM
Because your setup is unhealthy for the network.
15:15
Also, it's not day by day. It's a rolling 5 day check (edited)
15:15
Again... check the calc to see if you would actually be affected.
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explain unhealthy…because the network randomly choose beaconers. i m affecter. sure
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The anxiety is due to gamers we know are on here spreading misinformation to confuse people.
If you know them, ban them now, don’t wait. It is The beacon thing that drives people crazy
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And Elon said it perfectly, THEY KNOW BEST WHAT IS HEALTHY, not you. How arrogant.
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swa1984
explain unhealthy…because the network randomly choose beaconers. i m affecter. sure
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:16 PM
Your beacon average (amount you are challenged) is consistent.
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Vote this crap down, it’s just a straw poll
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:17 PM
There is a wide margin built in to account for the randomness of challenges.
15:18
The only way you would be affected is if A: you've got network issues causing you not to beacon, or B: You're cheating.
15:18
No legit setup is affected
15:19
I have two different kinds of tools that utilize the DeWi ETL to caculate the effects per hotspot. You need to login with a gmail.com email to us it. https://etl.dewi.org/question/461-poc-witness-scaling-hip-42 (using public address of hotspot) or https://etl.dewi.org/question/624-poc-witness-scaling-by-name-hip-42 (using the name-name-name of the hotspot)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
No legit setup is affected
That’s a remarkable (and untrue) statement. People pushing the network boundaries to extend it into rural areas have posted their numbers here (today!) and will be impacted.
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cheezedawg
That’s a remarkable (and untrue) statement. People pushing the network boundaries to extend it into rural areas have posted their numbers here (today!) and will be impacted.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:20 PM
People gaming the PoC system are not legit
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The only way you would be affected is if A: you've got network issues causing you not to beacon, or B: You're cheating.
Can you fix the tool, many people have trouble to use it
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
People gaming the PoC system are not legit
Is the person here today that put their miner up 128’ to extend coverage to places that otherwise had none gaming the system? I don’t think so.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Your beacon average (amount you are challenged) is consistent.
3 beacon sent in 5 days. is this consistent???
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richard Z
Can you fix the tool, many people have trouble to use it
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:23 PM
I told @Anthonyra the other day that the name-name-name one was broken. The hotspot address one still works though. 🙂
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swa1984
3 beacon sent in 5 days. is this consistent???
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:23 PM
Sounds like you have a network issue
👎 2
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I told @Anthonyra the other day that the name-name-name one was broken. The hotspot address one still works though. 🙂
The problem is many people can’t login including me
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swa1984
3 beacon sent in 5 days. is this consistent???
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:23 PM
The challenges are consistent.
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no network issues. public ip not relayed 35ms of ping
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richard Z
The problem is many people can’t login including me
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:24 PM
To the tool? You just need a gmail address (edited)
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swa1984
no network issues. public ip not relayed 35ms of ping
Yup. The challenges fail because the challenging hotspot has network issues right now
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swa1984
no network issues. public ip not relayed 35ms of ping
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:26 PM
Hmm... relay wouldn't matter (much). What does the app diag say?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
To the tool? You just need a gmail address (edited)
Many people are having trouble to login using their gmail account. No more talking about this, you can go back and read more messages here
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cheezedawg
Yup. The challenges fail because the challenging hotspot has network issues right now
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:26 PM
True. If the challenger is relayed, that fucks everything up.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Hmm... relay wouldn't matter (much). What does the app diag say?
you mean whenni connect via BT?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
True. If the challenger is relayed, that fucks everything up.
Then suggestion: stop telling people HIP42 only affects them of their setup is sub-optimal.
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richard Z
Many people are having trouble to login using their gmail account. No more talking about this, you can go back and read more messages here
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:27 PM
They can ping #data-analysis and they can help 🙂
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swa1984
you mean whenni connect via BT?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:28 PM
Yes 🙂
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cheezedawg
Then suggestion: stop telling people HIP42 only affects them of their setup is sub-optimal.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:28 PM
Even with the occasional bad Challenger, they would still not be affected by HIP42
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healty inbound & outbound
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swa1984
healty inbound & outbound
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:29 PM
Interesting. Hotspot name?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Interesting. Hotspot name?
Brainstormer 01/13/2022 3:29 PM
15:29
this will be clipped
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Even with the occasional bad Challenger, they would still not be affected by HIP42
The person posting earlier today with the 128’ antenna would be.
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Brainstormer 01/13/2022 3:33 PM
there will be casualties, i'm willing to accept that
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Brainstormer 01/13/2022 3:35 PM
what should i pay attention to
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:36 PM
The upper section that shows Beacons and witnesses to those beacons
15:37
Seems like it's having some beaconing issues.
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Brainstormer 01/13/2022 3:37 PM
i thought you were going to tell me it's a gaming hotspot
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No gaming in regards to HIP-42 will most likely be pumping a lot more witnesses then what that one is seeing. An issue with beaconing more likely to blame.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
No legit setup is affected
I have a legit set up, and will be effected. And, my beacons are NOT consistent: I sent beacons on the 12th, 8th , 7th, two on the 6th, three on the 5th, and four on the 4th, 3rd, three on the 1st, one on the 30th, three on the 27th, one on the 26th- nothing on the 25th, I was offline/synching for the 24th and 23rd- two on the 22nd, one on the 20th, and one on the 18th...
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Anthonyra
No gaming in regards to HIP-42 will most likely be pumping a lot more witnesses then what that one is seeing. An issue with beaconing more likely to blame.
Brainstormer 01/13/2022 3:40 PM
issue with beaconing due to?
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Brainstormer
there will be casualties, i'm willing to accept that
That's me!
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15:40
I gave @Anthonyra all my info so he can look into it
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Brainstormer
issue with beaconing due to?
Do you own this hotspot?
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Anthonyra
Do you own this hotspot?
Brainstormer 01/13/2022 3:41 PM
no i just looked around to find an example
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Brainstormer
no i just looked around to find an example
It’s hard to determine the cause without the owner… because we need access to the miner more often then not and information about ISP
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Brainstormer
i thought you were going to tell me it's a gaming hotspot
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:42 PM
Nah, I don't throw that out unless I have really good reason 😉
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Brainstormer 01/13/2022 3:43 PM
it's not mine so feel free to comment lol
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15:44
hip42 will stop these kind of gaming though which is the blantant cheating we all should want to stop
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Brainstormer 01/13/2022 3:45 PM
so although I understand that some edge cases will be affected, I will vote to stop these blatant cheating going on that takes a lot out of our rewards
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15:46
perhaps the edge cases can reach out to some veterans and ask how to improve their beaconing and increase their earnings overall
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It restricts unhealthy hotspots. It stops a gaming exploit (witness receipt copying)
Bro wutt?! It doesnt mention anything about stopping people from gaming. You must be pretty creative in your interpretation lol
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Brainstormer
so although I understand that some edge cases will be affected, I will vote to stop these blatant cheating going on that takes a lot out of our rewards
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:46 PM
There is also the point of there is a limit to the usefulness of duplicate POC.
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ok this is correct to be punished. because his sent beacons have 0 witness. this is a cheater
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:47 PM
But the "tower/great setups" don't want to hear that
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hforn
Bro wutt?! It doesnt mention anything about stopping people from gaming. You must be pretty creative in your interpretation lol
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:48 PM
It's literally how this HIP started. Look up Clever Smoke Raven and the massive exploit that was going on (edited)
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15:48
It was the topic of conversation for weeks. How soon people forget...
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swa1984
ok this is correct to be punished. because his sent beacons have 0 witness. this is a cheater
Brainstormer 01/13/2022 3:49 PM
and there are a lot of these
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hforn
Bro wutt?! It doesnt mention anything about stopping people from gaming. You must be pretty creative in your interpretation lol
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:49 PM
The witness copying exploit has been known for years. This hip would stop it.
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I could agree with this HIP if as long as your beacons were healthy earnings wouldn’t be negatively affected in the slightest
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
oof... yeah, this kind of shit
I don’t think anybody here is okay with that kind of crap.
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hforn
I could agree with this HIP if as long as your beacons were healthy earnings wouldn’t be negatively affected in the slightest
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:52 PM
Light hotspots will fix the p2p issues that can affect challenges/beacons. This HIP wouldn't be active until it was clear that p2p issues aren't going to screw people. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
There is also the point of there is a limit to the usefulness of duplicate POC.
That is already accounted for in POC. Witnessing a beacon that 17 other people witness earns very little. Witnessing a beacon with 4 or fewer witnesses earns a lot.
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cheezedawg
That is already accounted for in POC. Witnessing a beacon that 17 other people witness earns very little. Witnessing a beacon with 4 or fewer witnesses earns a lot.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:53 PM
Not really. The system was never perfect and the point of HIP is to improve the system.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
But the "tower/great setups" don't want to hear that
Cuz unlike hotspots like that they are trying to improve the network.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:53 PM
This is different than HIP15/17
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cheezedawg
Cuz unlike hotspots like that they are trying to improve the network.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:53 PM
The thing is, they're not. They are optimized for gaming PoC, not for real network coverage.
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cheezedawg
That is already accounted for in POC. Witnessing a beacon that 17 other people witness earns very little. Witnessing a beacon with 4 or fewer witnesses earns a lot.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:54 PM
HIP17 covers the rewards for 1 witnessing event. It doesn't cover the number of witnessing events.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The thing is, they're not. They are optimized for gaming PoC, not for real network coverage.
Hotspots that by their nature push the boundaries of the network into new areas will have fewer witnesses.
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cheezedawg
Hotspots that by their nature push the boundaries of the network into new areas will have fewer witnesses.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:55 PM
It's not the "new area" hotspots that are affected (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It's not the "new area" hotspots that are affected (edited)
You’re still saying that when people here today in this thread have shown that they are affected by extending the network into new areas.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:56 PM
The edge case ones are typically high antennas near large population centers
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cheezedawg
You’re still saying that when people here today in this thread have shown that they are affected by extending the network into new areas.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 3:57 PM
Those "new areas" are going to have less witnesses and witnessing. The ratio would still be fine. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Those "new areas" are going to have less witnesses and witnessing. The ratio would still be fine. (edited)
Will it? I can imagine wanting to fill up your witness limit with higher paying beacons from extending into new areas but with HIP42, those edge cases will likely reach their witness limit with cheap beacons from populated areas.
16:01
That 128’ tower being a good example
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cheezedawg
Will it? I can imagine wanting to fill up your witness limit with higher paying beacons from extending into new areas but with HIP42, those edge cases will likely reach their witness limit with cheap beacons from populated areas.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 4:01 PM
The edge cases of new areas is accounted for in the HIP. We want expansion into new areas. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The edge cases of new areas is accounted for in the HIP. We want expansion into new areas. 🙂
RoxFG || HIP 01/13/2022 4:01 PM
i hope so
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RoxFG || HIP
i hope so
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 4:02 PM
It's in there. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The edge cases of new areas is accounted for in the HIP. We want expansion into new areas. 🙂
I don’t think this HIP incentivizes that. It just swats down gross manipulation with some collateral damage.
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RoxFG || HIP 01/13/2022 4:03 PM
To make helium better we need new areas.. and atm isnt happening.. the people focus in citys whatever.
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cheezedawg
I don’t think this HIP incentivizes that. It just swats down gross manipulation with some collateral damage.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 4:03 PM
"collateral damage" is not the case. Unhealthy hotspots should be rewarded accordingly
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RoxFG || HIP
To make helium better we need new areas.. and atm isnt happening.. the people focus in citys whatever.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 4:04 PM
Well most people install where they live. Most people live in cities, so that's where the majority of the hotspots are. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
"collateral damage" is not the case. Unhealthy hotspots should be rewarded accordingly
We just have different definitions of unhealthy. Seems that your definition includes a lot of people pushing the network into new areas.
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cheezedawg
We just have different definitions of unhealthy. Seems that your definition includes a lot of people pushing the network into new areas.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 4:06 PM
It's not about new areas at all. It's about gaming PoC rewards. A healthy hotspot needs a ratio of traffic in both directions. Otherwise it's not useful to the network. It's just a parasite stealing rewards from healthy installs.
10k 1
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It's not about new areas at all. It's about gaming PoC rewards. A healthy hotspot needs a ratio of traffic in both directions. Otherwise it's not useful to the network. It's just a parasite stealing rewards from healthy installs.
Disagree with that blanket statement. Parasites exist for sure, but not everybody with a skewed ratio is a parasite.
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cheezedawg
Disagree with that blanket statement. Parasites exist for sure, but not everybody with a skewed ratio is a parasite.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 4:10 PM
I will agree that parasite is a bit of hyperbole, but you get the idea. 🙂
16:11
And no, not everyone with a bad ratio is such. Most of the time it ends up being some sort of local network issue. 🙂
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Theoretical example: imagine a densely populated area and a few isolated hotspots separated from that populated area by terrain (a hill or something). A person that sets up on top of that hill can bridge the network over it, and the network is better for that, but they will certainly have a skewed ratio.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 4:11 PM
Light Hotspots can't come soon enough. 😅 🙏
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Light Hotspots can't come soon enough. 😅 🙏
Amen
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cheezedawg
Theoretical example: imagine a densely populated area and a few isolated hotspots separated from that populated area by terrain (a hill or something). A person that sets up on top of that hill can bridge the network over it, and the network is better for that, but they will certainly have a skewed ratio.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 4:12 PM
Not at all. There is no need for a "bridge". The local hotspots take care of the data transfers from LoRa devices.
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cheezedawg
That 128’ tower being a good example
After some digging we found some potential explanations to the problem with his setup. But still troubleshooting it… fwiw
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Anthonyra
After some digging we found some potential explanations to the problem with his setup. But still troubleshooting it… fwiw
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 4:13 PM
Oh cool. Would love to see/hear what's going on with it 🙂 (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Not at all. There is no need for a "bridge". The local hotspots take care of the data transfers from LoRa devices.
Well, yeah, a single hotspot in the middle of nowhere surrounded by IOT devices is useful, but that’s not POC
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Anthonyra
After some digging we found some potential explanations to the problem with his setup. But still troubleshooting it… fwiw
Awesome.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Oh cool. Would love to see/hear what's going on with it 🙂 (edited)
I haven’t fixed it yet so don’t want to get ahead of myself but it seems like a potential sync issue (not bad so nothing was giving red flags) but for anyone here if you fall behind 250 blocks you won’t beacon like you should. Explorer only tells you if you’re syncing if you fall behind 1500 blocks. And the helium App has a different trigger
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cheezedawg
Well, yeah, a single hotspot in the middle of nowhere surrounded by IOT devices is useful, but that’s not POC
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 4:15 PM
And right there you state the issue. People are too focused on PoC. That is not the point of the network. 🙂
💯 1
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Anthonyra
I haven’t fixed it yet so don’t want to get ahead of myself but it seems like a potential sync issue (not bad so nothing was giving red flags) but for anyone here if you fall behind 250 blocks you won’t beacon like you should. Explorer only tells you if you’re syncing if you fall behind 1500 blocks. And the helium App has a different trigger
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 4:16 PM
ahhh.. yeah, that would do it
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But another point to be made here, this individual would have never stopped to reach out about their setup without the HIP and what it means…
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
And right there you state the issue. People are too focused on PoC. That is not the point of the network. 🙂
It’s the consensus mechanism for the blockchain and it’s kinda important 😀
😄 1
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cheezedawg
It’s the consensus mechanism for the blockchain and it’s kinda important 😀
… I hope this is a joke…
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cheezedawg
It’s the consensus mechanism for the blockchain and it’s kinda important 😀
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 4:19 PM
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Anthonyra
… I hope this is a joke…
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 4:19 PM
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cheezedawg
It’s the consensus mechanism for the blockchain and it’s kinda important 😀
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 4:21 PM
It's a mech to incentivize the buildout of the network so the network can exist and have customers. Nothing else. You might want to check the plan for the rewards distribution in the future.. 😉
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Name doesn't seem to work. Address does. Just an FYI.
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Case in point: I set up a Bobcat for a friend. He is a teacher in California with a permanently disabled son. Money is very tight for him. We put a Bobcat at his moms retirement village that overlooks a good valley in Orange County. He makes about .9 HNT a day. That is literally a huge amount of money for him. I looked it up, he witnesses 1,077 beacons on a 7 day average. So does this HIP limit that 1,077 to less. He is just a regular joe that got dealt a real tough hand in life. You can’t tell me he is a cheater or a gamer. (edited)
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Jamalisms
Name doesn't seem to work. Address does. Just an FYI.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 4:34 PM
Yeah, I told him yesterday 🙂
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I should just delete that tool…
coolcry 1
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Pratt
Case in point: I set up a Bobcat for a friend. He is a teacher in California with a permanently disabled son. Money is very tight for him. We put a Bobcat at his moms retirement village that overlooks a good valley in Orange County. He makes about .9 HNT a day. That is literally a huge amount of money for him. I looked it up, he witnesses 1,077 beacons on a 7 day average. So does this HIP limit that 1,077 to less. He is just a regular joe that got dealt a real tough hand in life. You can’t tell me he is a cheater or a gamer. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 4:36 PM
Doesn't have to be a cheater to have an unhealthy hotspot.
16:36
The rules are made to help the network as a whole, not the individual.
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You are arrogant mate. You don’t get to decide what is healthy and not. And this I a new rule you are proposing.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 4:37 PM
The individuals that help the network more, get more rewards. It's that simple.
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Pratt
You are arrogant mate. You don’t get to decide what is healthy and not. And this I a new rule you are proposing.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 4:38 PM
It's not my rule... It's from the people that made this network. The author just wrote it up.
16:38
So HIP15/17 is arrogant too?
16:38
Or HIP 20
16:39
Or any other the HIPs that defined rules for the health and success of the network? Come on...
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Pratt
You are arrogant mate. You don’t get to decide what is healthy and not. And this I a new rule you are proposing.
You’re right and that’s the purpose of the HIP.. to define what that really means. For what it’s worth if he is affected by HIP-42 he’d be really affected with the alternative of rebalancing the reward buckets… (edited)
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Did you not hear when Frank Mong said on an interview to get an antenna high with a good view? Now that is bad? You know better than Frank Mong?
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But he sounds like a great guy so why would I want to do that?
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Pratt
Did you not hear when Frank Mong said on an interview to get an antenna high with a good view? Now that is bad? You know better than Frank Mong?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 4:41 PM
That is a gross over-simplification and you know it.
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He is a great guy, that’s my dog in this fight. He needs the money, the view is good. He isn’t cheating.
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Let’s start with step 1. Does the tool say he will be affected?
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I haven’t tried the tool yet. I am going off the raw data of his beacon witness.
facepalm 1
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How big is his wits list?
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Pratt
I haven’t tried the tool yet. I am going off the raw data of his beacon witness.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 4:42 PM
So... you're complaining without even looking to see if it's an issue?? ffs...
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Im blocking you Elon, you aren’t the author.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 4:43 PM
Love how your reaction to facts is to stick your fingers in your ears. sigh
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205 witness
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Pratt
205 witness
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 4:43 PM
Nice
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I definitely doubt he’s affected
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Anthonyra
I definitely doubt he’s affected
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 4:44 PM
Yeah, off the top of my head, sounds pretty good
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I will try the tool now I’m out of the Uber and have time to.
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328 witness receipts per day as a cap..
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Legitimate question. If a user hits the cap, what stops the said user from hoisting up another hotspot near the first one? Then they can reach the cap on two?
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Rockford
Legitimate question. If a user hits the cap, what stops the said user from hoisting up another hotspot near the first one? Then they can reach the cap on two?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 4:49 PM
Nothing 🙂
16:49
The "cap" is per hotspot
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HIP-17 will just reduce each by 50%
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I'm on the fence with this HIP and trying to get a better grip on it
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Anthonyra
I should just delete that tool…
Don't! The pubic address was fine and it was interesting to look through.
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HIP 17 isn't perfect. When people spoof location. The only thing that really seems to matter is the two cancel each other's beacons due to rssi too high but they still witness others
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Jamalisms
Don't! The pubic address was fine and it was interesting to look through.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 4:52 PM
No, he means the "name" one 🙂
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Jamalisms
Don't! The pubic address was fine and it was interesting to look through.
Yea I meant the name one…
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Do I have that wrong ?
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Rockford
HIP 17 isn't perfect. When people spoof location. The only thing that really seems to matter is the two cancel each other's beacons due to rssi too high but they still witness others
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 4:53 PM
There are other anti-spoof measures in place 😉
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I may need to look at it again.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
There are other anti-spoof measures in place 😉
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 4:53 PM
Not in this HIP, elsewhere 🙂
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Anthonyra
Yea I meant the name one…
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Lol
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It's a mech to incentivize the buildout of the network so the network can exist and have customers. Nothing else. You might want to check the plan for the rewards distribution in the future.. 😉
It’s the entire difference between other LoRaWAN networks like thethings network and Helium. And it’s (right now) what validators are reaching consensus on.
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cheezedawg
It’s the entire difference between other LoRaWAN networks like thethings network and Helium. And it’s (right now) what validators are reaching consensus on.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 5:01 PM
That's all true, but still not the point of the network. 🙂
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Thanks for the input guys. I don't like people gaming the system, just don't want to see legitimate miners caught up in the change.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
That's all true, but still not the point of the network. 🙂
Maybe I misunderstood you then- you were quite dismissive of it when proven coverage it the defining characteristic of the network
17:02
It’s the “work” in our proof of work
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Rockford
Thanks for the input guys. I don't like people gaming the system, just don't want to see legitimate miners caught up in the change.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 5:03 PM
Same 🙂
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cheezedawg
Maybe I misunderstood you then- you were quite dismissive of it when proven coverage it the defining characteristic of the network
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 5:04 PM
I disagree. Proving coverage is useful for sure, but the network being set up to transfer data is the real goal. All this PoC rewards stuff is just a means to an end 🙂
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Rockford
Thanks for the input guys. I don't like people gaming the system, just don't want to see legitimate miners caught up in the change.
@Anthonyra has done a lot of homework on this (which I appreciate) and it seems most won’t be impacted (including me) but I’m still concerned about it
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It takes work to negotiate location hosting agreements and manage the activity when you can't access their networks 24/7. So far it has been good for me, but definitely not easy by any means. I'm hoping for mass adoption of the network.
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cheezedawg
@Anthonyra has done a lot of homework on this (which I appreciate) and it seems most won’t be impacted (including me) but I’m still concerned about it
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 5:06 PM
Which is why this channel exists. So ya'll can help point out holes in the idea that might have been missed. We don't want anyone screwed by this. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I disagree. Proving coverage is useful for sure, but the network being set up to transfer data is the real goal. All this PoC rewards stuff is just a means to an end 🙂
Sure- the network without data transfer is just a circle jerk, but like I said, the reason somebody is going to chose helium vs others is proof of coverage verified in the block chain
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Which is why this channel exists. So ya'll can help point out holes in the idea that might have been missed. We don't want anyone screwed by this. 🙂
We’re on the same team. I just learned of this HIP this week and I’m trying to catch up with what he has undoubtedly been looking at for a long time.
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cheezedawg
Sure- the network without data transfer is just a circle jerk, but like I said, the reason somebody is going to chose helium vs others is proof of coverage verified in the block chain
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 5:07 PM
Sure, but they choose on coverage, not PoC rewards. 🙂
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cheezedawg
We’re on the same team. I just learned of this HIP this week and I’m trying to catch up with what he has undoubtedly been looking at for a long time.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 5:08 PM
Yeah, 4-5 months at this point I think? @Anthonyra ? (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Sure, but they choose on coverage, not PoC rewards. 🙂
Back to my example from last hour- I think it is valuable for that hotspot to bridge those hotspots separated by terrain because it then proves their coverage relative to other parts of the network. Somebody wanting to use the network might be interested in that.
17:11
But I accept it’s a hypothetical and @Anthonyra might have considered it.
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cheezedawg
Back to my example from last hour- I think it is valuable for that hotspot to bridge those hotspots separated by terrain because it then proves their coverage relative to other parts of the network. Somebody wanting to use the network might be interested in that.
I haven’t seen a hotspot that can hear that well not beacon back just as well if meant too. I’d love to see a real life example though to see how it fairs
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cheezedawg
Back to my example from last hour- I think it is valuable for that hotspot to bridge those hotspots separated by terrain because it then proves their coverage relative to other parts of the network. Somebody wanting to use the network might be interested in that.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 5:19 PM
The "bridge" idea isn't a thing because the data isn't being transmitted via RF once the local hotspot gets the data. That's all internet at that point.
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cheezedawg
That 128’ tower being a good example
I don't think that is correct. The issue for this one seems to be that it is in a bit of topological hole. The hotspot is high enough to hear over the hills (thus witnessing hotspots that are in the populated area) but not high enough to beacon to the populated area (blocked by the hills).
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Where do i vote?
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aahmeett
Where do i vote?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 5:20 PM
Helium Vote is where the Helium Community comes together to make decisions on the Network.
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KeithR
I don't think that is correct. The issue for this one seems to be that it is in a bit of topological hole. The hotspot is high enough to hear over the hills (thus witnessing hotspots that are in the populated area) but not high enough to beacon to the populated area (blocked by the hills).
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 5:21 PM
Not sure how that would work. Line of sight runs both ways.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The "bridge" idea isn't a thing because the data isn't being transmitted via RF once the local hotspot gets the data. That's all internet at that point.
Yes of course. But to prove that coverage is where it says it is (which data users are interested in knowing), it needs some connection to the rest of the network.
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cheezedawg
Yes of course. But to prove that coverage is where it says it is (which data users are interested in knowing), it needs some connection to the rest of the network.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 5:25 PM
Ah.. poc... I mean, sure if there is a lone wolf with no other hotpots in range other than that hill spot, sure... but that still isn't a "bridge". It's just a witness.
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Anyway, my take away now is that HIP42 is probably a net positive 😀 It gets rid of obvious parasites, eliminates some cheating like witness relays, but on the other side it has the potential (unrealized so far as the examples we have seen here turned out to be other issues) to negatively impact some hotspots.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Ah.. poc... I mean, sure if there is a lone wolf with no other hotpots in range other than that hill spot, sure... but that still isn't a "bridge". It's just a witness.
I wasn’t using the word in a networking sense. Probably should have picked a different word.
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cheezedawg
I wasn’t using the word in a networking sense. Probably should have picked a different word.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 5:26 PM
ahh yeah, got that now 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Not sure how that would work. Line of sight runs both ways.
I have plenty of witnessings making it over hills. I assume the signal is bouncing off the water in the heavy clouds (it rains here a lot). If the hill is far away, you seem to have a chance to make it over. If the hill is close, not so much. That's my hypothesis.
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KeithR
I have plenty of witnessings making it over hills. I assume the signal is bouncing off the water in the heavy clouds (it rains here a lot). If the hill is far away, you seem to have a chance to make it over. If the hill is close, not so much. That's my hypothesis.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 5:29 PM
damn air benders... lol
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
damn air benders... lol
Exactly!
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KeithR
I have plenty of witnessings making it over hills. I assume the signal is bouncing off the water in the heavy clouds (it rains here a lot). If the hill is far away, you seem to have a chance to make it over. If the hill is close, not so much. That's my hypothesis.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 5:29 PM
Yeah, I can see that wrinkle making things odd. But I would think over time it would work both ways. 🙂
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But my heavy cloud hypothesis fails with my hotspots in Palmdale, CA being witnessed in Compton. There is a damn near mountain range in between the two. There I am theorizing that I am getting benefits from people repeating traffic from Palmdale into hotspots in Los Angeles (120km away).
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KeithR
But my heavy cloud hypothesis fails with my hotspots in Palmdale, CA being witnessed in Compton. There is a damn near mountain range in between the two. There I am theorizing that I am getting benefits from people repeating traffic from Palmdale into hotspots in Los Angeles (120km away).
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 5:33 PM
It would be interesting to map the beaconing locations and witnesses on the other side of the range and see how much is getting through in each direction.
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Where can i get more information on what determines how many beacons a Hotspot will do ? And what limits this ability?
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NetWolf3d
Where can i get more information on what determines how many beacons a Hotspot will do ? And what limits this ability?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 6:03 PM
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I have read every word of hip 42, checked the tool, and been involved with the project for a while. This hip is specifically designed to reallocate rewards away from the best hotspot placements on the top of a hill, side of a mountain, on a tower, or on a tall building in favor of hotspots with average to sub par placements. By reducing incentives for placements with huge line of sights, it therefore increases the number of hotspots needed to cover the globe and the environmental impacts of the project. Hip 42 will almost completely eliminate rewards for people who have a large farm or because work in an environment that shares a single IP like a university or corporate campus, or some rural internet provider. Similarly, if you happen to not get a beacon for a while (and if you pay attention to this network you have seen a lot) this HIP will crush you and you don’t even have control over that. HIP 42 says it’s about gaming but it’s not really about gaming so much as it is about clipping the top earners, legit or gaming. Gaming is being fully addressed by hip 40 anyway. Why does helium want to do this? It’s because it seeks to weaken the position of the community of hotspot owners by weakening its best as it consolidated returns to its investors and eeks out just a shred faster coverage map growth, be dammed with your capital costs and lease expenses (and maybe that vacation you were hoping to take). I hope everyone will consider these facts and I urge you to read the hip and to vote against hip 42. (edited)
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I’ve done everything I can to make my hotspot function well enuff with a good line of sight in my city. If I start getting throttled even if I beacon 18witnesses 2-4 times everyday I will personally lead a revolution💦
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donp
I have read every word of hip 42, checked the tool, and been involved with the project for a while. This hip is specifically designed to reallocate rewards away from the best hotspot placements on the top of a hill, side of a mountain, on a tower, or on a tall building in favor of hotspots with average to sub par placements. By reducing incentives for placements with huge line of sights, it therefore increases the number of hotspots needed to cover the globe and the environmental impacts of the project. Hip 42 will almost completely eliminate rewards for people who have a large farm or because work in an environment that shares a single IP like a university or corporate campus, or some rural internet provider. Similarly, if you happen to not get a beacon for a while (and if you pay attention to this network you have seen a lot) this HIP will crush you and you don’t even have control over that. HIP 42 says it’s about gaming but it’s not really about gaming so much as it is about clipping the top earners, legit or gaming. Gaming is being fully addressed by hip 40 anyway. Why does helium want to do this? It’s because it seeks to weaken the position of the community of hotspot owners by weakening its best as it consolidated returns to its investors and eeks out just a shred faster coverage map growth, be dammed with your capital costs and lease expenses (and maybe that vacation you were hoping to take). I hope everyone will consider these facts and I urge you to read the hip and to vote against hip 42. (edited)
Can you post a few hotspot names that are great on the side of mountain? (edited)
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donp
I have read every word of hip 42, checked the tool, and been involved with the project for a while. This hip is specifically designed to reallocate rewards away from the best hotspot placements on the top of a hill, side of a mountain, on a tower, or on a tall building in favor of hotspots with average to sub par placements. By reducing incentives for placements with huge line of sights, it therefore increases the number of hotspots needed to cover the globe and the environmental impacts of the project. Hip 42 will almost completely eliminate rewards for people who have a large farm or because work in an environment that shares a single IP like a university or corporate campus, or some rural internet provider. Similarly, if you happen to not get a beacon for a while (and if you pay attention to this network you have seen a lot) this HIP will crush you and you don’t even have control over that. HIP 42 says it’s about gaming but it’s not really about gaming so much as it is about clipping the top earners, legit or gaming. Gaming is being fully addressed by hip 40 anyway. Why does helium want to do this? It’s because it seeks to weaken the position of the community of hotspot owners by weakening its best as it consolidated returns to its investors and eeks out just a shred faster coverage map growth, be dammed with your capital costs and lease expenses (and maybe that vacation you were hoping to take). I hope everyone will consider these facts and I urge you to read the hip and to vote against hip 42. (edited)
Is a BS hip 42 👎
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donp
I have read every word of hip 42, checked the tool, and been involved with the project for a while. This hip is specifically designed to reallocate rewards away from the best hotspot placements on the top of a hill, side of a mountain, on a tower, or on a tall building in favor of hotspots with average to sub par placements. By reducing incentives for placements with huge line of sights, it therefore increases the number of hotspots needed to cover the globe and the environmental impacts of the project. Hip 42 will almost completely eliminate rewards for people who have a large farm or because work in an environment that shares a single IP like a university or corporate campus, or some rural internet provider. Similarly, if you happen to not get a beacon for a while (and if you pay attention to this network you have seen a lot) this HIP will crush you and you don’t even have control over that. HIP 42 says it’s about gaming but it’s not really about gaming so much as it is about clipping the top earners, legit or gaming. Gaming is being fully addressed by hip 40 anyway. Why does helium want to do this? It’s because it seeks to weaken the position of the community of hotspot owners by weakening its best as it consolidated returns to its investors and eeks out just a shred faster coverage map growth, be dammed with your capital costs and lease expenses (and maybe that vacation you were hoping to take). I hope everyone will consider these facts and I urge you to read the hip and to vote against hip 42. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 9:18 PM
100% Wrong.
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iOS boooo (edited)
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Prediction: the last hip will be no more proof of work, just proof of stake. mrburns
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Helium’s own twitter wants you to build high. https://twitter.com/helium/status/1480636814926876673?s=21
Take your Hotspot's antenna to new heights 📡. Higher altitude setups can help increase @Helium coverage and $HNT rewards. See the full DIY flagpole installation guide by Gabriel Chaparro: https://t.co/vX5CSPj5Xc.
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cheezedawg
Anyway, my take away now is that HIP42 is probably a net positive 😀 It gets rid of obvious parasites, eliminates some cheating like witness relays, but on the other side it has the potential (unrealized so far as the examples we have seen here turned out to be other issues) to negatively impact some hotspots.
One of mine would be severely impacted by it, not sure if you've noticed but the higher number of witnessing the lower the amount of beacons sent. It would literally throttle itself down to average numbers at best.
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This HIP goes against Helium’s own advice to build high and well.
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Pretty sure this HIP was written by someone who has a bad location and wants to make more for nothing.
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donp
I have read every word of hip 42, checked the tool, and been involved with the project for a while. This hip is specifically designed to reallocate rewards away from the best hotspot placements on the top of a hill, side of a mountain, on a tower, or on a tall building in favor of hotspots with average to sub par placements. By reducing incentives for placements with huge line of sights, it therefore increases the number of hotspots needed to cover the globe and the environmental impacts of the project. Hip 42 will almost completely eliminate rewards for people who have a large farm or because work in an environment that shares a single IP like a university or corporate campus, or some rural internet provider. Similarly, if you happen to not get a beacon for a while (and if you pay attention to this network you have seen a lot) this HIP will crush you and you don’t even have control over that. HIP 42 says it’s about gaming but it’s not really about gaming so much as it is about clipping the top earners, legit or gaming. Gaming is being fully addressed by hip 40 anyway. Why does helium want to do this? It’s because it seeks to weaken the position of the community of hotspot owners by weakening its best as it consolidated returns to its investors and eeks out just a shred faster coverage map growth, be dammed with your capital costs and lease expenses (and maybe that vacation you were hoping to take). I hope everyone will consider these facts and I urge you to read the hip and to vote against hip 42. (edited)
Although I’m not in favour of this HIP, I don’t believe the conspiracy theory behind it. I’m 100% sure that @Anthonyra has nothing but good intentions for doing this. He knows a lot more about the network then me. Maybe I just don’t get it all and am I worried abt losing too much in earnings as it feels to much new chance factor is introduced. But let’s not dive into discussions in hidden agenda’s… (edited)
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Checkkill
Although I’m not in favour of this HIP, I don’t believe the conspiracy theory behind it. I’m 100% sure that @Anthonyra has nothing but good intentions for doing this. He knows a lot more about the network then me. Maybe I just don’t get it all and am I worried abt losing too much in earnings as it feels to much new chance factor is introduced. But let’s not dive into discussions in hidden agenda’s… (edited)
This. People are coming here with baseless claims of conspiracies or that the hip is meant to hurt high but fair earning hotspots. It is not
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dragomir
Prediction: the last hip will be no more proof of work, just proof of stake. mrburns
It would make sense
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I never Beacon
01:05
Only witnessed
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yeah, I can see that wrinkle making things odd. But I would think over time it would work both ways. 🙂
line of sight is not the main mode of propagation on the 900 meg band. You have tropo in the summer and during colder months - mini tropo channels open up for minutes at a time that allow long hops. Huge deal with very short bursts of data (like LORA packets) is airplane reflections. So combine the two and you get one way spotting as standard. I have 18 el Yagi on my miner, i hear lots of far away miners, as loud as locals that i get via building reflections
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Anthonyra
Please let’s all take a second and define optimal coverage. I’ll go first, you provide optimal coverage if you’re able to beacon and witness within a ratio that supports a healthy network. This HIP defines that ratio (edited)
Ok, so blokchain HAVE to prove 4 Beaconing per HS every day?
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beechball_45424 01/14/2022 4:57 AM
He hits the nail on the head. I hope everyone of you that votes you for this get 1 Beaton a day and you profit take a shit on you. This is not the right way to go about the gaming issue.
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Stardred
One of mine would be severely impacted by it, not sure if you've noticed but the higher number of witnessing the lower the amount of beacons sent. It would literally throttle itself down to average numbers at best.
beechball_45424 01/14/2022 4:59 AM
This is correct. You will be chopped off at the knees. This may very well curtail some gaming but it will certainly hurt good actors like yourself along the way.
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HIP-42 uses 2.4 beacons/day because that's the current network average.
05:22
@Anthonyra I started editing the HIP. I'll push up a PR in a little while and ping you with questions. (edited)
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HIPs should be judged on their merits. To help with this, grammar, spelling, and style should be smoothed out where ever possible. The HIP audience is generally Hotspot owners who may not have read...
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I'm reviewing right now, thank you again!
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beechball_45424
This is correct. You will be chopped off at the knees. This may very well curtail some gaming but it will certainly hurt good actors like yourself along the way.
Please provide the data to support these accusations so that this HIP can be adjusted to reflect these concerns.
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chelic
Ok, so blokchain HAVE to prove 4 Beaconing per HS every day?
This HIP specifically doesn't change beaconing behavior. It tries to explain current beaconing behavior to explain the origin of the algorithm being proposed. The network doesn't have a guaranteed number for beacons a day. It does have a theoretical max of 4 based on the IP bloom filter in place and that it gets reset every poc_challenge_interval which is currently set at 360 blocks. On the other side, there isn't a minimum amount of beacons a day a hotspot is restricted by the network either. Meaning that we can only see what an average hotspot can expect to receive based on a network average which is currently 2.4 which is where the compensation factor comes from as stated in the HIP.
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how can i check my hotspot if it will be effected ?
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Anthonyra
This HIP specifically doesn't change beaconing behavior. It tries to explain current beaconing behavior to explain the origin of the algorithm being proposed. The network doesn't have a guaranteed number for beacons a day. It does have a theoretical max of 4 based on the IP bloom filter in place and that it gets reset every poc_challenge_interval which is currently set at 360 blocks. On the other side, there isn't a minimum amount of beacons a day a hotspot is restricted by the network either. Meaning that we can only see what an average hotspot can expect to receive based on a network average which is currently 2.4 which is where the compensation factor comes from as stated in the HIP.
Ok, so... if somebody tries to maintain his network, invest more money in infrastructure, placement locations... he will be in worst situation, and somebody who pluged his miner into lan and screw his antenna will be rewarded for his "care"?! Helium is someting more than plug and don't care and this proposal is proof... proof of noting! (edited)
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chelic
Ok, so... if somebody tries to maintain his network, invest more money in infrastructure, placement locations... he will be in worst situation, and somebody who pluged his miner into lan and screw his antenna will be rewarded for his "care"?! Helium is someting more than plug and don't care and this proposal is proof... proof of noting! (edited)
Hard no, if the setup is invested in with time and effort in the end goal of being the best setup for PoC then they will not be affected (edited)
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Ok, thanks
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Those who don't take the time and effort to fix the issues such as local network problems will be affected before someone who did the work
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I know that, in my case i have from 1-4 beacons per day. With 200 witnessess per 5 days i will lose 20-30% of incomes with this proposal. In my country my miner is one of the best earner... from 1st To 4th place. I had looking for ideal locations to many days, setting internet, finding right antenna setup etc. And reward for my effort is equilizing with those who didn't move his asses from chairs. (edited)
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chelic
I know that, in my case i have from 1-4 beacons per day. With 200 witnessess per 5 days i will lose 20-30% of incomes with this proposal. In my country my miner is one of the best earner... from 1st To 4th place. I had looking for ideal locations to many days, setting internet, finding right antenna setup etc. And reward for my effort is equilizing with those who didn't move his asses from chairs. (edited)
Those who didn't move asses from chairs will affected by this more than you. Also, you have 200 wits list or you get 200 witness receipts every 5 days?
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chelic
I know that, in my case i have from 1-4 beacons per day. With 200 witnessess per 5 days i will lose 20-30% of incomes with this proposal. In my country my miner is one of the best earner... from 1st To 4th place. I had looking for ideal locations to many days, setting internet, finding right antenna setup etc. And reward for my effort is equilizing with those who didn't move his asses from chairs. (edited)
The average is 2.4 (edited)
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Anthonyra
Those who didn't move asses from chairs will affected by this more than you. Also, you have 200 wits list or you get 200 witness receipts every 5 days?
On the list
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chelic
On the list
If you have 200 wits list you are allotted 320 witness receipts per day.. You're saying you're getting 416 per day? Is this from my tool?
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beechball_45424 01/14/2022 6:51 AM
I wish Helium could tell everyone how many beacons they average per day.
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Anthonyra
If you have 200 wits list you are allotted 320 witness receipts per day.. You're saying you're getting 416 per day? Is this from my tool?
No, i am under... about 10-15 per hour
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chelic
No, i am under... about 10-15 per hour
I'm now confused..
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@chelic have you checked using the tool if your hotspots would be affected?
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I tried to assign my hs to your tool, but i cannot
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I suggest: first check, then if they're affected, come back with details.
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If you can help me
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Yes I can, if you want to DM make sure to send a friend request first (edited)
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Thank you
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beechball_45424 01/14/2022 6:57 AM
The tool won’t even let me sign in with Google
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beechball_45424
The tool won’t even let me sign in with Google
DeWi is aware of the login issues and is working on a fix. Until then you can send me the hotspot in concern and I can look it up for you if you'd like
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captainhindsight 01/14/2022 7:18 AM
There's a nest of 54 hotspots within POC range of me - all offline, all the same brand, all the same dBi and antenna. I did wonder why I hadn't seen any beacons from any of them. I guess now I know 😏
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captainhindsight
There's a nest of 54 hotspots within POC range of me - all offline, all the same brand, all the same dBi and antenna. I did wonder why I hadn't seen any beacons from any of them. I guess now I know 😏
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captainhindsight 01/14/2022 7:20 AM
Take a look - start with Noisy Quartz Blackbird and have a click around 😉
07:21
I guess they were booted off the network for spoofing 🤗
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captainhindsight
I guess they were booted off the network for spoofing 🤗
beechball_45424 01/14/2022 7:23 AM
Good! They should be banned at the hardware level. Those miners should never be allowed back on the network.
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captainhindsight
I guess they were booted off the network for spoofing 🤗
Well, sadly the GA removing that list is active.. but the vote appears to have given the green light to bring it back
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captainhindsight 01/14/2022 7:37 AM
GA?
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Anthonyra
Hard no, if the setup is invested in with time and effort in the end goal of being the best setup for PoC then they will not be affected (edited)
Unless on side of mountain over city, of course. Then you will be clipped.
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captainhindsight 01/14/2022 7:39 AM
@Anthonyra would HIP42 have stopped this in its tracks?
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captainhindsight
@Anthonyra would HIP42 have stopped this in its tracks?
Stopped what specifically?
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captainhindsight
GA?
Oh General Audience, what the firmware is tagged when released to everyone
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Anthonyra
Stopped what specifically?
captainhindsight 01/14/2022 7:42 AM
Stopped whomever owns this spoof nest from witnessing only while beaconing not at all?
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captainhindsight
Stopped whomever owns this spoof nest from witnessing only while beaconing not at all?
If they continued not to beacon yes. If they started to beacon then they'd be limited by how well they did.
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Anthonyra
If they continued not to beacon yes. If they started to beacon then they'd be limited by how well they did.
captainhindsight 01/14/2022 7:46 AM
Then I'm feeling more kindly toward HIP42 than I did yesterday
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Anthonyra
Hard no, if the setup is invested in with time and effort in the end goal of being the best setup for PoC then they will not be affected (edited)
One of mine would be severely effected, it's set up on a mountain with high gain overlooking multiple cities. From what i can tell, due to the high number of witnessing, it rarely beacons. In the last 7 days it has witnessed 444 vs 6 beacons.
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Stardred
One of mine would be severely effected, it's set up on a mountain with high gain overlooking multiple cities. From what i can tell, due to the high number of witnessing, it rarely beacons. In the last 7 days it has witnessed 444 vs 6 beacons.
Is it relayed or cellular backhauled? High gain directional? (edited)
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Rak, hard wired to fiber and not relayed, low ping and 8dbi omni
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Stardred
Rak, hard wired to fiber and not relayed, low ping and 8dbi omni
Care to share what hotspot this is... do you not max your beacons out?
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Anthonyra
Care to share what hotspot this is... do you not max your beacons out?
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Do you know if you're overshooting those cities? When witnessing it's a lot easier to get refracted beacons but if you over shoot the other hotspots (the fresnel zone specifically) you might not be covering the area you think you are... taking a look at mappers also shows this to an extent (but it's not very thoroughly mapped)... have you tested your coverage with a device by any chance? (edited)
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Anthonyra
Do you know if you're overshooting those cities? When witnessing it's a lot easier to get refracted beacons but if you over shoot the other hotspots (the fresnel zone specifically) you might not be covering the area you think you are... taking a look at mappers also shows this to an extent (but it's not very thoroughly mapped)... have you tested your coverage with a device by any chance? (edited)
Haven't gotten to testing the coverage, but it shouldn't be overshooting most of it being line of sight to over half of what it's hitting and not going over 8dbi so 30km should be well within the vertical range for the elevation difference. Anything from the Hartford area is mostly refracted though. Few weeks back it would go 4-7 days or so in between actually sending beacons on that one too, that's actually gotten better.
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Stardred
Haven't gotten to testing the coverage, but it shouldn't be overshooting most of it being line of sight to over half of what it's hitting and not going over 8dbi so 30km should be well within the vertical range for the elevation difference. Anything from the Hartford area is mostly refracted though. Few weeks back it would go 4-7 days or so in between actually sending beacons on that one too, that's actually gotten better.
Just based on the setup described and the witnesses you're getting I'd expect the beacons to be capped. But they barely exceed 4 witnesses at times..
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Anthonyra
Just based on the setup described and the witnesses you're getting I'd expect the beacons to be capped. But they barely exceed 4 witnesses at times..
One of the times I definitely miss discovery mode lol
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Stardred
One of the times I definitely miss discovery mode lol
Right, I think there's definitely something up though. But I fully understand if you're against the HIP due to the current situation. If it was implemented tomorrow, you'd be affected. However, at the earliest we're probably a couple of months out. But I hope you can debug the setup before anything get's pushed. The best next step would be to do some surveys of the areas you're trying to cover with a device. Because, messing with the setup will probably make you chase your tail at first.
08:59
Kind of expensive but a https://glamos.eu/product/walker/ or https://www.adeunis.com/en/produit/ftd-network-tester/ so you don't have to worry about a dashboard any crazy console things.. Just run around getting signal strength readings and pinging the network.
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Anthonyra
Right, I think there's definitely something up though. But I fully understand if you're against the HIP due to the current situation. If it was implemented tomorrow, you'd be affected. However, at the earliest we're probably a couple of months out. But I hope you can debug the setup before anything get's pushed. The best next step would be to do some surveys of the areas you're trying to cover with a device. Because, messing with the setup will probably make you chase your tail at first.
The dense cover areas it's hitting are urban, likely most of them are indoor with stock antennas especially looking at the beaconing within those cities, from what I could tell without directly testing the coverage it's likely that a majority are providing poor coverage, which the HIP would penalize me for. Just something for you to consider since I'm sure I'm not the only one with the same situation that actually isn't gaming the network 😉
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noliturbare 01/14/2022 9:32 AM
HIP42 seems as a bad idea as long as Helium’s network (for whatever reason) cannot guarantee that a hotspot will beacon daily or even once in 5 days. Here is an example of a normal, not gaming hotspot that witnesses but just does not beacon for days: https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/1124ePfdfESkPSg98EEMAYSm2ceg8nzbUdAU69vXLBjJjrerrdea/activity (edited)
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09:33
so, for a very ambiguous objective, such hotspots will be crippled. until someone finds that oops, there was some kind of a bug in the firmware why we had so many hotspots not beaconing
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captainhindsight 01/14/2022 9:40 AM
@Anthonyra that wallet I found earlier with 45 offline hotspots - just looked again and there are now 60 hotspots - some in Germany. Someone has a big spoofing setup here!
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captainhindsight
@Anthonyra that wallet I found earlier with 45 offline hotspots - just looked again and there are now 60 hotspots - some in Germany. Someone has a big spoofing setup here!
This HIP isn't directed at that problem.. I did write a HIP... HIP-14 that was intended to do that.. but be gentle this was pre HIP-15/17 and some things have changed since first introduction. I want to bring back a variation of it to replace HIP-17 though and work along with HIP-15.. but one thing at a time 🙂 (edited)
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captainhindsight 01/14/2022 9:44 AM
Wallet ID is 138MGMMR2E4pGVz8vsD9oTgnXRuEWmK4RWfFyMdLYbhDokJRjKS
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captainhindsight
Wallet ID is 138MGMMR2E4pGVz8vsD9oTgnXRuEWmK4RWfFyMdLYbhDokJRjKS
Recommend slapping that on https://suspots.com for now to be saved from the discord void
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Anthonyra
Recommend slapping that on https://suspots.com for now to be saved from the discord void
captainhindsight 01/14/2022 9:47 AM
Thanks - I'll do that now
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captainhindsight
Thanks - I'll do that now
Brainstormer 01/14/2022 9:54 AM
are you convinced now to move to the right side?
09:55
have you noticed if your beaconing rate went up?
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Brainstormer
are you convinced now to move to the right side?
captainhindsight 01/14/2022 9:56 AM
I'm still not 100% but much of my displeasure yesterday came off the back of believing some incorrect calculations (edited)
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Brainstormer 01/14/2022 9:56 AM
if you have a dead cluster around you, you should be beaconing more
09:57
we'll talk elsewhere so it doesn't take up this important hip. sorry
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captainhindsight 01/14/2022 9:58 AM
I'm assuming the fact these 60 hotspots are all offline means they've already been detected and shut down. Suspots.com seems to want me to report individual hotspots, when it would be much easier to submit the entire wallet
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captainhindsight
I'm assuming the fact these 60 hotspots are all offline means they've already been detected and shut down. Suspots.com seems to want me to report individual hotspots, when it would be much easier to submit the entire wallet
@Radrob Is the handler of that site, not sure if there's a feedback or suggested features area or request.
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captainhindsight
I'm assuming the fact these 60 hotspots are all offline means they've already been detected and shut down. Suspots.com seems to want me to report individual hotspots, when it would be much easier to submit the entire wallet
The general idea with suspots was not to hold a record of every single gaming hotspot. Instead it is a place to report hotspots such that behaviors and techniques could be understood. Adding a couple hotspots from that wallet is really all thats necessary as the rest is just redundant information (edited)
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Radrob
The general idea with suspots was not to hold a record of every single gaming hotspot. Instead it is a place to report hotspots such that behaviors and techniques could be understood. Adding a couple hotspots from that wallet is really all thats necessary as the rest is just redundant information (edited)
captainhindsight 01/14/2022 10:16 AM
Yes - I see that I can check a box to indicate that the wallet contains only witnessing hotspots. It's really quite fascinating - I've scrolled back in their activity to mid December when these hospots miraculously travelled 5,700 miles in the blink of an eye 😄
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i honestly thought there would never be a deny list so jokes on me
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Radrob
i honestly thought there would never be a deny list so jokes on me
captainhindsight 01/14/2022 10:17 AM
There may never have been, had you not drawn attention with your website 🤝
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Radrob
i honestly thought there would never be a deny list so jokes on me
Wen suspots list?
coolcry 3
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Anthonyra
Wen suspots list?
#memes made with love ❤️
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https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112hMth9q3dNTqcDtShThfMRGK63H1jXgbbgoLxKMuptnLxLVCtf/activity Dear community members! tell me such a thing about this member of the network. It was not at the installation site, but it is there, It does only Witness and nothing else.... It does not display activity! How is this possible? He was on the block list , but today he disappeared from there and writes that in the future he will not be blocked ....
14:05
he does Witness every 2 or 3 minutes and does nothing else...
14:07
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KeHna4uK
https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112hMth9q3dNTqcDtShThfMRGK63H1jXgbbgoLxKMuptnLxLVCtf/activity Dear community members! tell me such a thing about this member of the network. It was not at the installation site, but it is there, It does only Witness and nothing else.... It does not display activity! How is this possible? He was on the block list , but today he disappeared from there and writes that in the future he will not be blocked ....
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/14/2022 2:52 PM
They cheat.
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13sTnrBVBmjLgWuCqsWAizVs7H2JNsUuYqNpjhMKxvNVhozdk3j
15:16
See this wallet and explane
15:17
75 hnt Day 🙄 1 hotspot 4 hnt Day
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beechball_45424
Good! They should be banned at the hardware level. Those miners should never be allowed back on the network.
itsshowtime 01/14/2022 3:19 PM
What about them selling their miners to unsuspecting buyers? Are there provisions to limit that? Is there a way to implement this in a way it doesn't impact new potential buyers?
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itsshowtime
What about them selling their miners to unsuspecting buyers? Are there provisions to limit that? Is there a way to implement this in a way it doesn't impact new potential buyers?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/14/2022 4:40 PM
Banned hotspots would be on a list and in places like explorer so that anyone can check a miner before buying.
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KeHna4uK
https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112hMth9q3dNTqcDtShThfMRGK63H1jXgbbgoLxKMuptnLxLVCtf/activity Dear community members! tell me such a thing about this member of the network. It was not at the installation site, but it is there, It does only Witness and nothing else.... It does not display activity! How is this possible? He was on the block list , but today he disappeared from there and writes that in the future he will not be blocked ....
Deleted User 01/14/2022 5:37 PM
says 30m , and they send beacons. what's your concern?
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itsshowtime
What about them selling their miners to unsuspecting buyers? Are there provisions to limit that? Is there a way to implement this in a way it doesn't impact new potential buyers?
miners that are on the blacklist will not be transferrable
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 01/14/2022 8:05 PM
love the idea and intent, but don't like it at this stage of the network. This looks like it will hurt those people with remote locations or little technical experience the most. almost all of the hotspots have various issues causing them to go down constantly.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
love the idea and intent, but don't like it at this stage of the network. This looks like it will hurt those people with remote locations or little technical experience the most. almost all of the hotspots have various issues causing them to go down constantly.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/14/2022 8:12 PM
It would not be activated until the p2p issues were resolved.
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WantClue
miners that are on the blacklist will not be transferrable
As far as I know, a large number of second-hand miners have been sold to new customers. Secondary sales itself is not a mistake, but also inevitable. Denylist has to work from the code and inspection mechanism,
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Hi someone can tell me how to know if I miner is ob blacklist?
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XchemicaL
Hi someone can tell me how to know if I miner is ob blacklist?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/15/2022 3:04 AM
Wrong channel. You want #hip-40-validator-denylist
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Okay thanks
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I can't login to the tool (even with a gmail account) but as I read and understand HIP42 the daily witness number that your hotspot will be capped at would work out to 8 times your 5 day 'Total Witnesses' number. So for example if my 'Total Witness' number is 176 for the past 5 days I reckon my daily witness will be capped at 1408. Not that I have anywhere close to that. Can anyone let me know if my understanding is correct.
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Zippy
I can't login to the tool (even with a gmail account) but as I read and understand HIP42 the daily witness number that your hotspot will be capped at would work out to 8 times your 5 day 'Total Witnesses' number. So for example if my 'Total Witness' number is 176 for the past 5 days I reckon my daily witness will be capped at 1408. Not that I have anywhere close to that. Can anyone let me know if my understanding is correct.
Your daily cap will be 1408 / 5 = 282
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Deleted User
says 30m , and they send beacons. what's your concern?
is this your serious question? especially after one of the team members replied to me that he was a cheater ?
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XchemicaL
Hi someone can tell me how to know if I miner is ob blacklist?
Deleted User 01/15/2022 5:47 AM
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Anthonyra
Your daily cap will be 1408 / 5 = 282
Many thanks, I had my maths wrong. It's the 5 day Total Witnesses x 1.6. So yes, in my case 176 x 1.6 = 282. That works for me! Any closer to sorting out the difficulties with the tool login?
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Zippy
Many thanks, I had my maths wrong. It's the 5 day Total Witnesses x 1.6. So yes, in my case 176 x 1.6 = 282. That works for me! Any closer to sorting out the difficulties with the tool login?
It don't work for me using chrome but opened with Firefox browser....?
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KeHna4uK
is this your serious question? especially after one of the team members replied to me that he was a cheater ?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/15/2022 11:57 AM
What team?
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Zippy
Many thanks, I had my maths wrong. It's the 5 day Total Witnesses x 1.6. So yes, in my case 176 x 1.6 = 282. That works for me! Any closer to sorting out the difficulties with the tool login?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/15/2022 11:59 AM
Again, the folks in #data-analysis can fix it for you.
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How the heck do you add or look up a miner for the PoC hip42 by name? Never used these tools before and no button seems to work.
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Figured it out (turn phone sideways). How the heck did this pass? 5 day limit to witness ratio is 8 per witness. Half rte network does more than that. What am I missing? Would love for this to be a simple formula but the hip fails to explain it in a way most can understand.
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Yeah, I'd be interested in understanding how it's all calculated a little bit better. The hip confuses me even in the way it's organized, let alone the exact wording. I'm not impacted by it according to that tool, but not understanding it is a little frustrating.
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Radiant Laurel Pelican (not mine but I know the owner)
16:37
Their beacons only ever get two people for some reason. Makes for a pretty low cap. They have an 8 dbi antenna. Perhaps lower would do better but they are some distance from most other miners... some of which they witness. Haven't studied it a lot but I know the owner is trying to brainstorm how to figure out getting more witnesses at this point. They always were trying to figure it out and put some effort into the setup... but they've obviously got more incentive now. (edited)
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I just don't get it. Read every word and it seems to not fully explain. Even using the tool created questions on how it calculates. I have one miner with 17 different witnesses, has a witness limit of 26. Another has 2 different witnesses and a limit of 2. Those don't match in terms of ratio. Why?
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17 x 8 ÷ 5 = 27.2 16 x 8 ÷ 5 = 25.6 I think that's the math I saw above. Maybe you're in-between 16 and 17 with an average? 2 x 8 ÷ 5 = 3.2 1 x 8 ÷ 5 = 1.6 Maybe the other is in-between 1 and 2 with an average? It's all at least close ... though I don't really get it.
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Effecting myself . I have got 4 hs at costly locations and all ll be effected … keep on punishing people who have put alot to get a good location for their hs and betterment of network
19:55
A hs doesnt beacon, a p2p issue. Why i am being punished ?
19:55
On hotspotty over 300 witnesses but in explorer showing only 80
20:01
Explorer witness over 5 days 135. Hotspotyyy shows witness number to be 416.
20:05
I am in full favour of hip 42 but it should be ensured legitimate hotspots arent effected. Like i am not having 0 or 1 witnesses. ( which most of the gaming hs have only 0 to 1 witnesses) . I have over 400 witnesses so first p2p fix should be ensured . Then legitimate hs shouldnt be effected. At the same time i am in full favour of giving cheaters a hard time via this hip
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So I'm late to the HIP42 train but what happens when you don't beacon 4 times a day? I barely get 1
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I go days without beaconing sometimes...don't understand why it's so inconsistent
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So what if I improve my setup? IE: move from a window to the roof and get a stronger antenna high up. Am I capped at my old setup or will it recalculate once I enter my new setup details?
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R0n!n
So what if I improve my setup? IE: move from a window to the roof and get a stronger antenna high up. Am I capped at my old setup or will it recalculate once I enter my new setup details?
It will recalculate when you update it on the app
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Well, I am on the fence now. Voted in favour, set up an offgrid with VPN so it wouldn't be relayed and would beacon, hasn't beaconed in two days. (edited)
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Exactly. Helium's beaconing is wildly inconsistent. With my four miners my rolling 5 day beacon total wasn't consistent. Some days 0, some would get to 4. Don't think I've ever had a day with more than four on any of miners yet I have a lot of days with only 1 or 2. Basing any type of punishment off beacons is a joke. That part of helium has to get better before you can do so.
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Yeah, I mean, if we're going to depend on something so inconsistent, then this HIP isn't ready for primetime. (edited)
10:38
The problem with these HIPs that limit earnings (42/44) is that people just vote in self-interest
10:38
"Oh, my hotspots beacon properly? OK getting rid of everyone who doesn't means more HNT for me"
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I believe the network claims a beacon average is every 420 blocks which would be 3.42 a day. None of my four average that or close to it. My best averages 2.57 a day in the past 7 days. Overall average of all of them is 2.1 and it's been this way for the 2.5 months I've been mining.
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I have two LTE units on VPNs set up exactly the same way, one beacons multiple times a day and the other hasn't in two days
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Problem with the whole voting system is it's HNT based. A handful of whales decide everything. It should be 1 miner, 1 vote or every wallet with active miner gets 1 vote.
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DaBum
Problem with the whole voting system is it's HNT based. A handful of whales decide everything. It should be 1 miner, 1 vote or every wallet with active miner gets 1 vote.
Even if the votes were simply 1:1 the for would be 72% and no would be 28%. With that being said this vote simply puts me to work. The next vote will decide when it goes live
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Good luck with the dev work!
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DaBum
I believe the network claims a beacon average is every 420 blocks which would be 3.42 a day. None of my four average that or close to it. My best averages 2.57 a day in the past 7 days. Overall average of all of them is 2.1 and it's been this way for the 2.5 months I've been mining.
shadowmeree 01/16/2022 3:48 PM
God forbid you get challenged by a hotspot that's relayed or has terrible internet. With ~2 beacons a day all one needs is a few unlucky zero-witness beacons in a row to tank your witness list
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Carl-bot BOT 01/16/2022 3:48 PM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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DaBum
Problem with the whole voting system is it's HNT based. A handful of whales decide everything. It should be 1 miner, 1 vote or every wallet with active miner gets 1 vote.
Do I have this correct that there were approximately 1 million HNT voted with a current 103 million circulating supply? Seems like a rather small amount of HNT voted though relative to the circulating supply.
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itsshowtime
Do I have this correct that there were approximately 1 million HNT voted with a current 103 million circulating supply? Seems like a rather small amount of HNT voted though relative to the circulating supply.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 10:32 AM
A lot of people don't care to vote. Also, a lot of hnt is with wallets that can't vote.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
A lot of people don't care to vote. Also, a lot of hnt is with wallets that can't vote.
That is what I was curious of with the wallets that cant vote. Are these wallets owned/affiliated with Helium itself? Any idea on the number of ineligible voting HNT exist?
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itsshowtime
That is what I was curious of with the wallets that cant vote. Are these wallets owned/affiliated with Helium itself? Any idea on the number of ineligible voting HNT exist?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 11:48 AM
A lot would be exchanges...
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Custom50ford 01/17/2022 1:37 PM
This HIP is total BS. EVERY single one of my hotspots will be clipped.
13:39
I guess I should just leave the stock antenna on, and put it behind a double pane window
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so let me get this straight.... this witness cap is based on how many beacons are sent out. Which in theory should be 4 per day but its not a garauntee. I have a pretty good setup with pretty good coverage across a city. However going back 60 days I have close to an average of 2 beacons a day. Seems like the theory of 4 per day is BROKE. so now instead of having a cap of the 360 "in theory" Im going to be limited to 160 because the "The current mechanism for targeting a hotspot for a challenge is also limited by an IP bloom filter which is reset based on the poc_challenge_interval chain variable." is broken and out of my control.... This makes perfect sense to me
15:40
heres an idea... Stop trying to base a cap on something that is clearly broken (yes if it not hitting the desired theoretical of 4 its broken) and since the ideal of the network is 4 beacons a day then set everyone to the 360 limit. If their setup is broken they wont hit 360 and if they are gaming the system they wont get past 360. And hey you dont screw legitimate people that are getting screwed by the broken poc_challenge_interval chain variable
15:44
"As a secondary function this will also clip setups such as Clever Smoke Raven until they provide both components to PoC" hmmm that guys earnings is 0.127 HNT for 30 days.
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Custom50ford
This HIP is total BS. EVERY single one of my hotspots will be clipped.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 3:47 PM
So you checked them all on the calculator? What is wrong with your hotspots?
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DevilBear
"As a secondary function this will also clip setups such as Clever Smoke Raven until they provide both components to PoC" hmmm that guys earnings is 0.127 HNT for 30 days.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 3:49 PM
It is now... It was about 20hnt per day back when this was written.
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so in other words hip 42 is now trying to fix a problem that doesnt exist with POC11 (edited)
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DevilBear
so in other words hip 42 is now trying to fix a problem that doesnt exist with POC11 (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 3:51 PM
The problem still exists. Just not with that old group of hotspots.
15:51
Anyway, this would not be activated until the p2p issues are resolved. No one is looking to screw over legit hotspots. 🙂
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and you have no issue that poc_challenge_interval chain variable is broken?
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DevilBear
and you have no issue that poc_challenge_interval chain variable is broken?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 3:52 PM
I just addressed that 🙂
15:53
brb
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
So you checked them all on the calculator? What is wrong with your hotspots?
Custom50ford 01/17/2022 3:54 PM
Yes, I checked them in the calculator. Nothing is "wrong" them - they are properly setup and optimized. All of them are LEGIT. For on-grid I do a rooftop antenna usually 5-8 dbi and for off-grid I obviously look for areas that overlook massive amounts of miners.
15:56
I suppose I "could" be misinterpreting the TRUE/FALSE response...
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Custom50ford
Yes, I checked them in the calculator. Nothing is "wrong" them - they are properly setup and optimized. All of them are LEGIT. For on-grid I do a rooftop antenna usually 5-8 dbi and for off-grid I obviously look for areas that overlook massive amounts of miners.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 3:57 PM
ok.... But if you are being limited, there is something wrong. Good setups have to beacon also. If your ratio is so off that this would affect you, something is wrong.
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Custom50ford
I guess I should just leave the stock antenna on, and put it behind a double pane window
Don't be such a drama queen. The hip serves a good purpose and the ban requirements will be developed and tweaked to be fair. If you don't cheat, your hotspots will continue to work well (edited)
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Custom50ford
I suppose I "could" be misinterpreting the TRUE/FALSE response...
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 3:58 PM
Perhaps, but unlikely. Do you have an example hotspot we could look at? 🙂
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zzeddd
Don't be such a drama queen. The hip serves a good purpose and the ban requirements will be developed and tweaked to be fair. If you don't cheat, your hotspots will continue to work well (edited)
Custom50ford 01/17/2022 3:58 PM
I don't like socialism either. If I am smarter and work harder than other people I should be able to make more than them
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Lol. That's a long and far off topic discussion
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
ok.... But if you are being limited, there is something wrong. Good setups have to beacon also. If your ratio is so off that this would affect you, something is wrong.
Custom50ford 01/17/2022 3:59 PM
My ratio ranges from 80-90%
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Custom50ford
I don't like socialism either. If I am smarter and work harder than other people I should be able to make more than them
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 3:59 PM
This has nothing to do with socialism.
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15:59
Unlike what some people will try to say, this is not about taking away from some to give to the masses. lol
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Custom50ford 01/17/2022 3:59 PM
not really, you are telling me to quit complaining about getting clipped when I put in the effort to create good setups...no different (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The problem still exists. Just not with that old group of hotspots.
please provide an example... the one specifically called out in the proposal is no longer an issue
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DevilBear
please provide an example... the one specifically called out in the proposal is no longer an issue
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:00 PM
There are recent examples over in the #poc-discussion channel. I'd have to dig back a few days to find them again.
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Custom50ford
not really, you are telling me to quit complaining about getting clipped when I put in the effort to create good setups...no different (edited)
How do you know you are getting clipped? Can you please share an example of one of your hotspots, then we can tell you how it looks
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Custom50ford 01/17/2022 4:00 PM
None of my stuff is on relay, but I have gone 5+ days without being challenged/issuing a beacon more than once. So my witness count can vary anywhere from 0-200
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DevilBear
please provide an example... the one specifically called out in the proposal is no longer an issue
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:01 PM
It's the "witness receipt copying/witness stuffing" exploit. Been going on for over 2 year at this point.
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Custom50ford
None of my stuff is on relay, but I have gone 5+ days without being challenged/issuing a beacon more than once. So my witness count can vary anywhere from 0-200
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:02 PM
5 days without beaconing speaks to something wrong with your setup 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
There are recent examples over in the #poc-discussion channel. I'd have to dig back a few days to find them again.
this hotspot faint dijon gerbil was (key word was) doing $7k a month... some changes just before POC11 and POC11 and now its been reigned in.
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Custom50ford 01/17/2022 4:03 PM
so it runs fine for a month then no beacons sent for 5 days...no changes
16:03
please
16:03
it's issues w p2p
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DevilBear
this hotspot faint dijon gerbil was (key word was) doing $7k a month... some changes just before POC11 and POC11 and now its been reigned in.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:03 PM
POC11 wasn't about gaming. The timing is not related.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
5 days without beaconing speaks to something wrong with your setup 🙂
Incorrect... in the last 60 days Ive had 1 sent beacon on 12 of those days
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Custom50ford
it's issues w p2p
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:03 PM
Again, we would need an example hotspot to track down the issue.
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There is zero wrong with my setup... theres issues on the helium network but there is zero wrong with my setup
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DevilBear
Incorrect... in the last 60 days Ive had 1 sent beacon on 12 of those days
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:05 PM
I've lost track of the number of people that come on here with "good setups" only to find out that there is something wrong with the setup. Forgive me if I don't believe without proof.
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Ill bet you $100 you can not find a single thing wrong with ripe lipstick viper. (edited)
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Custom50ford 01/17/2022 4:07 PM
lets see... Roof mounted 5.8 dbi antenna 12' LMR 400. Static IP, port forward, fiber internet. not much else to it
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and that URL didnt work
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DevilBear
Ill bet you $100 you can not find a single thing wrong with ripe lipstick viper. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:07 PM
That you for the example. I'll take a look 🙂
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Custom50ford
lets see... Roof mounted 5.8 dbi antenna 12' LMR 400. Static IP, port forward, fiber internet. not much else to it
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:07 PM
Sounds nice 🙂
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Good example of a cheating miner. 28 witnesses in 5 days, yet 1300 beacons and 2,2HNT/24h. A real 3dbi antenna on that location would reach a lot more and closer miners, with less beacons. This one benefits from packet forwarding, a cheat https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112Ztp8NE5ddr3kW2a3CcJsXnMmHLGH53VgpBWNcorprrLW5t3vS (edited)
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DevilBear
and that URL didnt work
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:07 PM
Yeah, the name one doesn't work right now. The address one does (edited)
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go to the Beacons transmitted and use 112NJfnh6Xa5o4LShkvNfPvgUhAksTYdJwBewPecdcCQvWXFMbfJ and you'll see out of 60 days did I only hit the in theory value only 5 days (edited)
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DevilBear
Ill bet you $100 you can not find a single thing wrong with ripe lipstick viper. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:10 PM
Umm... Ripe Lipstick Viper is not affected. 🤨
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https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/13PtzcnXEMEFt2Av86KHQbHPL5PNDKh741aYKpHpqDbfB5VnhXb/hotspots This wallet and its magically performing miners only took 83 HNT rewards in past 24h. Or 0,1% (1/1000th) of all network rewards, while having just 67 hotspots..
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zzeddd
Good example of a cheating miner. 28 witnesses in 5 days, yet 1300 beacons and 2,2HNT/24h. A real 3dbi antenna on that location would reach a lot more and closer miners, with less beacons. This one benefits from packet forwarding, a cheat https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112Ztp8NE5ddr3kW2a3CcJsXnMmHLGH53VgpBWNcorprrLW5t3vS (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:10 PM
Yeah, good example of the exploit
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DevilBear
go to the Beacons transmitted and use 112NJfnh6Xa5o4LShkvNfPvgUhAksTYdJwBewPecdcCQvWXFMbfJ and you'll see out of 60 days did I only hit the in theory value only 5 days (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:11 PM
Where are you looking?
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zzeddd
https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/13PtzcnXEMEFt2Av86KHQbHPL5PNDKh741aYKpHpqDbfB5VnhXb/hotspots This wallet and its magically performing miners only took 83 HNT rewards in past 24h. Or 0,1% (1/1000th) of all network rewards, while having just 67 hotspots..
And all CotX devices. Really lovely to see those on the network..
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zzeddd
And all CotX devices. Really lovely to see those on the network..
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:12 PM
"If your company name ends in "X", GTFO." lol (edited)
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You hardly see Bobcat or Sensecaps used for cheating. It's always Cal-Chip, Pisces, CotX or other smaller parties. Ban CotX again please
16:13
Bad hardware anyway
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zzeddd
You hardly see Bobcat or Sensecaps used for cheating. It's always Cal-Chip, Pisces, CotX or other smaller parties. Ban CotX again please
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:13 PM
16:13
Anyway... @DevilBear Your hotspot is not affected.
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actually it is... because of the broken network
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I should have 4 beacons a day with a limit of 360... Im limits to 160
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:14 PM
HIP42 would not affect it at all
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Thats being affected
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:15 PM
This HIP does not change when you beacon
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yeah, good example of the exploit
how are you so sure that such a good example of an exploit
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Thanks, interesting. Really a lot of PanterX.. your theory is correct. Bobcat's 6k is not that bad considering their total number of devices on the network
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
This HIP does not change when you beacon
That fact that it relies on a broken mechanism means its broken as well
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DevilBear
how are you so sure that such a good example of an exploit
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:16 PM
Did you look at it? The only more classic example is the ones that don't have any witnesses at all
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DevilBear
That fact that it relies on a broken mechanism means its broken as well
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:17 PM
You literally don't get affected in any way, even with your below max beacons
16:17
You do understand that that beacon number is the MAX beacons right now, right?
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Also please check other miners in that area. Normal miners have a good coverage nearby and reach some hotspots far away. The exploit example has a couple very specific witnesses.. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:18 PM
Just because you're not sending out max beacons, doesn't mean anything is actually wrong
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Custom50ford 01/17/2022 4:18 PM
But, didn't you say that not sending out beacons = something wrong with my setup?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:18 PM
Challenges are random.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You do understand that that beacon number is the MAX beacons right now, right?
You do understand 4 is not the max in a day
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Custom50ford
But, didn't you say that not sending out beacons = something wrong with my setup?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:19 PM
I said if your ratio was so bad that you are affected, then something is wrong. (edited)
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Custom50ford 01/17/2022 4:19 PM
I get that they are random, it's just that I've gone 5 days more than once with more than one hotspot
16:19
so, anywhere from 0-200
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DevilBear
You do understand 4 is not the max in a day
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:20 PM
You're also not guaranteed the average either...
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DevilBear
You do understand 4 is not the max in a day
Important note here. This hip takes the p2p issues into account. I believe it’s using the current avg of 2.4 beacons per day and not the theoretical 4. He added plenty of buffer to compensate
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But yet here we are trying tio set a hard cap limit per based on a random and broken metric.... what could go wrong
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Custom50ford
I get that they are random, it's just that I've gone 5 days more than once with more than one hotspot
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:20 PM
An that's not normal, even with the usual network activity. Something is up with your setup.
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DevilBear
But yet here we are trying tio set a hard cap limit per based on a random and broken metric.... what could go wrong
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:21 PM
The limit is set so that legit hotspots still are not affected even when the network is acting up. There is a lot of buffer built in.
16:22
Name Public Address Witness List Witness Receipts 5 Day Receipts Limit Witness Limit Cap Affected by HIP42 ripe-lipstick-viper 112NJfnh6Xa5o4LShkvNfPvgUhAksTYdJwBewPecdcCQvWXFMbfJ 100 220 800 160 false You're not affected
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Carl-bot BOT 01/17/2022 4:22 PM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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Custom50ford 01/17/2022 4:23 PM
so, if nothing in my setup changed, and my 5 day count goes from 200 to 0. How is that my setup?
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"I've lost track of the number of people that come on here with "good setups" only to find out that there is something wrong with the setup. Forgive me if I don't believe without proof." your words. Did you find anything showing wrong with my setup?
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Custom50ford
so, if nothing in my setup changed, and my 5 day count goes from 200 to 0. How is that my setup?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:23 PM
Likely it there was always an issue.
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Custom50ford 01/17/2022 4:23 PM
WOW
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DevilBear
"I've lost track of the number of people that come on here with "good setups" only to find out that there is something wrong with the setup. Forgive me if I don't believe without proof." your words. Did you find anything showing wrong with my setup?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:24 PM
No, because your hotspot is not affected by HIP42 in the first place.
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and yet over a 60 day Im about 50% below the desired amount of beacons
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Custom50ford
WOW
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:25 PM
Again, hard to tell without an example. You say your whole fleet is affected. Should be easy to provide an example. 🙂
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DevilBear
and yet over a 60 day Im about 50% below the desired amount of beacons
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:25 PM
Again, where are you seeing that data? And yet you still are not affected. If that doesn't show the buffer built in, nothing will.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
No, because your hotspot is not affected by HIP42 in the first place.
I strongly disagree.... hip42 relies on sent beacons and I can clearly show you the network desired target of number of sent beacons is not being met.
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DevilBear
I strongly disagree.... hip42 relies on sent beacons and I can clearly show you the network desired target of number of sent beacons is not being met.
16:27
The compensation factor in this HIP compensates for this concern
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DevilBear
I strongly disagree.... hip42 relies on sent beacons and I can clearly show you the network desired target of number of sent beacons is not being met.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:27 PM
It literally says "False". You are not affected by HIP42. (edited)
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go to https://etl.dewi.org/question/new and search for beacons.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It literally says "False". You are not affected by HIP42. (edited)
What part of the number of beacons per day is broken therefore anything based on using the number of beacons is also broken? Its fair straight forward logic
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DevilBear
What part of the number of beacons per day is broken therefore anything based on using the number of beacons is also broken? Its fair straight forward logic
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:29 PM
What part of "HIP42 does not limit you" was unclear?
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16:29
HIP42 does not affect your beacons or the number of witnesses you have.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
What part of "HIP42 does not limit you" was unclear?
HIP42 is showing it doesnt affect me because it's broken by being based on the number of beacons
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DevilBear
HIP42 is showing it doesnt affect me because it's broken by being based on the number of beacons
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:31 PM
It says false because your witness to witnessing ratio is fine.
16:32
You literally don't have any issue here.
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If the beacons were being anywhere nearly the desired target my limit should be 360 and not 160 and hip42 would limit me to 160 which is 200 less than 360 which means I would be affected. But because hip42 is relying on a broken fgeature of the network its reporting of affected / non affected is broken
facepalm 1
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:32 PM
If you want to complain about not beaconing as much as you would like, this is not the channel for it.
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DevilBear
If the beacons were being anywhere nearly the desired target my limit should be 360 and not 160 and hip42 would limit me to 160 which is 200 less than 360 which means I would be affected. But because hip42 is relying on a broken fgeature of the network its reporting of affected / non affected is broken
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:33 PM
What does it matter? You don't witness enough to need anywhere close to that many beacons.
16:34
And if your activity picked up (more witnessing), so would your witness list. It's a ratio for a reason.
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Carl-bot BOT 01/17/2022 4:34 PM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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Nice circular logic there....
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DevilBear
Nice circular logic there....
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:35 PM
It's cause and effect.
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yeah its cause and effect... the beaconing metric is BROKEN therefore HIP42 relying on it make HIP42 BROKEN (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:36 PM
It's like you complaining the speed limit is 65mph when your little scooter can only go 45mph. lol
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Have you looked at how many hotspots Im sitting in the middle of??
16:37
Your analogy is completely off
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DevilBear
Have you looked at how many hotspots Im sitting in the middle of??
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:37 PM
Yes I did. I know that you have a nice ~56km range.
16:37
What of it.
16:37
You don't have enough activity for your beacons to come anywhere close to limiting you.
16:38
It's a moot point. You're complaining about a non-problem.
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Custom50ford 01/17/2022 4:38 PM
Forgive me if I'm a little paranoid and don't like to give out that info. Either way, it doesn't matter b/c the vote passed and the train is going to leave the station. As I said, all of my hotspots earn 80% or more from witnessing. And, I have seen 5+ days without being challenged more than once, and on more than one hotspot. All with no changes to the setup. You can keep telling me it's my setup, but we all know there is enough chatter about p2p problems that ignoring that and simply blaming my setup is a little misguided.
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my witness list is not being restricted by my setup. My setup is a very good setup. Its the Helium network with broken metrics that is limiting me. and HIP42 only compounds that limiting
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Carl-bot BOT 01/17/2022 4:39 PM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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Custom50ford 01/17/2022 4:39 PM
I am all for blocking the cheater as much as the next guy, I just don't like the notion of clipping legit folks. Yes, I understand that's a big feat
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DevilBear
Have you looked at how many hotspots Im sitting in the middle of??
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:39 PM
You would literally have to 4x your witnessing with no increase in witnesses to have any issue. That's not going to happen.
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Custom50ford
I am all for blocking the cheater as much as the next guy, I just don't like the notion of clipping legit folks. Yes, I understand that's a big feat
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:40 PM
Agreed. That's why the channel is here. To gather data to make sure hotspots that are good for the network are not affected. 🙂 (edited)
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Custom50ford 01/17/2022 4:40 PM
I'm cool with averaging the 2 per day or whatever the network average is over the period, esp b/c there is the multiplier in the HIP
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You would literally have to 4x your witnessing with no increase in witnesses to have any issue. That's not going to happen.
You really dont get it... witnessing is not a function of sent beacons.
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Custom50ford
I'm cool with averaging the 2 per day or whatever the network average is over the period, esp b/c there is the multiplier in the HIP
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:42 PM
There was an idea to have a var to adjust automatically when the beacon rate is adjusted again.
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witnessing = processing INBOUND traffic. sent beacons = OUTBOUNd traffic
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
There was an idea to have a var to adjust automatically when the beacon rate is adjusted again.
Custom50ford 01/17/2022 4:43 PM
And that would be fine too.
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DevilBear
You really dont get it... witnessing is not a function of sent beacons.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:43 PM
Bi-directional is a function of a healthy network.
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Custom50ford 01/17/2022 4:43 PM
Just sayin' that I've seen several days w/o a beacon more than once
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the number of sent beacons is arbitrarily determined by the helium network and there is zero you can do to increase your sent beacons
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Custom50ford 01/17/2022 4:44 PM
and that would affect my cap which affect my earnings
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:44 PM
If you're just witnessing, your hotspot is a parasite on the network, sponging up PoC rewards (edited)
16:44
brb
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
If you're just witnessing, your hotspot is a parasite on the network, sponging up PoC rewards (edited)
and I dont fall into the category
16:46
My issue is that over a 60 day period the daily average of sent beacons is around 2. The helium networks desired target is published as 4. Im fine with some specific days being less than 4 or even greater than 4 as long as the long term average is close to the desired target of 4
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:46 PM
back
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HIP42 is directly using the number of sent beacons to establish a limit on how many witnesses you can have.
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Custom50ford
and that would affect my cap which affect my earnings
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:47 PM
Again, if you have an example hotspot, I'd like to see if we can figure out why it's not beaconing. 🙂
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I understand what HIP42 is trying to do but by using a broken metric its like building a skyscraper on a foundation of sand.... not gonna end well
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DevilBear
and I dont fall into the category
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:48 PM
Exactly! You're not affected. You have a healthy hotspot. I'm not sure why you are complaining here. p2p issues are not something we can solve in this channel.
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DevilBear
My issue is that over a 60 day period the daily average of sent beacons is around 2. The helium networks desired target is published as 4. Im fine with some specific days being less than 4 or even greater than 4 as long as the long term average is close to the desired target of 4
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:49 PM
Honestly the p2p issues won't likely be solved until light hotspots in a few months.
16:49
(sometime Q1 we're told,)
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HIP42 is relying on a broken system (p2p issues) and therefore is broken
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DevilBear
I understand what HIP42 is trying to do but by using a broken metric its like building a skyscraper on a foundation of sand.... not gonna end well
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:50 PM
Yet even with the current issues, you're not losing anything under 42. That should be a good sign of how much buffer is there so that it does not affect healthy hotspots. 🙂 (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
brb
Custom50ford 01/17/2022 4:51 PM
I don't disagree at all. When I am sending beacons I am 150+ on the 5 day. My point is that there are p2p issues and my 5 day has dropped to zero before. Some others have indicated that their miners flatline after firmware updates. I suppose that it's possible a firmware update causes a glitch; but I still witness beacons and I run all Sensecap miners. So, I would think any FW issue would affect them all, which is why I have not made that connection (and one could argue that is an issue w/ my setup). At any rate, I think that the p2p stuff is supposed to get worked out before implementation of this HIP. So, perhaps my issue with randomly not sending beacons really isn't an issue. IDK
16:52
re:parasite
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Thats like saying the system works great because I set the speed limit at 65mph on a pot hole filled dirt road and you cant go 65mph (because you'll wreck due to the potholes) so setting a 65 mph speed limit is a success...
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Custom50ford
I don't disagree at all. When I am sending beacons I am 150+ on the 5 day. My point is that there are p2p issues and my 5 day has dropped to zero before. Some others have indicated that their miners flatline after firmware updates. I suppose that it's possible a firmware update causes a glitch; but I still witness beacons and I run all Sensecap miners. So, I would think any FW issue would affect them all, which is why I have not made that connection (and one could argue that is an issue w/ my setup). At any rate, I think that the p2p stuff is supposed to get worked out before implementation of this HIP. So, perhaps my issue with randomly not sending beacons really isn't an issue. IDK
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:52 PM
As I stated back at the beginning, this would not be active until the p2p issues are resolved. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
As I stated back at the beginning, this would not be active until the p2p issues are resolved. 🙂
Custom50ford 01/17/2022 4:53 PM
Well, I'll sit tight and see how it goes.
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DevilBear
Thats like saying the system works great because I set the speed limit at 65mph on a pot hole filled dirt road and you cant go 65mph (because you'll wreck due to the potholes) so setting a 65 mph speed limit is a success...
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:53 PM
The fact that there are p2p issues and you are not affected is proof that HIP42 is NOT broken.
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Wow you really dont get the whole doctrine of "fruit of the poison tree" do you?
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Custom50ford
Well, I'll sit tight and see how it goes.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:54 PM
Well I would still advise you to dig into why your beacons are so low. That's not normal, even with the current p2p system. 🙂
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DevilBear
Wow you really dont get the whole doctrine of "fruit of the poison tree" do you?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:54 PM
And you don't get cause and effect
16:55
and the fact that the p2p issues are compensated for.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Well I would still advise you to dig into why your beacons are so low. That's not normal, even with the current p2p system. 🙂
Custom50ford 01/17/2022 4:56 PM
I have been, and will continue to.
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Custom50ford 01/17/2022 4:58 PM
FWIW: when I don't beacon, any challenges I issue result in a failed beacon as well, and there is a lot of chatter about p2p which is why I keep going back to that. Maybe next time it happens I'll jump in and see if y'all can provide any additional insight
❤️ 1
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Custom50ford
FWIW: when I don't beacon, any challenges I issue result in a failed beacon as well, and there is a lot of chatter about p2p which is why I keep going back to that. Maybe next time it happens I'll jump in and see if y'all can provide any additional insight
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 5:00 PM
Many people would love to see that. Who knows... may be a new p2p issue. 😅
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Hi. Does anyone know if there is a tool or website that can test your antenna stregth? I swamped mine for an aftermarket and wat to see if it is working properly. Thanks!
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You have have straight up agreed with me that "poc_challenge_interval chain variable" is not working to the desired level (Helium network's published desire of 4) which means its broken. witness_limit_cap = witness_list * (blocks_per_day / POC_CHALLENGE_INTERVAL) / witness_list_bucket_size * compensation_factor cause = a variable in the equation is broken. effect the entire equation is broken. we then try to say we added in the variable of compensation factor to counteract the broken sent beacons.... "Since most hotspots are only receiving 50% of expected beacons we multiple the results by this factor."... So if poc-witness-scaling-by-name-hip-42 checker was correct itd show my limit as 360 not 160. Because the "compensation factor" should move the limit to the desired theoretical.
17:03
Now if you cant see how thats broken there is no helping you and you are blindly refusing to accept simple truth (edited)
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DCMikO
Hi. Does anyone know if there is a tool or website that can test your antenna stregth? I swamped mine for an aftermarket and wat to see if it is working properly. Thanks!
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 5:07 PM
Wrong channel. The folks over at #antennas can help you. 🙂
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DevilBear
You have have straight up agreed with me that "poc_challenge_interval chain variable" is not working to the desired level (Helium network's published desire of 4) which means its broken. witness_limit_cap = witness_list * (blocks_per_day / POC_CHALLENGE_INTERVAL) / witness_list_bucket_size * compensation_factor cause = a variable in the equation is broken. effect the entire equation is broken. we then try to say we added in the variable of compensation factor to counteract the broken sent beacons.... "Since most hotspots are only receiving 50% of expected beacons we multiple the results by this factor."... So if poc-witness-scaling-by-name-hip-42 checker was correct itd show my limit as 360 not 160. Because the "compensation factor" should move the limit to the desired theoretical.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 5:08 PM
The real number for an individual in a random system only approaches the average as the time sample size approaches infinity.
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DevilBear
You have have straight up agreed with me that "poc_challenge_interval chain variable" is not working to the desired level (Helium network's published desire of 4) which means its broken. witness_limit_cap = witness_list * (blocks_per_day / POC_CHALLENGE_INTERVAL) / witness_list_bucket_size * compensation_factor cause = a variable in the equation is broken. effect the entire equation is broken. we then try to say we added in the variable of compensation factor to counteract the broken sent beacons.... "Since most hotspots are only receiving 50% of expected beacons we multiple the results by this factor."... So if poc-witness-scaling-by-name-hip-42 checker was correct itd show my limit as 360 not 160. Because the "compensation factor" should move the limit to the desired theoretical.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 5:09 PM
The compensation is the reduction in the limit. It would not magically put you at 360.
17:10
You don't witness enough for it to matter. You are not affected. Period.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The compensation is the reduction in the limit. It would not magically put you at 360.
You are incorrect again "Which at the time of writing is 2. Hopefully as we can get the average beacon rates closer to the theoritical max the compensation factor will return to the default value of 1." Maybe you should read the proposal. The compensation factor is suppose to INCREASE the limit to compensate for the broken sent beacons.
facepalm 1
17:13
facepalm all you want... Thats a direct quote of the proposal
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DevilBear
You are incorrect again "Which at the time of writing is 2. Hopefully as we can get the average beacon rates closer to the theoritical max the compensation factor will return to the default value of 1." Maybe you should read the proposal. The compensation factor is suppose to INCREASE the limit to compensate for the broken sent beacons.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 5:14 PM
I'm done trying to explain to someone that won't bother listening. I have better things to do. Bye.
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Its obvious now that your ego wont let you be wrong when you clearly are.
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DevilBear
Its obvious now that your ego wont let you be wrong when you clearly are.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 5:15 PM
Says the person coming in here to complain about a system that doesn't even affect them. lol
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Dont bother responding you have already shown you dont understand how the variables in the equation for HIP42 work and you have showed you cant comprehend when the proposal spells it out for you (edited)
17:17
if you put out a product that integrally relies on another broken product then your product is broken as well
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DevilBear
Dont bother responding you have already shown you dont understand how the variables in the equation for HIP42 work and you have showed you cant comprehend when the proposal spells it out for you (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 5:18 PM
I was here from the beginning of the HIP. Go ahead and explain to me what I don't understand. lol
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LOL I already did
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17:20
your words "The compensation is the reduction in the limit" from the proposal "Which at the time of writing is 2. Hopefully as we can get the average beacon rates closer to the theoritical max the compensation factor will return to the default value of 1." which mathematically means the compensation factor is trying to to raise the limit not reduce it
17:21
"Which at the time of writing is 2" "Will be adjusted depending on the network state in regards to beacons. But the default value if the network is functioning as intended will be 1"
17:22
so go ahead explain in your own words how the compensation faction is a REDUCTION (as you asserted) in the limit
😴 1
17:23
are you can continue to stick you head in the sand and your fingers in your ears close your eyes and sing LA-LA-LA_LA like you have been doing for the past hour
17:25
HIP42 is based on a chain factor of the network that is NOT currently working as intended so that fact that its main component is broken the overall HIP42 is broken. The fact that it tries to massage the brokeness with another arbitrary variable does not fix the base assessment that its broken
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DevilBear
HIP42 is based on a chain factor of the network that is NOT currently working as intended so that fact that its main component is broken the overall HIP42 is broken. The fact that it tries to massage the brokeness with another arbitrary variable does not fix the base assessment that its broken
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 5:26 PM
HIP42 not broken, thus, take it elsewhere. This is the wrong channel for your complaint. #poc-discussion
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Way to dodge the challenge.... "so go ahead explain in your own words how the compensation faction is a REDUCTION (as you asserted) in the limit"
17:27
come on you said the compensation factor was a reduction to the limit. The proposal CLEARLY contradicts you
17:28
if you rely on a broken metric your product is broken
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DevilBear
come on you said the compensation factor was a reduction to the limit. The proposal CLEARLY contradicts you
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 5:29 PM
I'm here to help people, not entertain their pointless arguments. Go get your fix elsewhere. Persist in this harassment and there will be repercussions.
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and considering you have shown you fail to understand how the limit equation from the proposal even works your assessment of whether its broken is irrelevant.
17:30
Oh threaten me with censorship because you've been proved wrong... Way to show your ego
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 5:31 PM
@rawrmaan
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Prove that your comment "ElonTusk — Today at 6:09 PM The compensation is the reduction in the limit." is not 180 degress incorrect
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DevilBear
Prove that your comment "ElonTusk — Today at 6:09 PM The compensation is the reduction in the limit." is not 180 degress incorrect
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 5:36 PM
@DevilBear Stop this harassment. @~Devo~ @PaulM Could you step in please?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I'm here to help people, not entertain their pointless arguments. Go get your fix elsewhere. Persist in this harassment and there will be repercussions.
Your are not helping people by posting inaccurate and contradictory information
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@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped I don't see any harassment here. It seems to me like @DevilBear has a correct understanding of HIP 42
17:56
Compensation factor does indeed increase the witness limit
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rawrmaan
Compensation factor does indeed increase the witness limit
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 5:57 PM
It reduces the limiting of allowed witnessing events.
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Right, which is just another way of saying "increases the witness limit"
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rawrmaan
Right, which is just another way of saying "increases the witness limit"
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 5:59 PM
Yes, so I spoke correctly. And, when an action is requested to be stopped, and the person then continues, that is harassment.
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Seems to me like you didn't want to engage with @DevilBear's argument, which is fine. You can walk away at any time, you don't have to keep replying
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rawrmaan
Seems to me like you didn't want to engage with @DevilBear's argument, which is fine. You can walk away at any time, you don't have to keep replying
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 6:00 PM
That is victim blaming. It is not the responsibly of the attacked to stop the attack. (edited)
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Ok, well let me put it this way, they clearly didn't do anything bannable
18:01
Arguing != harassment
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rawrmaan
Arguing != harassment
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 6:02 PM
Agreed, and I wasn't asking for a ban. Persistent pinging and insults after being asked to stop is harassment.
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I don't see where they pinged you
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rawrmaan
I don't see where they pinged you
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 6:03 PM
There were quite a few.
18:05
Last one was just back at 5:36
18:05
(Pst)
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Fortunately Discord has search and I can see that there are no pings, just replies (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 6:06 PM
Replies are pings
18:07
As per the helium team
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Yeah but that means you were continuing to entertain the conversation. It's not like they were spam pinging you
18:07
This is Discord, you gotta learn to let things go
18:07
@DevilBear try to not get so personal next time, too
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rawrmaan
Yeah but that means you were continuing to entertain the conversation. It's not like they were spam pinging you
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 6:08 PM
They persisted after I asked them not to and told them that the conversation was over (edited)
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Ok, this is Discord, not preschool. You can block them and move on
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 6:08 PM
And I didn't reply anymore
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This is not a good use of mods' time
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wow and now you argue with a moderator when they tell you that you are wrong....
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@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped IMO you committed the greater offense by tagging a bunch of mods when a convo wasn't going how you liked. That actually is bannable if you abuse it. So pick your battles
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rawrmaan
This is not a good use of mods' time
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 6:09 PM
I have to disagree. Stopping abusive behavior before it gets out of hand is exactly a mods job
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If someone's bothering you, block and move on
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rawrmaan
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped IMO you committed the greater offense by tagging a bunch of mods when a convo wasn't going how you liked. That actually is bannable if you abuse it. So pick your battles
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 6:10 PM
I tagged others when it seemed you were afk
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Shouldn't have tagged any of us tbh
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rawrmaan
Shouldn't have tagged any of us tbh
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 6:10 PM
If we can't call for a mod when needed, what's the point of mods? (edited)
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We have a lot of jobs, but it's not to be your personal army when someone is destroying you in an argument and you can't handle it anymore. The amount of entitlement you displayed by threatening reprecussions is high
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rawrmaan
We have a lot of jobs, but it's not to be your personal army when someone is destroying you in an argument and you can't handle it anymore. The amount of entitlement you displayed by threatening reprecussions is high
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 6:14 PM
You're not an army. You're people that care about the board and keeping it civil here. I'll make sure not to ask for your assistance again.
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I had to block Elon Tusk when he accused me of being a cheater or gamer because I brought up counter arguments to HIP42.
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😆 dude he's trying to keep it civil you're arguing that you should be allowed to pick a fight and then cry about it and not just block a dude
18:35
🤦‍♂️
18:36
block the guy and move on
18:37
I've blocked and been blocked before and no one had to call any mods in
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HeliumHub (spencer) 01/17/2022 6:37 PM
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That being said, HIP42 is da bomb 😎
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Pratt
I had to block Elon Tusk when he accused me of being a cheater or gamer because I brought up counter arguments to HIP42.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 6:40 PM
I never said you were either. 🤨 Unless I guess someone posted a cheater hotspot that was yours and I said it was clearly cheating? I suppose that's possible.
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joecoin
😆 dude he's trying to keep it civil you're arguing that you should be allowed to pick a fight and then cry about it and not just block a dude
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 6:41 PM
Not sure what you mean. I blocked them a while back. 🤷‍♂️
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Custom50ford 01/17/2022 6:48 PM
Since the cap on beacons witnessed is derived from beacons sent, how does this HIP account for folks who have figured out how to send ridiculous amounts of beacons? https://etl.dewi.org/dashboard/7-hotspot-details?hotspot_address=112bmLBwJRHH4bJUFp3C3RhaFaYu5Pp8T2ksyVKhyPfh74Jm2uBJ&days=120 (edited)
18:49
if network average is 2 how is this sucker sending out 10+ daily (edited)
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Custom50ford
if network average is 2 how is this sucker sending out 10+ daily (edited)
💯 1
18:52
TLDR; a disproportionate amount of offline hotspots in a res4/5 hex can lead to an online hotspot in those hexes getting challenged more than normal.
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My problem is that it seems the amount of beacons you send out is out of your immediate control
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Pratt
My problem is that it seems the amount of beacons you send out is out of your immediate control
This guy gets it.
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Same to you mate!
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and Helium has fully admitted the variable that control the "random" assigning if a hotspot sends a beacon is not getting the desired target of roughly 4 per day
18:56
The HIP42 proposal even states that its not working as desired
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Custom50ford
Since the cap on beacons witnessed is derived from beacons sent, how does this HIP account for folks who have figured out how to send ridiculous amounts of beacons? https://etl.dewi.org/dashboard/7-hotspot-details?hotspot_address=112bmLBwJRHH4bJUFp3C3RhaFaYu5Pp8T2ksyVKhyPfh74Jm2uBJ&days=120 (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 7:03 PM
That bug is being worked on as we speak by Hashc0de and folks. 🙂
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Pratt
My problem is that it seems the amount of beacons you send out is out of your immediate control
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 7:05 PM
True, by design to limit the ability to game it. But over time the average still ends up about right, which is what the HIP looks at (well, technically witnesses, not beacons)
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where is the calculator for determining if this will affect a hotspot? there are a couple in my region with very high 7D Avg Beacons and pretty high Total Witnesses
20:34
one is at 660 Beacons with 131 Witnesses, the other is at 408 Beacons with 67 Witnesses (edited)
20:38
this is the one everyone is jealous of though: https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11F6KfddYzUgBYEviiqTGdXtuisXnrxpMpGcbzsn6X53DDjqu8N 2,294 Beacons, 172 Witnesses
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BluReptaR
this is the one everyone is jealous of though: https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11F6KfddYzUgBYEviiqTGdXtuisXnrxpMpGcbzsn6X53DDjqu8N 2,294 Beacons, 172 Witnesses
Appears that its been kicked offline
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ooo poor guy, that's a lot of HNT to be missin out on
20:46
they got a couple like that. up in the hills with a panel antenna i think overlooking all the suburbs.
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BluReptaR
where is the calculator for determining if this will affect a hotspot? there are a couple in my region with very high 7D Avg Beacons and pretty high Total Witnesses
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 11:50 PM
In the pins
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BluReptaR
ooo poor guy, that's a lot of HNT to be missin out on
allrounder55 01/18/2022 5:44 AM
im presuming the panel antenna is directional ? Thus limiting the coverage area which helium dont want
05:45
The whole point of the Helium network to succeed is to provide a good coverage
05:46
Hence they will either reduce reward earnings or blacklist certain hotspots who arent providing a good enough area of coverage which is understandable (edited)
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allrounder55
The whole point of the Helium network to succeed is to provide a good coverage
Why can't a panel give good coverage?
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allrounder55 01/18/2022 5:49 AM
it can if its omni directional
05:49
if its directional the range is limited
05:50
basically targetting a certain area to earn as much HNt as possible
05:50
which is against helium policy
05:51
Yagi antenna are a prime example i read helium are trying to ban that type of antenna
05:51
maybe its added into there algorithm already i dont know
05:52
its all about proof of coverage thats the whole aim of the network
05:55
i just checked that guys range his main area is not even 45 degrees
05:56
thats where most of his beacons have done (edited)
05:57
the majority of hotspots are to the east of him so thats why hes used a directional (edited)
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helium mining officially dead 🤣 🤣
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allrounder55
The whole point of the Helium network to succeed is to provide a good coverage
Also please define to me what "good coverage" is...
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allrounder55 01/18/2022 7:12 AM
good coverage as much as your line of sight will allow
07:12
to other hotspots
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Both beacons and witnesses?
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allrounder55 01/18/2022 7:13 AM
if possible yes
07:13
my line of sight is terrible to the west of me because of hills
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I'd agree with you, I don't think directional antennas necessarily means bad coverage. But if you install one and you witness more then beacon based on the ratio I suggested. How do we know, it's good coverage?
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allrounder55 01/18/2022 7:14 AM
but i witness and beacon from the north of me to sse
07:14
its down to the aglorithm
07:14
and there new pocv11 rules
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I think a ton of people relate "good coverage" to rewards which in fact is a proxy but can be heavily balanced one way or another.. usually witnesses because it rewards more
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allrounder55 01/18/2022 7:14 AM
which i dont know eonugh about
07:15
good coverage for me is to cover as much are as possible
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PoCv11 really only allowed people to install custom antenna gains. It also put regions so that a 915 miner can't be used in Europe for example.. now EIRP is another big thing but a lot of people don't look at Spreading Factor (edited)
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allrounder55 01/18/2022 7:15 AM
which i think is what helium want
07:16
yes its using regional specific parameters now
07:16
your exactly right the spreading factor is key now i think
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Are you concerned you're going to be labeled as providing "bad coverage"? (edited)
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allrounder55 01/18/2022 7:17 AM
no as i cant do anything about my location
07:17
i cant move hills o
07:17
and i dont have many local hotspots to me
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Ah, maybe I misinterpreted your earlier messages. I was trying to help if you were concerned or thought HIP-42 was going to affect you (edited)
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allrounder55 01/18/2022 7:18 AM
there is a few questions regarding hip 42 id like to ask
07:19
these gamers or spoofers have helium not implemented some way of tracing the exact location
07:19
via antenna or ip address
07:19
can it be done
07:19
with gps
07:19
for antenna
07:20
i know some use a vpn
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There's already IP anti-gaming in place. Triangulation is a little harder with the hardware that's being used. GPS was used a long time ago but it lead to more problems then good due to the inaccuracies and the fact most people installs the hotspot inside their house.
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allrounder55 01/18/2022 7:21 AM
it must be a nightmare
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However, this HIP is specifically targeting witness repeating some call it witness stuffing or supplementary witnessing (edited)
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allrounder55 01/18/2022 7:21 AM
i see
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I'd agree though that location spoofing is important to protect against but is super difficult with network limitations and trustless blockchain nature of helium
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allrounder55 01/18/2022 7:23 AM
thanks for the info @Anthonyra i hope helium manages to implement more security to target gamers spoofers as its unfair for the genuine owners of hotspots
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allrounder55
thanks for the info @Anthonyra i hope helium manages to implement more security to target gamers spoofers as its unfair for the genuine owners of hotspots
They are always working towards it. I know it's hard to imagine right now but it was significantly worse even just a year ago let alone when mainnet launched
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allrounder55 01/18/2022 7:25 AM
its improving all the time which is good
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allrounder55 01/18/2022 7:54 AM
ive just been watching a youtube video regarding this new hip42 proposal, the guy didi say it could affect legitmate hotspots that have a high witness to beacon ratio, due to them having a high elevation, i know the proposal is to combat gaming mainly. But would these legitmate high witnessing hotpsots would be affected to if it was voted for and went ahead? (edited)
07:55
Would the amount of witnessing for them be reduced ?
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allrounder55
ive just been watching a youtube video regarding this new hip42 proposal, the guy didi say it could affect legitmate hotspots that have a high witness to beacon ratio, due to them having a high elevation, i know the proposal is to combat gaming mainly. But would these legitmate high witnessing hotpsots would be affected to if it was voted for and went ahead? (edited)
Most people install their setup that way. If you placed a stock hotspot on a tower it'd do really good and maintain the expected beacon/witness ratio. When you highly customize your build to be able to hear witnesses better you tend to lose out on beacons and most don't care because the rewards don't make the effort or time of fixing it worth it. (edited)
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allrounder55 01/18/2022 8:05 AM
whats the expected beacon/witness ratio? (edited)
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allrounder55
whats the expected beacon/witness ratio? (edited)
Expected might not be the best term.. but after reviewing the network 96.7% of all hotspots are able to meet the HIP-42 suggested ratio. For every unique witness of a beacon you hear 8 other hotspot beacons.. 1:8 (edited)
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allrounder55 01/18/2022 8:08 AM
ok im around that myself 8
08:08
thats good
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@Anthonyra can you explain this "When you highly customize your build to be able to hear witnesses better you tend to lose out on beacons" and are you referring to the "beacons" tab as presented in the explorer UI or are you referring to sent beacons?
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DevilBear
@Anthonyra can you explain this "When you highly customize your build to be able to hear witnesses better you tend to lose out on beacons" and are you referring to the "beacons" tab as presented in the explorer UI or are you referring to sent beacons?
Get witnesses on the beacons you send. You also can see this due to the ISP they choose for those setups. If they can't be contacted by the network they won't beacon
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As the Temperature Vote has passed, I'm starting to think about how the implementation of this HIP will work. I believe that the final implementation will be different than what was proposed but not in regards to its final goal. For example, I believe that it would be a great idea to add a new metric to beacons. You have the metadata for a beacon and the associated randomized witness list capped at 18. I think knowing the total count before being randomized and capped will be important for operators and add an extra layer of buffer... curious on thoughts
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Carl-bot BOT 01/18/2022 9:39 AM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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Anthonyra
As the Temperature Vote has passed, I'm starting to think about how the implementation of this HIP will work. I believe that the final implementation will be different than what was proposed but not in regards to its final goal. For example, I believe that it would be a great idea to add a new metric to beacons. You have the metadata for a beacon and the associated randomized witness list capped at 18. I think knowing the total count before being randomized and capped will be important for operators and add an extra layer of buffer... curious on thoughts
My thoughts right now as proposed hip42 is broken. The basis of its calculation is sent beacons which the desired amount is 4 per day. However and the proposal even mentions this a lot of hot spots are not sending out 4 beacons per day. Its closer to 2 per day. A 60 day check on my own hot spot confirms this. Over a 60 day period I average right around 2 beacons per day.
09:44
So to fix something that not working correctly hip42 proposes adding in a compensation factor that would counteract that.
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DevilBear
My thoughts right now as proposed hip42 is broken. The basis of its calculation is sent beacons which the desired amount is 4 per day. However and the proposal even mentions this a lot of hot spots are not sending out 4 beacons per day. Its closer to 2 per day. A 60 day check on my own hot spot confirms this. Over a 60 day period I average right around 2 beacons per day.
Hence, the compensation factor. The goal of HIP-42 is to define the ratio between beacons and witnesses.
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However thats like putting paint on mud and calling it good
09:44
The beaconing issue should be fixed
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The fix for these issues is being worked on as we speak. I'm not Helium and I'll be developing this HIP-42 in parallel with the beacon fix (edited)
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not try implementing a work around
09:46
Now if your goal to to limit every hotspot to not more than 360 witnesses per 24 hours theres a lot simpler ways to implement that
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DevilBear
not try implementing a work around
Light Hotspots is the fix you're referring too and it's on Milestone 3. Once Milestone 4 is completed the issue you addressed will be a thing of the past.
09:47
I want the limit to be based on performance, not all setups are created equal. Sure we could simply introduce a cap to cut everyone off at a certain point. Also if you have an easier means for Helium I'm all ears
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I get what hip42 is trying to fix but the mechanism in the proposal is flawed from the very start because it relies on a currently flawed metric
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DevilBear
I get what hip42 is trying to fix but the mechanism in the proposal is flawed from the very start because it relies on a currently flawed metric
Enlighten me on a better approach 🙂
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if you notice their a sliding scale for rewards for beacons and and inverse (to the sent beacons scale ) for witnesses
09:50
Id have to get the exact wording out of the two hips so I dont mispeak
09:50
or do you know what Im speaking of?
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Are you talking about HIP 15/17
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Yes those two
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Yes, but that's simply per event. It doesn't prevent a hotspot from submitting 2000 witness receipts per day
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but those 2000 witness are only occur in a over saturated area and the rewards scale is going to be completely subpar
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Not if the hotspot is gaming
09:53
Ideally, I'm looking at how to determine what an upper cap should be for witness rewards
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then we get into how exactly is a hot spot gaming....
09:54
for example somebody called out this guy has got to be gaming... https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112Ztp8NE5ddr3kW2a3CcJsXnMmHLGH53VgpBWNcorprrLW5t3vS
09:55
he's 29m high (if completely accurate) and in a very flat area... Hes going to receive a ton witnesses because of the height and if he has a high DBi antena hes going to get a lot less people seeing his beacons
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It's hard when poor setups can look identical to gaming ones and vice versa
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He setup isnt poor
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He's currently relayed, and has only beaconed once in 5 days. But with those rewards do you think they're motivated to fix what's causing those setup issues?
09:57
He need's to beacon and witness. Blockchain isn't biased. It either shows that they are beaconing or not. There's a reason it's not beaconing, and when I see relayed with the current network status it's probably the culprit due to the gossip times of listen addresses.
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okay so "when I see relayed with the current network status it's probably the culprit due to the gossip times of listen addresses" its entirely possible he's not beaconing because of poor performance of the helium network paired with being relayed
10:01
So boiled down your issue is that he's being relayed
10:02
if relaying is such an issue then remove it as an option to connect to the helium network
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But you can fix relayed if you really really wanted too just not incentivized right now
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ideally yes... pragmatically possiblely no
10:04
but why does "relayed" stop a hotspot from beaconing more often?
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DevilBear
but why does "relayed" stop a hotspot from beaconing more often?
How does a hotspot get targeted to beacon in the first place?
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Anthonyra
How does a hotspot get targeted to beacon in the first place?
There in lies the issue
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Well, this is getting on a tangent. The HIP was passed via temperature vote. If you have a suggestion on implementation to achieve the same end goal I'm all ears
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relayed is connected. so unless we arent seeing a whole bunch of invalid sent beacons a relayed hotspot should beacon just as often as a non relayed
10:06
See I dont see it as a tangent to HIP42 is reliant on how many beacons you send out (edited)
10:06
The helium network and not the hotspot determines when a hotspot sends a beacon
10:07
and then you want to punish someone like magic sepia camel because the helium network is not telling the hot spot to beacon (edited)
10:08
and yes im giving this hotspot the benefit of the doubt that until its proven conclusively that they are gaming the system
10:10
If you want to base HIP42 on sent beacons then you need to ensure every hotspot is hitting the average of 4 beacons a day over say a 60 day period
10:13
you could achieve this with two counters in the hotspot firmware. 1 - when to send a beacon. Randomly generate a time between 1 minute and 5 hours and 59 minutes. 2- reset the first counter. This counter counts down from 6 hours. When it hits zero it triggers a refresh of counter 1. You now have a randomized across all hotspots an average of 4 sent beacons a day
10:14
oh but people will get into the firmware and changes those counters... Well all updates are OTA. MD5 checksum the OTA firmware bundle and compare it randomly 2x a day to the md5 checksum of the firmware in the hotspot. If they dont match somebody has been modifying their firmware...
10:15
Oh I forgot to add in counter 2 get started upon the first value assignment to counter 1
10:18
Now on top of the above you can add third counter that counts how many times the hotspot has been part of the 18 witnesses on a receipt.
10:19
Its my understanding that theres actually 25 hotspots on a witness receipt and 7 are randomly dropped
10:19
as part of the dropping process you can add in a check of third counter. If that counter > than a set limit then the hotspot automatically becomes one of the 7 dropped
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DevilBear
you could achieve this with two counters in the hotspot firmware. 1 - when to send a beacon. Randomly generate a time between 1 minute and 5 hours and 59 minutes. 2- reset the first counter. This counter counts down from 6 hours. When it hits zero it triggers a refresh of counter 1. You now have a randomized across all hotspots an average of 4 sent beacons a day
This counter already exists and is based on the poc_challenge_interval the beaconer doesn't have control over requesting a beacon because of what you said with custom firmware. Also, if you know the MD5 checksum you could simply send that to the checksum service. It's open sourced so you could easily figure out the required MD5 checksum needed (edited)
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Anthonyra
This counter already exists and is based on the poc_challenge_interval the beaconer doesn't have control over requesting a beacon because of what you said with custom firmware. Also, if you know the MD5 checksum you could simply send that to the checksum service. It's open sourced so you could easily figure out the required MD5 checksum needed (edited)
poc_challenge_interval is obviously broken
10:21
because completely legitimate hotspots are only averaging 2 sent beacons a day (edited)
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Sure, and fix for it is still being worked on
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DevilBear
Now on top of the above you can add third counter that counts how many times the hotspot has been part of the 18 witnesses on a receipt.
This essentially describes HIP-42 intentions. Just that I don't want to have a set cap across the network. I want it to be performance based
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and you cant just send a value to a service. The service has to request it and being expecting it.... There are ways to track and make sure you are getting a response when requested and not getting a man in the middle attack
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Anthonyra
This essentially describes HIP-42 intentions. Just that I don't want to have a set cap across the network. I want it to be performance based
There is lies the issue. The performance metric being used is id say 85% out the und users control
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DevilBear
There is lies the issue. The performance metric being used is id say 85% out the und users control
However 97% of the network meets this metric
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so you are saying 97% of the hotspots are averaging 4 sent beacons a day?
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DevilBear
so you are saying 97% of the hotspots are averaging 4 sent beacons a day?
Nope, aren't being affected by that proposed by HIP-42
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does your being affected or not tool use the compensation factor?
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I shouldn't have ever tried to explain that the network could cap you at 4 beacons. Because everyone reads that as the network should make my hotspot beacon 4 times a day... It's a max not a minimum.
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because if your hotspot is legit and not averaging 4 sent beacons a day then you are being affected
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The 4 beacons a day is a max.. not a minimum
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4 times a day is not a max
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Yes, I can show you in the source code
10:27
There is no minimum beacons per day
10:27
There's a max and average
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I can show where it does 5 in day
10:27
on a completely legit hotspot
10:28
so there is not a cap of 4 in a day
10:28
4 per day is the desired amount
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There's a bug that allows it go above 4, also it's based on an IP filter that needs to be updated via gossip
10:28
4 is the desired amount to create challenges
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so why are legit hotspots not being relayed have an average of near 2?
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Anthonyra
I shouldn't have ever tried to explain that the network could cap you at 4 beacons. Because everyone reads that as the network should make my hotspot beacon 4 times a day... It's a max not a minimum.
I dont know about other people but I read the docs and read it as the helium network tries to have a hotspot send 4 beacons a day. Its currently failing
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DevilBear
I dont know about other people but I read the docs and read it as the helium network tries to have a hotspot send 4 beacons a day. Its currently failing
joaofbbarreira 01/18/2022 11:33 AM
yep its failing as hell...mine send 1 beac today... last time he sent a beacon was 3 days ago....hip42 got me bad... daily average of 0.5.0.6 to something like 0.15 .018
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joaofbbarreira
yep its failing as hell...mine send 1 beac today... last time he sent a beacon was 3 days ago....hip42 got me bad... daily average of 0.5.0.6 to something like 0.15 .018
HIP42 isnt implemented yet... But it is based off that sent beacons which is broken (edited)
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Seems more like HIP42 is about spreading the love versus stopping gaming. It seems the more something can witness the more data you have to tell if its legit or not. Those are the ones who get hurt the most. (edited)
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SaintOlav
Seems more like HIP42 is about spreading the love versus stopping gaming. It seems the more something can witness the more data you have to tell if its legit or not. Those are the ones who get hurt the most. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 12:40 PM
It's about a healthy witnesses vs witnessing ratio for the network. Cracking down on the "witness stuffing" exploit is a nice additional side benefit. 🙂
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"witness stuffing" sounds vague.. like it includes people on towers and good elevations.
12:47
i get confused by all the different terms people use.
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SaintOlav
"witness stuffing" sounds vague.. like it includes people on towers and good elevations.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 12:55 PM
Nah, it's a specific exploit. They copy witnessing events, edit the data, then have all their hotspots report that they also witnessed a beacon when they really didn't, thus "stuffing" the witness list and increasing their chance of being one of the 18 that gets paid. Old exploit. 🙂
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Carl-bot BOT 01/18/2022 12:55 PM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 12:56 PM
Common side effect of this exploit is a 0 or very low wits list and a very high amount of witnessing events.
12:58
Sometimes they set their height very high and assert on a location that has towers or such to try to hide. 😉
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It's about a healthy witnesses vs witnessing ratio for the network. Cracking down on the "witness stuffing" exploit is a nice additional side benefit. 🙂
Healthy seems like a bit of a misleading term. Even if beaconing perfectly this hip will clip top earning hotspots that have tremendous views of cities (which therefore see lots of witnesses because they can see entire cities). By definition those rewards will be reallocated to others with less optimal setups (defined as those who can not see as many other hotspots). If you are not beaconing perfectly because you live on a campus and share an IP with 30,000 people, or are just a normal person who might have a two or three hotspots on the same IP because you want to have antennas pointed out opposite sides of your house, you are about to get crushed because sharing an IP means you are sharing beacons. If helium is trying to impact some kind of gaming with this hip you have the deny list for that. With due respect to those trying to make this network better (I don’t question your underlying spirit just your conclusions) this is a terrible hip that will impact many of the most enthusiastic people who have invested the most heavily to grow the network to what it is now.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Nah, it's a specific exploit. They copy witnessing events, edit the data, then have all their hotspots report that they also witnessed a beacon when they really didn't, thus "stuffing" the witness list and increasing their chance of being one of the 18 that gets paid. Old exploit. 🙂
In order to do witness stuffing you need a man in the middle attack, which capcom has said leaves a 100% obvious signature in which case add them to the ban list. Please don’t clip earnings of the top earners to get at that issue. There is already a tool to stop witness stuffing. (edited)
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donp
In order to do witness stuffing you need a man in the middle attack, which capcom has said leaves a 100% obvious signature in which case add them to the ban list. Please don’t clip earnings of the top earners to get at that issue. There is already a tool to stop witness stuffing. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 1:26 PM
97% pass this HIP with no impact. Hardly "everyone" 😉
13:28
As for the shared IP issue, aren't you running into HIP 15/17 anyway? And couldn't you just VPN? Shared IP is going to be more and more an issue anyway with the world running out of IPv4 addresses.
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donp
Healthy seems like a bit of a misleading term. Even if beaconing perfectly this hip will clip top earning hotspots that have tremendous views of cities (which therefore see lots of witnesses because they can see entire cities). By definition those rewards will be reallocated to others with less optimal setups (defined as those who can not see as many other hotspots). If you are not beaconing perfectly because you live on a campus and share an IP with 30,000 people, or are just a normal person who might have a two or three hotspots on the same IP because you want to have antennas pointed out opposite sides of your house, you are about to get crushed because sharing an IP means you are sharing beacons. If helium is trying to impact some kind of gaming with this hip you have the deny list for that. With due respect to those trying to make this network better (I don’t question your underlying spirit just your conclusions) this is a terrible hip that will impact many of the most enthusiastic people who have invested the most heavily to grow the network to what it is now.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 1:29 PM
The network requires things to go both ways, so yes, healthy hotspots need to do both.
13:38
I would suggest checking the tool to see if you would be actually affected. https://etl.dewi.org/question/461-poc-witness-scaling-hip-42 (edited)
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Yes thank you I have checked the tool. The hotspots I am talking about are capable of beaconing except their beacon rate has been artificially capped since it shares an IP. Okay fine I realize that was put in place to stop Modesto, but now this hip comes along and will cap witnesses too. If I use a vpn to get around that, as you suggest, it only increases costs and complexity to deal with an artificial beacon cap and now there is risk I end up on someone’s deny list one day, potentially taking my entire investment to zero. Or take the example of a mountainside location. It beacons the usual 2.5 ish times per day but because it has such a great line of site to an entire metroplex, it’s witness receipt count is regularly above the limit. Even though the whole point of LoraWan is to provide coverage over long distances, this hip doesn’t want you to see too much, otherwise you are going to be capped.
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donp
Yes thank you I have checked the tool. The hotspots I am talking about are capable of beaconing except their beacon rate has been artificially capped since it shares an IP. Okay fine I realize that was put in place to stop Modesto, but now this hip comes along and will cap witnesses too. If I use a vpn to get around that, as you suggest, it only increases costs and complexity to deal with an artificial beacon cap and now there is risk I end up on someone’s deny list one day, potentially taking my entire investment to zero. Or take the example of a mountainside location. It beacons the usual 2.5 ish times per day but because it has such a great line of site to an entire metroplex, it’s witness receipt count is regularly above the limit. Even though the whole point of LoraWan is to provide coverage over long distances, this hip doesn’t want you to see too much, otherwise you are going to be capped.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 2:11 PM
Thankfully they (helium) have stated that VPN usage will not trigger any denylist stuff 🙂
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donp
Yes thank you I have checked the tool. The hotspots I am talking about are capable of beaconing except their beacon rate has been artificially capped since it shares an IP. Okay fine I realize that was put in place to stop Modesto, but now this hip comes along and will cap witnesses too. If I use a vpn to get around that, as you suggest, it only increases costs and complexity to deal with an artificial beacon cap and now there is risk I end up on someone’s deny list one day, potentially taking my entire investment to zero. Or take the example of a mountainside location. It beacons the usual 2.5 ish times per day but because it has such a great line of site to an entire metroplex, it’s witness receipt count is regularly above the limit. Even though the whole point of LoraWan is to provide coverage over long distances, this hip doesn’t want you to see too much, otherwise you are going to be capped.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 2:12 PM
Even though the whole point of LoraWan is to provide coverage over long distances
Not according to what the devs have said. 🤷‍♂️
14:13
And again, if the hotspot is just witnessing a ton, that's not actually useful to the network. It has to go both ways. (edited)
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donp
Yes thank you I have checked the tool. The hotspots I am talking about are capable of beaconing except their beacon rate has been artificially capped since it shares an IP. Okay fine I realize that was put in place to stop Modesto, but now this hip comes along and will cap witnesses too. If I use a vpn to get around that, as you suggest, it only increases costs and complexity to deal with an artificial beacon cap and now there is risk I end up on someone’s deny list one day, potentially taking my entire investment to zero. Or take the example of a mountainside location. It beacons the usual 2.5 ish times per day but because it has such a great line of site to an entire metroplex, it’s witness receipt count is regularly above the limit. Even though the whole point of LoraWan is to provide coverage over long distances, this hip doesn’t want you to see too much, otherwise you are going to be capped.
As I have complained before, being on the mountain top and hearing all of the hotspots below is not ideal. There is no chance your hotspot is going to hear the dog collar below first. No way you are going to hear my garden sensor first. Odds are slim you are going to be first in any sort of location tracking either. Your mountain top hotspot will earn nearly zero once PoC runs out; thus, not an ideal set up. Useful, but not ideal. It will be useful for covering the huge swaths of area far away from the city. But your data traffic is going to be miniscule. This HIP is trying to get hotspots owners to align their installs with this fact.
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15:13
Is it true that PoC rewards you right now for hearing all of the hotspots below? Yes. That's the unfortunate part of how PoC is done. [mind you, I think this project is brilliant] But really the ideal set up is to cover an area, not covered by anyone else except for some redundancy, so that future sensors will be heard and to be communicated back (up links and down links).
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15:15
All witnessing and no beaconing is not ideal. Temporarily beneficial for earning? Unfortunately yes. This HIP is trying to fix that. (edited)
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I agree all witnessing and no beaconing is not ideal. But we aren’t talking about no beaconing. We are talking about applying a ratio based how many hotspots hear your beacon, in the context of many people having their beacons capped or beacons just not getting to them due to network issues, and even if you beacon perfectly if you have a great site you will be clipped. As will many others who don’t beacon as often. I also agree the ideal setup is to cover an area and provide some redundancy. But towers / hilltops / mountain sides / high rise locations provide tremendous coverage areas where others do not see, and also redundancy to entire cities and every city has its holes with less than ideal coverage. Reducing the rewards of those units ensures fewer of those locations will be deployed (or will remain deployed) because they are expensive to lease and hard work to get to. So now you have increased the number of units required to cover the globe and increased environmental impacts. I don’t mean to sound like a broken record but I just think it’s important for everyone to understand the impacts of this HIP. For some people this is as simple as “will this impact my earnings?” For others it’s about more than that. I am hopeful the big investors that ultimately control the vote will consider this perspective.
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KeithR
As I have complained before, being on the mountain top and hearing all of the hotspots below is not ideal. There is no chance your hotspot is going to hear the dog collar below first. No way you are going to hear my garden sensor first. Odds are slim you are going to be first in any sort of location tracking either. Your mountain top hotspot will earn nearly zero once PoC runs out; thus, not an ideal set up. Useful, but not ideal. It will be useful for covering the huge swaths of area far away from the city. But your data traffic is going to be miniscule. This HIP is trying to get hotspots owners to align their installs with this fact.
go to https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112Ztp8NE5ddr3kW2a3CcJsXnMmHLGH53VgpBWNcorprrLW5t3vS/activity this is a hotspot people without evidence are accusing of cheating somehow because it only has 18 witness... Look at the data tab. Its transmitting data for the network as well.
16:49
or look at this one https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11kJkkRx9oKhR4iFzZXTq8eYznL2CYM795NTEcutvbPdYuZiXaT/activity the guy is literally on a 7200 peak and is actively transmitting data
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I am on my phone so limited in my tolerance…scrolled back 20 hours and not a single beacon. Something seems up. Not particularly helpful. So yes, I see why this would be on a sus list.
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which one
16:55
and its being worked on that the beacon interval is not working properly so you automatically assume theres something suspect about the setup and it couldnt be that just maybe hes a severe victim of the broken beacon interval? If you are referring to the first link (edited)
16:59
in the last 60 days I have had 3 days with no beacons. Ive had 14 days with only 1 beacon sent, I have also had 3 days where 5 beacons were sent. but to have 17 out of 60 days have 1 or less sent beacons... Thats not my hotspot thats the helium network failing. (edited)
17:00
So automatically saying something is sus based purely on the fact of a low sent beacon count is in and of itself sus
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 5:10 PM
Magic Sepia Camel (Netherlands) is very likely using the"witness stuffing" exploit. Best Canvas Zebra (Colorado) is an amazing hotspot (in the mountains) and not affected by HIP42.
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weird the guy that says he has me blocked because I called him out on his inaccurate misinformation and who tried to argue with the moderator and the moderator actually threated him with banning is replying to my posts. Hmm could he be lying that he actually blocked me?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Magic Sepia Camel (Netherlands) is very likely using the"witness stuffing" exploit. Best Canvas Zebra (Colorado) is an amazing hotspot (in the mountains) and not affected by HIP42.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 5:17 PM
Also looks like Magic Sepia Camel was on the old denylist. (Confirmed. They were on the list) (edited)
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The only difference between the two is that magic sepia camel is having really really low sent beacons... The topography of the area supports that he could have LOTs of witness because he's about 60km off from a hug cluster across an open bay. extremely FLAT.
17:19
Oh you mean the deny list feature that was getting so many false positives they pulled it back?
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DevilBear
weird the guy that says he has me blocked because I called him out on his inaccurate misinformation and who tried to argue with the moderator and the moderator actually threated him with banning is replying to my posts. Hmm could he be lying that he actually blocked me?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 5:20 PM
You can verify I blocked you by trying to react to my posts. You won't be able to.
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So explain how you are seeing my posts if you blocked me?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Also looks like Magic Sepia Camel was on the old denylist. (Confirmed. They were on the list) (edited)
Oh you mean like this
17:20
You fail again
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DevilBear
The only difference between the two is that magic sepia camel is having really really low sent beacons... The topography of the area supports that he could have LOTs of witness because he's about 60km off from a hug cluster across an open bay. extremely FLAT.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 5:20 PM
Even the best legit hotspots don't have ratios like that. They were on the list for a reason.
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Your opinion based on your behavior means zilch
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DevilBear
Oh you mean like this
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 5:21 PM
React... not reply.
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The mod even severely scolded you
17:23
LOL block a react is not blocking somebody....
17:24
see this here is how you block somebody... It shows "1 blocked message" everytime you post
17:24
You fail yet again.
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DevilBear
LOL block a react is not blocking somebody....
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 5:28 PM
I agree it's dumb, but that's how the block system works on discord. It still lets the blocked person see and reply to posts, but doesn't let them react. 🤷‍♂️
17:29
The person that blocked doesn't see the blocked person's posts, but they can still open the posts and read them.
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DevilBear
You fail yet again.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 5:29 PM
Not sure how you think that's a "fail". 🤷‍♂️
17:34
Soon as the new denylist is back up and running, Magic Sepia Camel will very likely will be put back on it for the same reasons as before. (edited)
17:36
It's too bad we can't see the range at which Best Canvas Zebra is seeing those data packets.
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Yeap "5 - blocked messages" thats how you block someone
17:40
Spew your misinformation and completely wrong assumptions into the nether... You are blocked
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matmanmining 01/18/2022 6:52 PM
@DevilBear what is your plan? Where is your HIP?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Even the best legit hotspots don't have ratios like that. They were on the list for a reason.
Not entirely true. With all the network issues we have currently its possible to not beacon at all. Or if hotspots share an ip address they will also not beacon as much even if the network was working properly. Either way, a legit hotspot could have very poor witness/beacon ratio. I still support this HIP personally but only if the network issues are solved first and appropriate limits are set.
19:30
I am curious the real reason Camel was on the list
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Parylizer
Not entirely true. With all the network issues we have currently its possible to not beacon at all. Or if hotspots share an ip address they will also not beacon as much even if the network was working properly. Either way, a legit hotspot could have very poor witness/beacon ratio. I still support this HIP personally but only if the network issues are solved first and appropriate limits are set.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 7:41 PM
That kind of ratio does not match the pattern of p2p network issues. 🙂
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Parylizer
I am curious the real reason Camel was on the list
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 7:42 PM
Well that list was targeting Chinese attenuator and witness stuffing farms. This shows the typical pattern of the latter.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
That kind of ratio does not match the pattern of p2p network issues. 🙂
I don't know what ratio you are referring to but having lots of receiving beacons and very few sent (witnesses) can definitely be related to network issues. Just spend some time in this discord and you'll hear it all the time "why am I not beaconing etc etc" I have a hotspot right now that hasn't sent a beacon in over a week. It's just a unit straight out of the box connected to an antenna on the roof, no modifications or anything and is not relayed.
19:46
You are correct that this can be a sign of gaming though too. Just not always with the state of the network right now.
19:46
Hopefully the network will get more reliable so it will be easier to weed out the real gamers
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Parylizer
I don't know what ratio you are referring to but having lots of receiving beacons and very few sent (witnesses) can definitely be related to network issues. Just spend some time in this discord and you'll hear it all the time "why am I not beaconing etc etc" I have a hotspot right now that hasn't sent a beacon in over a week. It's just a unit straight out of the box connected to an antenna on the roof, no modifications or anything and is not relayed.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 7:47 PM
The ratio of witnessing events to witnesses to your beacons. Hotspots that are not beaconing due to p2p issue don't have this kind of pattern (edited)
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Yes they do lol
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Parylizer
Yes they do lol
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 7:47 PM
have a good example?
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seriously.......two messages up
19:48
No I won't post it for the hosts privacy
19:48
I hear about this exact scenario from others all the time
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Parylizer
seriously.......two messages up
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 7:50 PM
weird... I'm not seeing them.
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Parylizer
No I won't post it for the hosts privacy
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 7:51 PM
ahhh so they're not there, Gotcha
19:52
Hotspots with p2p issues don't have that level of activity. 🤷‍♂️
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You have to read, sorry no pictures. It could also be related to the randomness of units being challenged, so you'll sometimes see a unit go long periods with nothing then a bunch all at once. We could solve that by looking at average over long period though (edited)
19:53
explorer for example only looks at last 5 days, might be better to look at average of past month or something
19:53
For use in this HIP i mean
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Parylizer
You have to read, sorry no pictures. It could also be related to the randomness of units being challenged, so you'll sometimes see a unit go long periods with nothing then a bunch all at once. We could solve that by looking at average over long period though (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 7:54 PM
Without a hotspot name, I have no data to look at. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you?
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matmanmining
@DevilBear what is your plan? Where is your HIP?
scroll up... I outlined a very high level solution
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Without a hotspot name, I have no data to look at. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you?
Come on man, just read my messages. I described in detail what is happening with one of my hotspots.
19:55
You don't need the hotspot name to understand what I said
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Parylizer
Come on man, just read my messages. I described in detail what is happening with one of my hotspots.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 7:56 PM
Not really. How many witness events? How many witnesses? what's the 24 hour earnings?
19:56
I have no data
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DevilBear
scroll up... I outlined a very high level solution
can you link to it? im curious too
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 7:59 PM
Camel is over 1600 witnessing events, 18 witnesses (all in one day to try to fool people) and 10x the daily average earnings. That is not a hotspot with p2p issues.
20:01
And they've shut off their listening address. Classic exploit. https://app.heliumstatus.io/hotspots/112Ztp8NE5ddr3kW2a3CcJsXnMmHLGH53VgpBWNcorprrLW5t3vS
20:02
And the Machine Learning algorithm came to the same results which is why it ended up on the denylist.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Camel is over 1600 witnessing events, 18 witnesses (all in one day to try to fool people) and 10x the daily average earnings. That is not a hotspot with p2p issues.
you are forgetting that hotspots have no control over their beaconing. He could have 0 witnesses this week and 100's next week. If he was beaconing properly and had few witnesses I would agree with you but looking at that hotspot he hasn't beaconed at all except once to get those 18 witnesses. If he beaconed the amount you are supposed to (3 times a day) there's a high chance he would have tons of witnesses and fall right in line with your "ratio"
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Parylizer
can you link to it? im curious too
all I did was post out rudimentary idea that achieves the exact same thing as this hip... It was earlier today in this chat... no link
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
And they've shut off their listening address. Classic exploit. https://app.heliumstatus.io/hotspots/112Ztp8NE5ddr3kW2a3CcJsXnMmHLGH53VgpBWNcorprrLW5t3vS
you mean he is relayed......not sure how thats an exploit nor how it would benefit him. It does in fact exactly prove my point though, when you are relayed beaconing doesnt work properly which means no witnesses as we are seeing (edited)
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BTW Parylizer you are have a disagreement with a person that will absolutely refuse to admit they are wrong
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Parylizer
you are forgetting that hotspots have no control over their beaconing. He could have 0 witnesses this week and 100's next week. If he was beaconing properly and had few witnesses I would agree with you but looking at that hotspot he hasn't beaconed at all except once to get those 18 witnesses. If he beaconed the amount you are supposed to (3 times a day) there's a high chance he would have tons of witnesses and fall right in line with your "ratio"
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 8:04 PM
With a blocked listening address, they can't receive challenges to beacon.
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Parylizer
you mean he is relayed......not sure how thats an exploit nor how it would benefit him. It does in fact exactly prove my point though, when you are relayed beaconing doesnt work properly which means no witnesses as we are seeing (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 8:05 PM
relayed is different.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
With a blocked listening address, they can't receive challenges to beacon.
Eh thats a half truth. you can, just relayed through another unit which doesn't always work out (edited)
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then will call the mods on you that you are harassing them when you destroy their misinformation.... if you scroll way up in the chat you can see the mods threatening to ban the person.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 8:05 PM
relayed does not stop beaconing.
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matmanmining 01/18/2022 8:06 PM
yeah and there is a bully on the stage too
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
relayed is different.
nope that is exactly what relayed is. Your port is closed so the requests are "relayed" through another unit to your unit (edited)
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matmanmining
yeah and there is a bully on the stage too
in reference to?
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DevilBear
BTW Parylizer you are have a disagreement with a person that will absolutely refuse to admit they are wrong
yeah starting to think why am I even bothering with this 🤣
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Parylizer
yeah starting to think why am I even bothering with this 🤣
this is what he got yesterday "rawrmaan — Yesterday at 7:12 PM We have a lot of jobs, but it's not to be your personal army when someone is destroying you in an argument and you can't handle it anymore. The amount of entitlement you displayed by threatening reprecussions is high"
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DevilBear
this is what he got yesterday "rawrmaan — Yesterday at 7:12 PM We have a lot of jobs, but it's not to be your personal army when someone is destroying you in an argument and you can't handle it anymore. The amount of entitlement you displayed by threatening reprecussions is high"
You need to stop bringing this up. Move on.
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Parylizer
nope that is exactly what relayed is. Your port is closed so the requests are "relayed" through another unit to your unit (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 8:10 PM
20:13
Nobody said you can't beacon when relayed
20:13
I literally said the opposite, relayed allows you to beacon when you don't have port 44158 open
20:14
but its very unreliable so you will often see relayed hotspots struggle to beacon.
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20:14
Let me clarify that
20:14
often doesn't mean never
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Parylizer
but its very unreliable so you will often see relayed hotspots struggle to beacon.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 8:14 PM
For sure, it does screw with beaconing.
20:15
A relayed hotspot still has a listening address. The exploit does not. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
A relayed hotspot still has a listening address. The exploit does not. 🙂
yes but It will have a p2p listen address not an IP address. Just like camel does.
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Parylizer
yes but It will have a p2p listen address not an IP address. Just like camel does.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 8:19 PM
Interesting... the address is back all of a sudden...
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maybe was a heliumstatus glitch, it doesnt always load properly
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Parylizer
maybe was a heliumstatus glitch, it doesnt always load properly
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 8:21 PM
Fair enough. 🙂
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20:22
I'll have to stick with the rest of the data. 🙂 You just don't get those kind of results with p2p issues.
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DevilBear
and its being worked on that the beacon interval is not working properly so you automatically assume theres something suspect about the setup and it couldnt be that just maybe hes a severe victim of the broken beacon interval? If you are referring to the first link (edited)
The part I don't get is why you are being dramatic about all this stuff. The two hotspots to which you linked both have something about them that is not ideal. One is not beaconing enough to look right. The other one is getting so many witnesses it looks totally sus. Ok, now that I know the second is on the side of a mountain I get why it is doing what it is doing. Sus-ness explained. I still don't think it is an ideal set up; conveniently it is also not affected by this HIP. I just don't understand why you aren't replying with "I get this hotspot looks sus, but it is legit for these reasons." Which then leads to the conclusion of "while this is just one hotspot, we need to be on the lookout for similar set ups so that we don't curtail legit set ups like this one." To which @ElonTusk | 5Gchipped and myself and others will reply with "awesome, we have a characteristic to look out for, so now we can help Anthony code this HIP even more wisely than he is already planning". And then you will be the hero to all the hotspots that would have otherwise suffered as collateral damage. (edited)
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KeithR
The part I don't get is why you are being dramatic about all this stuff. The two hotspots to which you linked both have something about them that is not ideal. One is not beaconing enough to look right. The other one is getting so many witnesses it looks totally sus. Ok, now that I know the second is on the side of a mountain I get why it is doing what it is doing. Sus-ness explained. I still don't think it is an ideal set up; conveniently it is also not affected by this HIP. I just don't understand why you aren't replying with "I get this hotspot looks sus, but it is legit for these reasons." Which then leads to the conclusion of "while this is just one hotspot, we need to be on the lookout for similar set ups so that we don't curtail legit set ups like this one." To which @ElonTusk | 5Gchipped and myself and others will reply with "awesome, we have a characteristic to look out for, so now we can help Anthony code this HIP even more wisely than he is already planning". And then you will be the hero to all the hotspots that would have otherwise suffered as collateral damage. (edited)
following along the whole conversation please... "There is no chance your hotspot is going to hear the dog collar below first. No way you are going to hear my garden sensor first. Odds are slim you are going to be first in any sort of location tracking either. " too which I showed two different hotspots (that may or may not be suspect and stated I give them the benefit of the doubt) that are also actively transmitting Data packets as well as having witnessing within minutes of the quoted statement being posted means the assumption of the quoted piece is extremely inaccurate.
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I did not see any data happening in the last 20 hours. All I saw was witnessing and challenges.
20:34
I was on my phone, so maybe that explains it.
20:35
But regardless, I still think the mountain top install is not ideal. There is no way it will hear the dog collar first down in the valley. All the hotspots below are clearly closer.
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KeithR
I did not see any data happening in the last 20 hours. All I saw was witnessing and challenges.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 8:35 PM
Well the mountain one in CO is moving data. Problem is there doesn't appear to be info as far as where it came from (near or far) (edited)
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beaconing not enough is easily attributable to the helium network not working as intended and does not in and of itself equate to the hotspot owner cheating the system
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KeithR
But regardless, I still think the mountain top install is not ideal. There is no way it will hear the dog collar first down in the valley. All the hotspots below are clearly closer.
so where is the mountain hotspot getting all the data packets from?
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radio waves are limited to physics...so distance is huge in which hotspot will hear it first. Again, I did say the mountain top installs will be useful as they will hear the far away hotspots and the very rare event that some sensor fires off and every hotspot before it misses the signal. Useful but not ideal.
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DevilBear
so where is the mountain hotspot getting all the data packets from?
I would expect from hikers on the mountain. (edited)
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I did a little digging on the owner of that hotspot and the last I checked he has 29 hotspots and most of them are deployed going into the front range of the rockies in remote spots
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KeithR
But regardless, I still think the mountain top install is not ideal. There is no way it will hear the dog collar first down in the valley. All the hotspots below are clearly closer.
First maybe not, but why does that matter? You are talking milliseconds of difference. The unit in the city may not even hear the transmission at all with all the interference, the mountain might be further but has higher chance of having line of sight which is more important and has higher chance of hearing that signal. Go to any city or town with mountains nearby and look where the cell phone towers are. On the mountain (edited)
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DevilBear
I did a little digging on the owner of that hotspot and the last I checked he has 29 hotspots and most of them are deployed going into the front range of the rockies in remote spots
Sounds like he has a deal with a tower company or power company, huh? Cool. Not where I would chase deals. But I get it.
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KeithR
I would expect from hikers on the mountain. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 8:38 PM
Hmm likely. There also seems to be areas within 7km that could be picking up some devices. 🙂
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with hotspotty I can see exactly where they are at... the one I pointed out is actually sharing the peak with a local radio station tower. another is similar but a different radio station
20:40
so imo opinion hats off to that owner hes making a huge effort to expand the helium network into remote areas and I see people in here automatically assuming hes cheating the system
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Parylizer
First maybe not, but why does that matter? You are talking milliseconds of difference. The unit in the city may not even hear the transmission at all with all the interference, the mountain might be further but has higher chance of having line of sight which is more important and has higher chance of hearing that signal. Go to any city or town with mountains nearby and look where the cell phone towers are. On the mountain (edited)
I do appreciate the point you are making. The cell towers are up there; but no competition with towers down below. But in the LoRa case, there are also hotspots down in the valley that are "far" closer. Milliseconds yes...still closer though.
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in fact I have plotted out the closest hiking trails to get to see first hand what the set up is because hes setup in areas that easily get 4+ feet of snow
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KeithR
I do appreciate the point you are making. The cell towers are up there; but no competition with towers down below. But in the LoRa case, there are also hotspots down in the valley that are "far" closer. Milliseconds yes...still closer though.
Right, I'm just saying who hears it first doesn't really matter when its such a small measurement the person looking to find their dog won't even notice the difference and being up on the mountain like that provides a much more reliable connection (edited)
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the only thing I see with this peak deployment is that it is too ideal. you look at a topography map in google earth and hes dead center of the best peak to have the best vies into the mountain areas and to see all of denver in line of sight
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DevilBear
so imo opinion hats off to that owner hes making a huge effort to expand the helium network into remote areas and I see people in here automatically assuming hes cheating the system
No. No. No. That's my point. I am not assuming he is cheating. I am saying the statistics look suspect. Which they do. My mind at that point is clearly open to you explaining that it is not anything nefarious. In fact, I think we all want you to find the characteristic that explains those legit hotspots that unfortunately look sus. Because if you do, then we have something that can really improve the HIP. (edited)
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Parylizer
Right, I'm just saying who hears it first doesn't really matter when its such a small measurement the person looking to find their dog won't even notice the difference and being up on the mountain like that provides a much more reliable connection (edited)
First gets the DC credits. No other hotspots get DCs unless the owner of the sensor has paid extra to allow for multiple hotspots to catch the signal. (edited)
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I got a 4x4 truck and theres a trail head within 2 miles... hotspotty gives me the exact lat and long...
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@KeithR If the network improves to a point where hotpots are beaconing consistently and proper frequency, that alone will improve the viability of this hip alot (edited)
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There is also three house within a few miles.
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Parylizer
@KeithR If the network improves to a point where hotpots are beaconing consistently and proper frequency, that alone will improve the viability of this hip alot (edited)
And that is already baked in. Twice in fact. Anthony won't be done before light hotspots AND the compensation factor.
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20:47
So let's find another characteristic to improve the HIP...
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se I learn by observing and then try to learn and build for myself based on what I observe. I dont try to "improve" my situation by tearing someone else down
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But the ideal set up is one that hears a bunch of other hotspots and a bunch of other hotspots hear it. One that hears 500 hotspots is not ideal. Too much redundancy.
20:49
Anthony wants us to determine what that ratio is for an ideal set up.
20:50
I would have started my argument at 1:1 plus some sort of compensation factor. Clearly I am too strict. 🙂
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If you look at me hotspot I have a fairly high roofmounted 8dbi antena. If you look at the terrain the places Im not getting witnessed by are in dips and valleys. But then again Im using 8DBi. oddly Im up high enough that im getting their beacons but mine are going right over their heads... a lower DBi antena would probably improve that.
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8:1 is being too damn generous in my book.
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DevilBear
If you look at me hotspot I have a fairly high roofmounted 8dbi antena. If you look at the terrain the places Im not getting witnessed by are in dips and valleys. But then again Im using 8DBi. oddly Im up high enough that im getting their beacons but mine are going right over their heads... a lower DBi antena would probably improve that.
The slope must be steep. Because on flat surface an 8 dBi hits the ground in 5x the height of the install.
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pull up topography maps of denver
20:53
look at ripe lipstick viper. you'll see bands across where I get witnessed by. the bands dont exactly match up but they are damn near close to matching where the valleys are
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You are doing great! And you are not affected by the HIP. What's the problem?
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I also have a a hill to the northwest of me and theres hotspots on the direct opposite slope. I dont see those but ones further to the northwest I see
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KeithR
I would have started my argument at 1:1 plus some sort of compensation factor. Clearly I am too strict. 🙂
1:1 would only work if witnesses were not limited to 18 per beacon. Beaconing on the other hand is unlimited so it's not even reasonable to expect them to be the same. With everything as it should be the most witnesses that would ever be shown is 3 x 18 = 54 per day. Or 378 for a week. But even an "ok" setup can get hear more beacons than that
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KeithR
You are doing great! And you are not affected by the HIP. What's the problem?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 8:55 PM
That mountain hotspot isn't affected either 🙂
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Parylizer
1:1 would only work if witnesses were not limited to 18 per beacon. Beaconing on the other hand is unlimited so it's not even reasonable to expect them to be the same. With everything as it should be the most witnesses that would ever be shown is 3 x 18 = 54 per day. Or 378 for a week. But even an "ok" setup can get hear more beacons than that
Again, I am strict. I have no issues with witness count being limited to 18. That sounds like too much redundancy already.
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KeithR
You are doing great! And you are not affected by the HIP. What's the problem?
See you are using the equation for the HIP and I dont believe the tool is using the compensation factor that relies on broken beaconing and then saying no issues
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KeithR
Again, I am strict. I have no issues with witness count being limited to 18. That sounds like too much redundancy already.
Right, strict and impossible expectations are different though (edited)
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if you look at my sent beacons for the last 60 days almost 25% of the time I have 1 or no beacons for the day
20:57
the only reason Im not being clipped is Im about 50% (on average) below the desired 4 sent beacons a day
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wouldn't having less than the desired sent beacons increase your chance of being "clipped" though @DevilBear
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DevilBear
if you look at my sent beacons for the last 60 days almost 25% of the time I have 1 or no beacons for the day
I understand. I have a hotspot that hasn't beaconed in a month. Nobody can figure out what my issue is. I turned it off for a week (ends Friday). I am hoping that the three day thing (it will no longer be counted towards the transmit scale) will kick in and clear whatever is up. I am at my wits end about it. But clearly in this state, it is not an ideal set up.
20:58
It deserves to be clipped.
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Parylizer
Right, strict and impossible expectations are different though (edited)
Not impossible. Definitely unreasonable. 🙂 (edited)
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KeithR
It deserves to be clipped.
haha don't be too hard on yourself 😄 most likely it doesn't
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KeithR
I understand. I have a hotspot that hasn't beaconed in a month. Nobody can figure out what my issue is. I turned it off for a week (ends Friday). I am hoping that the three day thing (it will no longer be counted towards the transmit scale) will kick in and clear whatever is up. I am at my wits end about it. But clearly in this state, it is not an ideal set up.
Thats my point a lot of beaconing issues dont seem to be the individual hotspot but the helium network
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the network is just very messed up, and no beaconing doesn't mean you can't transfer data which is the end goal anyways
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DevilBear
Thats my point a lot of beaconing issues dont seem to be the individual hotspot but the helium network
But they are commonly a clue as to network issues. that is, the network the hotspot is on. (edited)
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and now we have a hip that wants to use as its fundamental piece a broken metric
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Parylizer
the network is just very messed up, and no beaconing doesn't mean you can't transfer data which is the end goal anyways
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 9:01 PM
As it was explained ( #diy-packet-forwarder ) , you need uplink and downlink
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DevilBear
and now we have a hip that wants to use as its fundamental piece a broken metric
Not really. It won't be implemented until that issue goes away (well, we all hope it goes away when light hotspots come out).
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and basically punish hotspot owners for something that is not in their control
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 9:02 PM
97% of hotspots are already not affected by this HIP
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KeithR
Not really. It won't be implemented until that issue goes away (well, we all hope it goes away when light hotspots come out).
Ive worked in IT (fortune 500 companies) and process like these HIPs never work out that way...
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
As it was explained ( #diy-packet-forwarder ) , you need uplink and downlink
Yes, but POC is its own thing. You can have full uplink and downlink anility and not beacon cause that comes from being challenged etc etc, nothing to do with your hardwares abililty to transmit and receive (edited)
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BTW elon you can stop responding to my posts. You are blocked. You however are the only one blocked so when I see the message is blocked flag I know its you
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If you beacon and get no witnesses, then sure you may have an issue with your setup that would affect your transmit abililty, but in this case where you don't beacon at all, thats not your setup that is the issue
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Parylizer
Yes, but POC is its own thing. You can have full uplink and downlink anility and not beacon cause that comes from being challenged etc etc, nothing to do with your hardwares abililty to transmit and receive (edited)
But again, this identified issue is being considered. The HIP won't be implemented until it goes away and it is also has a buffer built in for such vagaries. (edited)
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Parylizer
If you beacon and get no witnesses, then sure you may have an issue with your setup that would affect your transmit abililty, but in this case where you don't beacon at all, thats not your setup that is the issue
Exactly what I am saying
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Parylizer
Yes, but POC is its own thing. You can have full uplink and downlink anility and not beacon cause that comes from being challenged etc etc, nothing to do with your hardwares abililty to transmit and receive (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 9:04 PM
No, I mean for data transfer for LoRa devices.
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So we can stop talking about the lack of beaconing due to Helium's issue. It won't be an issue any more when this gets implemented. Let's move on to something else.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
No, I mean for data transfer for LoRa devices.
Exactly. What we are saying is that if a hotspot isn't beaconing that does not mean it won't be able to handle data transfer
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Parylizer
Exactly. What we are saying is that if a hotspot isn't beaconing that does not mean it won't be able to handle data transfer
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 9:06 PM
And I'm saying that's not true. I was surprised to find this out as well. 🤷‍♂️
21:06
data transfer is not just one way
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Lol and we are telling you whatever you thought you "found out" isn't true
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
data transfer is not just one way
nobody is arguing with that
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Parylizer
Lol and we are telling you whatever you thought you "found out" isn't true
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 9:06 PM
omg... yes it is...
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A sensor has to uplink and then wait for an downlink to connect to the network.
21:07
Once connected, then it can send its signal. But every time it sends it, it waits for a downlink. Which may not come intentionally.
21:07
But if your hotspot does not beacon...
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KeithR
So we can stop talking about the lack of beaconing due to Helium's issue. It won't be an issue any more when this gets implemented. Let's move on to something else.
See thats where you can call me a doubting Thomas. When I say I work in IT I maintain, troubleshoot, install , etc multiple datacenters that are 144,000 to 288,000 square feet of raised floor. A blanket statement of blind faith that oh it'll be fixed before this is implemented doesnt fly with me... I have seen the same scenario play out time and time again between departments and even companies
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
omg... yes it is...
I think we might be on completely different trains right now. You were saying those hotspots that don't beacon won't be valuable cause they won't handle data very well but that is not true. A hotspot will beacon when it is challenged to do so, so those that aren't beaconing is because of a helium network issue where the hotspot is not being challenged like it is suppose to. It has nothing to do with its ability to handle data on the lora network
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DevilBear
See thats where you can call me a doubting Thomas. When I say I work in IT I maintain, troubleshoot, install , etc multiple datacenters that are 144,000 to 288,000 square feet of raised floor. A blanket statement of blind faith that oh it'll be fixed before this is implemented doesnt fly with me... I have seen the same scenario play out time and time again between departments and even companies
Totally. But in this case, it is one guy doing the coding. And then we all get to vote to stop it if the issue hasn't gone away. I am going to guess Anthony waits so that his time isn't wasted by a no vote.
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I have also seen fun issues where people implement workarounds to bypass a broken feature and it ends badly...
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KeithR
But if your hotspot does not beacon...
read previous message. No beacons does not mean a hotspot can't transmit.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 9:09 PM
"groot — 01/14/2022 Thats the whole problem with hotspots that only witness, they're actually useless for end devices."
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Parylizer
I think we might be on completely different trains right now. You were saying those hotspots that don't beacon won't be valuable cause they won't handle data very well but that is not true. A hotspot will beacon when it is challenged to do so, so those that aren't beaconing is because of a helium network issue where the hotspot is not being challenged like it is suppose to. It has nothing to do with its ability to handle data on the lora network
The point of the network isn't for us to get PoC rewards...it is to transfer data. Successful transfer of data requires uplinks and downlinks.
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KeithR
The point of the network isn't for us to get PoC rewards...it is to transfer data. Successful transfer of data requires uplinks and downlinks.
Literally what i said. I don't understand your point. (edited)
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Parylizer
read previous message. No beacons does not mean a hotspot can't transmit.
What? Please explain. No beacon is no downlink. No downlink and my sensor can't send data through your hotspot.
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IE dell made a software fix to bypass a broken feature in the ESXi hypervisor. Never told anybody at VMware about the broken bit or that they bypassed it in there BIOs... Lo and behold VMware found the issue in fixed it not knowing dell had a workaround in place. All of sudden dell servers started breaking....
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KeithR
What? Please explain. No beacon is no downlink. No downlink and my sensor can't send data through your hotspot.
incorrect. Beacon with no witnesses is no downlink. No beacons at all is helium network issue cause it was never told to beacon in the first place.
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Parylizer
incorrect. Beacon with no witnesses is no downlink. No beacons at all is helium network issue cause it was never told to beacon in the first place.
"No beaconing" and "beacons with zero witnesses" are two totally different issues. (edited)
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Parylizer
incorrect. Beacon with no witnesses is no downlink. No beacons at all is helium network issue cause it was never told to beacon in the first place.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 9:12 PM
No beacons can also be a setup issue where the hotspot cannot receive the challenges
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KeithR
"No beaconing" and "beacons with zero witnesses" are two totally different issues. (edited)
this is correct
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
No beacons can also be a setup issue where the hotspot cannot receive the challenges
Sure, but this is still on the helium network side not on the lora radio side
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We have only been talking about "not beaconing".
21:14
Beacons with zero witnesses are almost always because the challenger is relayed and thus unable to receive the witness receipts. (edited)
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KeithR
"No beaconing" and "beacons with zero witnesses" are two totally different issues. (edited)
Do you hear an echo? seems to be an echo in here i keep hearing back what I already said
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Parylizer
Sure, but this is still on the helium network side not on the lora radio side
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 9:14 PM
Well yeah. I don't think anyone is blaming the RF side of things.
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KeithR
Beacons with zero witnesses are almost always because the challenger is relayed and thus unable to receive the witness receipts. (edited)
I wouldnt say flat out unable... Id say isnt able to repsond in the timeframe for the POC recipts
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Well yeah. I don't think anyone is blaming the RF side of things.
You were, you said no beacons means the unit has transmit issues did you not
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Parylizer
Sure, but this is still on the helium network side not on the lora radio side
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 9:15 PM
It's not the helium network issue if it's a local setup issue.
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Parylizer
You were, you said no beacons means the unit has transmit issues did you not
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 9:15 PM
No
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DevilBear
I wouldnt say flat out unable... Id say isnt able to repsond in the timeframe for the POC recipts
Excellent nuance.
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KeithR
Excellent nuance.
thank you
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It's not the helium network issue if it's a local setup issue.
Well part of the helium network runs on the hotspots. So when I say helium network issues I mean the helium software on the units as well which affects the network.
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But my point is that we aren't talking about beaconing with zero witnesses. The ones that are sus are the ones that are not beaconing.
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21:16
"beaconing with zero witnesses" is definitely solved by light hotspots.
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relayed means you have a connection but its being supplied by another hotspot... now if that hotspot is 100 feet way and sitting on gig fiber connection you being relayed probably wont be an issue
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KeithR
But my point is that we aren't talking about beaconing with zero witnesses. The ones that are sus are the ones that are not beaconing.
Neither was I, i only brought it up cause you guys kept mixing up the two
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Parylizer
Well part of the helium network runs on the hotspots. So when I say helium network issues I mean the helium software on the units as well which affects the network.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 9:17 PM
I thought you talking about the p2p, not about the firmware
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And we are pretty sure that beaconing every 480 minutes will also be solved by light hotspots. "Can I beacon?" "no" says the validator, "you beaconed 34 minutes ago."
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"The ones that are sus are the ones that are not beaconing" this is where we have disagreement... This does not mean automatic sus. Case in point 25% of the time I dont beacon or only beacon 1 a day
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KeithR
And we are pretty sure that beaconing every 480 minutes will also be solved by light hotspots. "Can I beacon?" "no" says the validator, "you beaconed 34 minutes ago."
scrool up to what I said eariler today
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I thought you talking about the p2p, not about the firmware
Both, they work together
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DevilBear
"The ones that are sus are the ones that are not beaconing" this is where we have disagreement... This does not mean automatic sus. Case in point 25% of the time I dont beacon or only beacon 1 a day
Yes it is completely sus. It is also easily explained by the failure of the network to challenge your hotspot enough.
21:19
And this HIP has that issue covered.
21:19
Twice
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KeithR
And we are pretty sure that beaconing every 480 minutes will also be solved by light hotspots. "Can I beacon?" "no" says the validator, "you beaconed 34 minutes ago."
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 9:19 PM
Well validators will solve the p2p issues (plus relay will be a moot issue ❤️ )
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Yeah light hotspots certainly solve a lot of issues lol
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@KeithR to save you scrolling "If you want to base HIP42 on sent beacons then you need to ensure every hotspot is hitting the average of 4 beacons a day over say a 60 day period you could achieve this with two counters in the hotspot firmware. 1 - when to send a beacon. Randomly generate a time between 1 minute and 5 hours and 59 minutes. 2- reset the first counter. This counter counts down from 6 hours. When it hits zero it triggers a refresh of counter 1. You now have a randomized across all hotspots an average of 4 sent beacons a day oh but people will get into the firmware and changes those counters... Well all updates are OTA. MD5 checksum the OTA firmware bundle and compare it randomly 2x a day to the md5 checksum of the firmware in the hotspot. If they dont match somebody has been modifying their firmware... Oh I forgot to add in counter 2 get started upon the first value assignment to counter 1 Now on top of the above you can add third counter that counts how many times the hotspot has been part of the 18 witnesses on a receipt. Its my understanding that theres actually 25 hotspots on a witness receipt and 7 are randomly dropped as part of the dropping process you can add in a check of third counter. If that counter > than a set limit then the hotspot automatically becomes one of the 7 dropped"
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But Anthony needs to get coding. So can we find other characteristics to upgrade this HIP?
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Very rough high level
21:22
but I think you see the idea... and you actually just touched on it with " no you just beaconed 30 minutes ago"
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DevilBear
@KeithR to save you scrolling "If you want to base HIP42 on sent beacons then you need to ensure every hotspot is hitting the average of 4 beacons a day over say a 60 day period you could achieve this with two counters in the hotspot firmware. 1 - when to send a beacon. Randomly generate a time between 1 minute and 5 hours and 59 minutes. 2- reset the first counter. This counter counts down from 6 hours. When it hits zero it triggers a refresh of counter 1. You now have a randomized across all hotspots an average of 4 sent beacons a day oh but people will get into the firmware and changes those counters... Well all updates are OTA. MD5 checksum the OTA firmware bundle and compare it randomly 2x a day to the md5 checksum of the firmware in the hotspot. If they dont match somebody has been modifying their firmware... Oh I forgot to add in counter 2 get started upon the first value assignment to counter 1 Now on top of the above you can add third counter that counts how many times the hotspot has been part of the 18 witnesses on a receipt. Its my understanding that theres actually 25 hotspots on a witness receipt and 7 are randomly dropped as part of the dropping process you can add in a check of third counter. If that counter > than a set limit then the hotspot automatically becomes one of the 7 dropped"
I like it. The 25 witness limit went away. So it is all hotspots that respond in 5 minutes (?) and then randomly picks 18. I would add, if I got randomly excluded x times, I automatically win the next time. Adds a little bit of socialism (everyone wins a little).
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yeah the 25 witness thing was the last time I looked... it changed a lot and I couldnt pin that piece down exactly
21:24
but the basic premise is beacons are controlled by the hotspots with some oversight
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I would create a specialized Router (the name of the state channel mechanism) that just checks a hotspots claim to be 6 hours since it last beaconed. "Can I beacon, I am pretty sure it has been 6 hours and 2 seconds". Validator responds "bullshit, you did it 34 minutes ago, no beacon allowed." or "it has been 6 hours, feel free to beacon if you can". (edited)
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I know one of the lat things was that the 18 were random to prevent the I have the fastest internet so I also get the witness credit and it spreads around actually validating
21:27
I dont know what the pool is that the 18 get selected from
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KeithR
I would create a specialized Router (the name of the state channel mechanism) that just checks a hotspots claim to be 6 hours since it last beaconed. "Can I beacon, I am pretty sure it has been 6 hours and 2 seconds". Validator responds "bullshit, you did it 34 minutes ago, no beacon allowed." or "it has been 6 hours, feel free to beacon if you can". (edited)
what I was going for is randomizing within 6 hours when a hot spot beacons so you dont have 300000 hotspots all beacon within the same second
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DevilBear
I dont know what the pool is that the 18 get selected from
Pretty sure there is no limit. It collects all receipts for the 20 blocks
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Radrob
Pretty sure there is no limit. It collects all receipts for the 20 blocks
so you think it collects everything for 20 blocks and then randomly selects 18?
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DevilBear
so you think it collects everything for 20 blocks and then randomly selects 18?
Yes. I thought it was 5 minutes. But blocks makes more sense (edited)
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DevilBear
so you think it collects everything for 20 blocks and then randomly selects 18?
Yes
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I kept going in curcles the last time I looking and could only find ref to 25 limit
21:30
this was a couple months ago though
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That was the old limit
21:30
Before being cut to 18
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DevilBear
what I was going for is randomizing within 6 hours when a hot spot beacons so you dont have 300000 hotspots all beacon within the same second
I have 420 kiosks that check in every 30 seconds. It is remarkable how fast they spread out from all starting at the same time. The vagaries of the internal clock. The fact it might be doing something else when it is time to check-in (we make the check-in sequence only occur if it isn't doing something else).
21:31
It takes two days to look completely random.
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@KeithR so back to lack of beaconing being automatic sus. I have over a 6 day period sent beacons of 0,1,1,0,1,2,5 am I automatically sus?
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DevilBear
@KeithR so back to lack of beaconing being automatic sus. I have over a 6 day period sent beacons of 0,1,1,0,1,2,5 am I automatically sus?
Yes.
21:33
But I am happy to hear why your data that looks sus isn't sus.
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why? I have a completely legit setup
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Then it is very easy to explain away the sus-ness; no?
21:33
And let's code that out of the HIP.
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not relayed, acuurately reported, synce all the bells and whistles
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DevilBear
not relayed, acuurately reported, synce all the bells and whistles
I would argue you are answering the wrong question. You are telling me why you are a legit set up. Tell me why what looks sus is not sus.
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the dates are november 26th through december 2nd 2021
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I thought it was concluded the HIP doesn't think your hotspot should be clipped?
21:35
So while KethR might think you don't have an ideal setup (because you are on a cell tower or whatever), the HIP thinks you are just fine. (edited)
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see theres my issue
21:36
my setup is ideal
21:36
go back and check network incidents over that time frame
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DevilBear
my setup is ideal
This is where we keep going in circles. If you don't beacon enough, then you are not ideal. Not beaconing enough is sus. Not beaconing because the Helium network is being stupid with your hotspot is not sus. We should wait until light hotspots are implemented before we implement this HIP.
21:38
And just in case, we should build in a compensation factor to create a buffer.
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"Not beaconing because the Helium network is being stupid with your hotspot is not sus." <----- my point
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Solved.
21:38
Move on to next characteristic.
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But far too many in here are automatically jumping to you are not sending becons but witnessing so you are somehow cheating (edited)
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DevilBear
But far too many in here are automatically jumping to you are not sending becons but witnessing so you are somehow cheating (edited)
Indeed. Because that is what your statistics suggest. But since it happens all too often we need to wait until light hotspots. I think you are taking "your data looks sus" way too personally man.
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last five days 1,2,1,3,3 this is not an issue with my hot spot its the helium network failing its sent beacon goal
21:41
Im not taking it personal... anybody could have the same issue
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My dog looks mean because he weighs 100 pounds and has a hell of a bark. I don't take it personally when someone says he looks mean. But he is not mean. I can't get mad that they think he looks mean. He probably does; especially to people that don't like dogs. People that like dogs know that a golden retriever is highly likely to not be mean.
21:43
You are getting upset that we say your hotspot looks sus. It is ok.
21:43
We aren't saying you are bad person.
21:43
And it is hotspots like yours that will help improve the HIP.
21:43
But we have limited time. We need to find other factors.
21:44
We got these two plenty well covered.
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you're also saying by default when you know the beaconing interval isnt working as advertised that the other two systems I linked are sus
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Right. Big ass dogs are scary. I know that. I am also open to hear you say "my dog is not mean".
21:45
Let's move on man.
21:45
Do you agree that a ratio of 1000:1 beacons to witnesses is probably not helpful?
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I wish I could rember the name but theres another hotspot in amsterdam that is like 45m high sitting on a knoll that is making bank. evryone that looks at instantly says hes cheating the system because he actually has an ideal setup
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DevilBear
I wish I could rember the name but theres another hotspot in amsterdam that is like 45m high sitting on a knoll that is making bank. evryone that looks at instantly says hes cheating the system because he actually has an ideal setup
Do you not agree that the hotspot's statistics look like he is cheating?
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KeithR
Do you agree that a ratio of 1000:1 beacons to witnesses is probably not helpful?
it all depends on how data traffic is being relayed if at all...
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KeithR
Do you not agree that the hotspot's statistics look like he is cheating?
No. by default I go hot damn what is he doing so right to be making that
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Jesus christ man. Do you agree that a ratio of 1000:1 beacons to witnesses is probably not helpful? Assuming we wait until light hotspots are implemented first and we have a little buffer for just in case situations? (edited)
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and then I start digging to see if I can garner any tips
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Do you think that 1:1 is too strict?
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KeithR
Right. Big ass dogs are scary. I know that. I am also open to hear you say "my dog is not mean".
I think a more accurate analogy would be saying your dog is mean because its black. Cause black dogs are mean. When black has no correlation to a dog being mean at all. Just like beaconing or not has reason to suspect a hotspot.
21:49
or rather should I say, beaconing is not reliable enough to use as a metric for determining if a hotspot is suspicious.
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Black or huge are both characteristics that people who dislike dogs see as indicating the dog is mean. While neither are direct causes.
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Parylizer
or rather should I say, beaconing is not reliable enough to use as a metric for determining if a hotspot is suspicious.
But it will be once light hotspots are implemented. We expect that will be...
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there are legit units without beaconing and cheaters with no beaconing, and there are both legit and cheaters who both beacon, so we can't use that to suspect hotspots....
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now this guy that I found out in fort lupton was making $7k a month but had his height listed as 350m.... thats half as tall as the very tallest tower in the whole state (yes I know random facts like that) that maybe me think something wasnt quite right
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KeithR
But it will be once light hotspots are implemented. We expect that will be...
Sure, it will definitely be more consistent
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KeithR
Do you think that 1:1 is too strict?
depends on the helium network goals
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DevilBear
now this guy that I found out in fort lupton was making $7k a month but had his height listed as 350m.... thats half as tall as the very tallest tower in the whole state (yes I know random facts like that) that maybe me think something wasnt quite right
yeah especially if no towers that tall exist in the area lol
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Once light hotspots solve the p2p networking issues, there will no longer be any legit units that don't also beacon.
21:52
They will be completely useless to the network.
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Parylizer
yeah especially if no towers that tall exist in the area lol
yeah google maps didnt show one... usually you can see the shadows. IE the hotspots coloacted at radio towers I mentioned earlier you can see the shadow of the radio tower
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Because no sensor can uplink and downlink with them thus not provide data transfer. (edited)
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KeithR
Because no sensor can uplink and downlink with them thus not provide data transfer. (edited)
so take the magic sepia camel... its not a lot of traffic but its providing data transfer
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DevilBear
so take the magic sepia camel... its not a lot of traffic but its providing data transfer
I don't understand why you can't admit that it looks sus.
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because I know the beacon interval is not working as intended...
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If it passes all the tests, then the HIP won't clip it. No penalties despite looking sus.
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DevilBear
because I know the beacon interval is not working as intended...
Fuck me to tears man. That issue is already solved.
21:56
Stop bringing it up.
21:56
Move on. It is covered.
21:56
Stick a pin in it for when we vote to implement.
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KeithR
Once light hotspots solve the p2p networking issues, there will no longer be any legit units that don't also beacon.
I think we need to set some wording straight here. You are correct here if we say units that beacon WITH little or no witnesses not units with just no beaconing. I think that is what you mean. Because as we already established before no beaconing is different and doesn't mean they can't broadcast. (edited)
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If it actually isn't solved at that time, please complain loudly. Until then, we got it.
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in regards to your ratio questions I would be excited to..... well damn it I just went to llok at what my counts were and the explore api looks busted
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KeithR
I don't understand why you can't admit that it looks sus.
Because it doesn't look suspicious at all. Can we stop shortening words to three letters. This is why is doesn't look suspicious: https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/897221256607301703/933236958174515261
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earning 0 and 7day average shows nothing no number just blank
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Parylizer
I think we need to set some wording straight here. You are correct here if we say units that beacon WITH little or no witnesses not units with just no beaconing. I think that is what you mean. Because as we already established before no beaconing is different and doesn't mean they can't broadcast. (edited)
I think you said that backwards. Not beaconing means not legit; always. Beaconing with zero witnesses looks suspect but it is legit. Beaconing not often enough looks sus but is caused by p2p issues; already covered. (edited)
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KeithR
I think you said that backwards. Not beaconing means not legit; always. Beaconing with zero witnesses looks suspect but it is legit. Beaconing not often enough looks sus but is caused by p2p issues; already covered. (edited)
Umm nope I said it exactly as I intended to and what is correct.
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Not beaconing means not legit every time. I have not heard a single explanation or scenario to explain how it is legit. (edited)
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yeap explorer.helium.com appears to be borked
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My hotspot is not beaconing ever. It looks sus. It is not ideal. It should be clipped. I really want to figure what the issue is so that I can fix it.
22:02
This HIP is forcing me to fix it. (edited)
22:02
That is a good thing.
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KeithR
This HIP is forcing me to fix it. (edited)
and what if the issue isnt your hotspot but the helium network
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I have no motivation really to fix it though as I make bank on all the witnessing it does.
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KeithR
Not beaconing means not legit every time. I have not heard a single explanation or scenario to explain how it is legit. (edited)
Oh boy. Maybe read the past 100's of messages during this whole convo? I'll recap: With the current state of the network there are cases where units go long periods without beaconing and it has no relation to the hotspot at all, its purely just the helium network not challenging the unit.
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KeithR
My hotspot is not beaconing ever. It looks sus. It is not ideal. It should be clipped. I really want to figure what the issue is so that I can fix it.
You literally have a hotspot that disproves your point lol. Are you cheating or gaming since you are not beaconing? I'm guessing not....so exactly what we are saying, sometimes legit hotspots don't beacon
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Parylizer
Oh boy. Maybe read the past 100's of messages during this whole convo? I'll recap: With the current state of the network there are cases where units go long periods without beaconing and it has no relation to the hotspot at all, its purely just the helium network not challenging the unit.
I covered that in my explanation. It is you not beaconing enough. You are only doing it some times. That is the p2p issues. This HIP covers that. My hotspot does not beacon ever. (edited)
22:04
I am not cheating. Nor gaming. But something is wrong. And it needs to be fixed. I am the perfect case for this HIP.
22:05
Once I figure out what is wrong, it will either be fixed by me or reported to Anthony to be a characteristic he needs to code out of the HIP.
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The worry is when you beacon and you don't get witnesses, or maybe to be more specific when witnesses you receive don't receive your beacons. Then that might be suspicious, since you hear them but they dont hear you so its a one way street = not good for the network goals (edited)
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Covered.
22:05
Move on.
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KeithR
Move on.
I thought we had moved on already but you keep coming back to spreading false info. The scenario I described is the ONLY time a unit could be suspicious, NOT when it isn't beaconing at all or very little. (edited)
22:06
Which yes is covered with this hip
22:06
no argument there
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Not beaconing enough causes your statistics to look sus. You understand that right?
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@KeithR I was going to answer your ratio questions but I want to refer to my stats before answering and the api at least why I look at it is borked and not showing info
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We know why. And we have it covered. But that doesn't take away from the fact that it looks sus.
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DevilBear
@KeithR I was going to answer your ratio questions but I want to refer to my stats before answering and the api at least why I look at it is borked and not showing info
My point was based on hoping you said 1000:1 was not helpful and 1:1 was too strict. Which leads me to my point, the ideal ratio is somewhere between those two ratios. (edited)
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KeithR
Not beaconing enough causes your statistics to look sus. You understand that right?
No I don't because it doesn't. Once you understand how the network works, then it's easy to look at that and see it for what it is.
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Your stats of 2200 beacons and 12 witnesses does not say "I don't beacon enough". It says "I am sus". Further investigation is in order.
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22:10
Further analyses discovers the issue is "not beaconing enough". (edited)
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No beaconing or lack thereof is a different issue and not really relevant for discussion on this HIP in my opinion. As we are hoping that will be solved before this HIP is live anyways.
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KeithR
My point was based on hoping you said 1000:1 was not helpful and 1:1 was too strict. Which leads me to my point, the ideal ratio is somewhere between those two ratios. (edited)
I can agree its somewhere in there. The main issue is that for the HIP to not be flawed it needs to base its ratios off from a constant. IE make sure every hotspot beacons 4 times a day rain sun or snow...
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No beaconing is not solved by light hotspots.
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DevilBear
I can agree its somewhere in there. The main issue is that for the HIP to not be flawed it needs to base its ratios off from a constant. IE make sure every hotspot beacons 4 times a day rain sun or snow...
Got it.
22:10
Done.
22:11
Light hotspot code solves that.
22:11
it is supposed to at least.
22:12
Once light hotspots, the ratio is based on 4 beacons because well every hotspot is going to try beaconing every six hours. If it doesn't beacon it is its own fault and indicative of something wrong.
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Trying to set a hard cap based of an inconsistant flucuating value is extremely poor solution in my mind... Making the solution more complex by trying to add a counterwieght to the variation makes it even worse
22:14
granite, onxy, pumice, sedimentary??? inquiring minds want to know
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Deleted due to being unrelated to this HIP.
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Parylizer
The worry is when you beacon and you don't get witnesses, or maybe to be more specific when witnesses you receive don't receive your beacons. Then that might be suspicious, since you hear them but they dont hear you so its a one way street = not good for the network goals (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 10:39 PM
They don't have to be bidirectional with the same hotspots.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 10:56 PM
#⸺ announcements ⸺
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Hey guys I don’t understand the whole technicals , I have been watching video sin YouTube and I am wondering in this affecting negatively my only hotspot ?
22:58
Like I just upgraded the antenna and set up, was it a waste of money then? 😭 thank you
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🐻🔥
Hey guys I don’t understand the whole technicals , I have been watching video sin YouTube and I am wondering in this affecting negatively my only hotspot ?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 11:12 PM
There is a link in the pins you can use to check your hotspot. Odds are is you're fine. :)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
There is a link in the pins you can use to check your hotspot. Odds are is you're fine. :)
Thank you! So who is really affecting this negatively? People who is doing anything specifically? I was watching that this will affect negatively “gamers”? But not sure, gamers are these people who are cheating by finding a way to place hotspot in the same place? Sorry my IGNORANCE
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Is this HIP take in consideration Hardware problems There are bobcat sending 1-2becon in 5 days
05:29
And are a lot of them.
05:30
And what about the relayed What this HIP do about does ones? Are a lot on relayed
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Here is a summary: This hip will clip the top end of earnings for the best located hotspots, reallocate those rewards to other hotspots with less ideal setups and those on the frontier of the network, therefore increase the number of hotspots needed to cover the globe and increase the projects environmental footprint. If you share an IP and therefore share beacons with other hotspots in same IP, your earnings will be crushed. Some people will say get an VPN to get around that but helium is backend scaling VPN connections and you risk getting put on the denylist, not to mention added costs and complexity. Some will point to gaming but this hip is not needed to address gaming - hip 40 deals with that. Also there are many issues with network performance that cause low beacon rates that even if you are perfectly setup you still might be clipped. (edited)
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True , HIP-40 is solving the gaming issue No chance for this HIP to stop gaming In the best case will limit their earnings but not stop them (edited)
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Yep. I have a legitimate setup that would be harmed by this proposal. Used the tool to check. Set up a VPN, did everything right. Still affected.
07:14
My question is ...... if the purpose of this HIP is to ensure hotspots can communicate in both directions, why can't the ratio be higher so hotspots that don't beacon enough aren't affected?
07:14
hotspots that witness "too much" are proposed to be dealt with by HIP 44 already
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dogcow
hotspots that witness "too much" are proposed to be dealt with by HIP 44 already
That HIP isn't approved yet. But sure the hard cap could be increased if HIP-44 was activated. But I don't think you'll like those results either.
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donp
Here is a summary: This hip will clip the top end of earnings for the best located hotspots, reallocate those rewards to other hotspots with less ideal setups and those on the frontier of the network, therefore increase the number of hotspots needed to cover the globe and increase the projects environmental footprint. If you share an IP and therefore share beacons with other hotspots in same IP, your earnings will be crushed. Some people will say get an VPN to get around that but helium is backend scaling VPN connections and you risk getting put on the denylist, not to mention added costs and complexity. Some will point to gaming but this hip is not needed to address gaming - hip 40 deals with that. Also there are many issues with network performance that cause low beacon rates that even if you are perfectly setup you still might be clipped. (edited)
🐵🇧🇧🛸 01/19/2022 9:43 AM
but the Q is where will be the line for those best located hotspots? Lot of ppl worked their asses of and put some extra 100s into better setups. Some risked their lives climbing towers for 60m of height to install hotspots. My 1st hotspot is in the suburbs and was a top performing one until the transmit scale went to 0.15. Faar to many questions in this HIP or lack of transparency. Leads me to thinking this is a gift for the chasing mass with low floor windowminers created by guys who can write texts.
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Anthonyra
That HIP isn't approved yet. But sure the hard cap could be increased if HIP-44 was activated. But I don't think you'll like those results either.
Why do you say it can be increased but only if hip 44 is activated?
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Anthonyra
That HIP isn't approved yet. But sure the hard cap could be increased if HIP-44 was activated. But I don't think you'll like those results either.
I took a look at my hotspot again, I'd be minimally affected by HIP 44. about 4-6 witness events per half hour
10:09
but about one beacon per 1.5 days
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donp
Why do you say it can be increased but only if hip 44 is activated?
Because if the cap was higher then it wouldn't work as intended in regards to witness stuffing/repeating however you want to describe it. HIP-44 would then shore up this. HIP-44 is only there to protect against the gaming fwiw. With that being said, I'm all ears with data about the entire network of better numbers in regards to compensation_factor and even the 0 wits list test beacon or minimum set at 24.
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Anthonyra
Because if the cap was higher then it wouldn't work as intended in regards to witness stuffing/repeating however you want to describe it. HIP-44 would then shore up this. HIP-44 is only there to protect against the gaming fwiw. With that being said, I'm all ears with data about the entire network of better numbers in regards to compensation_factor and even the 0 wits list test beacon or minimum set at 24.
Is the purpose of this HIP to ensure two-way communication, or is it to limit over-witnessing also? (edited)
10:25
if the former, then a higher ratio of witnesses/beacons would be tolerable I'm guessing
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It started as a solution to witness repeating/stuffing or supplemental witnessing. People are calling it a handful of different things now a days. But when I did the data analysis across the network I realized that there's a great deal of people who aren't providing PoC as intended by Helium. Majority don't beacon at all some caused by laziness, some caused by lack of knowledge, some because beacons don't reward well. I then realized that with HIP-15/17 there needs to be a clear definition for PoC and what it means to provide coverage. Because as of today, most people say hearing is the only thing your hotspot needs to do to provide coverage which is not correct. I also increased this cap by a lot (factor of 2) from what it would be simply based on network averages and performance
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Anthonyra
It started as a solution to witness repeating/stuffing or supplemental witnessing. People are calling it a handful of different things now a days. But when I did the data analysis across the network I realized that there's a great deal of people who aren't providing PoC as intended by Helium. Majority don't beacon at all some caused by laziness, some caused by lack of knowledge, some because beacons don't reward well. I then realized that with HIP-15/17 there needs to be a clear definition for PoC and what it means to provide coverage. Because as of today, most people say hearing is the only thing your hotspot needs to do to provide coverage which is not correct. I also increased this cap by a lot (factor of 2) from what it would be simply based on network averages and performance
I generally agree, I just don't think we should conflate different goals into the same HIP when we have another one intended to address over-witnessing already
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HIP-40, 42, and 44 once was the same HIP.. hence the overlap
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and I can see in the discussion here there's a bunch of people butthurt that they aren't on a mountain so they are just happy with anything that harms setups that earn more than theirs
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Anthonyra
HIP-40, 42, and 44 once was the same HIP.. hence the overlap
that explains a lot!
10:31
I mean, if you are witnessing way more than you are beaconing, that should still be fine as long as you still beacon. but beaconing is really inconsistent and it affects certain setups. if we think over-witnessing shouldn't be incentivized as much as it is now, then we have HIP 44
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It's a performance based cap for a reason. I want the great setups to still earn the most.. but those great setups also require a lot more work currently to make sure they are right. Lighthotspots should allow me to remove the compensation factor but it still won't guarantee 4 beacons a day like some people think. That's a cap that's already in place not a minimum. Nothing, forces a minimum beacon per day
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Anthonyra
It's a performance based cap for a reason. I want the great setups to still earn the most.. but those great setups also require a lot more work currently to make sure they are right. Lighthotspots should allow me to remove the compensation factor but it still won't guarantee 4 beacons a day like some people think. That's a cap that's already in place not a minimum. Nothing, forces a minimum beacon per day
right, and so the cap should force people to do the work to beacon properly, be it setting up a VPN or whatever, so you can't just drop an offgrid with cellular backhaul in the mountains somewhere and earn by witnessing all day without beaconing
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dogcow
right, and so the cap should force people to do the work to beacon properly, be it setting up a VPN or whatever, so you can't just drop an offgrid with cellular backhaul in the mountains somewhere and earn by witnessing all day without beaconing
Exactly
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but i do think, a cap with that goal is higher than a cap with the goal of limiting over-witnessing
10:35
so it's disappointing to see people be like, "oh well that hotpost has 2,000 witness events every 7 days, who cares if they are affected by this, they are overwitnessing and redundant" ........... well if they are beaconing properly, that's not an issue here. that's why there's hip 44. (edited)
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I personally don't like HIP-44 because it makes reward predicting and auditing a nightmare. Also, it's a static cap be that a soft one that would indeed if set incorrectly affect the best performing hotspots (edited)
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Both these proposals can affect the best-performing hotspots though. but it seems to be a goal of hip44 and an unintended consequence of hip42
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donp
Here is a summary: This hip will clip the top end of earnings for the best located hotspots, reallocate those rewards to other hotspots with less ideal setups and those on the frontier of the network, therefore increase the number of hotspots needed to cover the globe and increase the projects environmental footprint. If you share an IP and therefore share beacons with other hotspots in same IP, your earnings will be crushed. Some people will say get an VPN to get around that but helium is backend scaling VPN connections and you risk getting put on the denylist, not to mention added costs and complexity. Some will point to gaming but this hip is not needed to address gaming - hip 40 deals with that. Also there are many issues with network performance that cause low beacon rates that even if you are perfectly setup you still might be clipped. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/19/2022 11:00 AM
None of this is true
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
None of this is true
when people say things like "helium is backend scaling VPN connections" ..... do they hear this from others, or are they just making shit up lol
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dogcow
when people say things like "helium is backend scaling VPN connections" ..... do they hear this from others, or are they just making shit up lol
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/19/2022 11:08 AM
Helium specifically said vpn isn't looked at, let alone scaled. People make shit up, then it gets spread, soon people think it's true.
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it's not the first time I've read about the anti-VPN conspiracy and every time .... it's nonsense.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/19/2022 11:10 AM
Same for this conspiracy theory that 42 is somehow an attack on "great setups" to move rewards to crappy setups. Lol (edited)
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Yeah I don't think it's an attack on great setups. I think there are some great, legitimate setups with proper two-way communication that might be affected and that's worth looking into as the proposal is tweaked
11:13
But to say it's a deliberate wealth redistribution HIP is ridiculous
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/19/2022 11:13 AM
That's kind of the problem here. People have the wrong idea of what is actually a great setup.
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though I do think people vote in self-interest because HNT mining is a zero sum game, which feeds the wealth redistribution meme
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/19/2022 11:15 AM
Yeah, people focus on poc instead of what the network is actually for. Poc created this issue. :) (edited)
11:19
The other issue is we know there are active cheats on the discord, in these channels actively trying to disrupt any efforts that would affect them. Helium team knows who they are, but won't out them for various reasons. 😕
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dogcow
though I do think people vote in self-interest because HNT mining is a zero sum game, which feeds the wealth redistribution meme
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/19/2022 11:21 AM
The really funny thing is even if the meme were true, the amount of increase for current low earners would be so microscopic they would never even notice. lol
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The really funny thing is even if the meme were true, the amount of increase for current low earners would be so microscopic they would never even notice. lol
nah we need a ban china HIP to get a noticeable bump amirite
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dogcow
nah we need a ban china HIP to get a noticeable bump amirite
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/19/2022 11:29 AM
haha Yeah, not sure we'd see a bump, but 10% of the network is no small thing. When the denylist goes back up soon, it would be interesting to see the numbers. Someone made a few charts showing how much was being taken by cheating hotspots. Wasn't a small amount. I wonder if I can find them again. I think it was in either #data-analysis or #diy-packet-forwarder
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11:35
Funny timing... Looks like that very conversation is picking back up: https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/739678096487088229/933303000905166898
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
None of this is true
Exactly
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zzeddd
Pure fud
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/19/2022 1:01 PM
FUD gets views. Misleading people for profit. Oldest game in the book. 😉
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
haha Yeah, not sure we'd see a bump, but 10% of the network is no small thing. When the denylist goes back up soon, it would be interesting to see the numbers. Someone made a few charts showing how much was being taken by cheating hotspots. Wasn't a small amount. I wonder if I can find them again. I think it was in either #data-analysis or #diy-packet-forwarder
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
FUD gets views. Misleading people for profit. Oldest game in the book. 😉
Yeah true, quite sad
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Helium specifically said vpn isn't looked at, let alone scaled. People make shit up, then it gets spread, soon people think it's true.
Helium also specifically said there was no banlist. Sorry I know we should all move on but it had to be said 😄
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Parylizer
Helium also specifically said there was no banlist. Sorry I know we should all move on but it had to be said 😄
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/19/2022 2:17 PM
Completely fair point. 🙂
14:17
And i disagree. We should not move on from that. They have a lot of trust to re-build after pulling that.
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Parylizer
Helium also specifically said there was no banlist. Sorry I know we should all move on but it had to be said 😄
It's a blacklist, not a banlist Troll
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Silverhand
It's a blacklist, not a banlist Troll
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/19/2022 2:42 PM
Denylist actually 😉
14:43
(besides, blacklist is a racist term, so I try to avoid it 🙂 )
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
(besides, blacklist is a racist term, so I try to avoid it 🙂 )
wow, I write it next to the sexist term "male jack and female jack" so I don't forget it 😎
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Silverhand
wow, I write it next to the sexist term "male jack and female jack" so I don't forget it 😎
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/19/2022 2:55 PM
heh all the connector terminology is a bit awkward for sure. 🙂 Hell, don't even get me started on "Master" and "Slave" hard drives. 😅
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
heh all the connector terminology is a bit awkward for sure. 🙂 Hell, don't even get me started on "Master" and "Slave" hard drives. 😅
and why 0 is always off and 1 always on? this is also discriminatory coolcry
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Silverhand
and why 0 is always off and 1 always on? this is also discriminatory coolcry
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/19/2022 3:09 PM
Too many jokes, ands all of them would be violations of #rules lol
20:09
Yes
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Silverhand
and why 0 is always off and 1 always on? this is also discriminatory coolcry
how about 0+1 -> on and 0-1 -> off ?
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eigentech
The witness pattern of this hotspot looks so fake. Looks like if someone were hiding fake witnesses among real hotspots. How does it not hit any of the other hundred hotspots? I am just saying, that distribution looks unreal.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yes
Deleted User 01/20/2022 7:14 AM
Will that hotspot be black listed for being a clear scammer
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KeithR
The witness pattern of this hotspot looks so fake. Looks like if someone were hiding fake witnesses among real hotspots. How does it not hit any of the other hundred hotspots? I am just saying, that distribution looks unreal.
hotspotty gives a better picture. All those other units are offline
09:13
this might be a case of key cycling
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Deleted User
Will that hotspot be black listed for being a clear scammer
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/20/2022 10:58 AM
One would hope so. 🙂
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Deleted User
here is one of the hotspots in your link. do you see the beacon/witness ratio? that's how it will help. i support hip42 https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11CmztvXEZ7oMLo8kBVZC6m7CNeg36cM5tYMbPDHVoa6sHfri2S
That's another one where the witness locations just look fake; as if someone were trying to "make them look normal"!
15:44
They all look that way! Those location assertions have to be bullshit. Am I out of bounds here?
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KeithR
That's another one where the witness locations just look fake; as if someone were trying to "make them look normal"!
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/20/2022 4:03 PM
heh... look at the number of witnesses for each of their targets... exactly 19 for every one i checked. 100% cheat (edited)
16:05
Only beacons to their 19 other hotspots. heh
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
heh... look at the number of witnesses for each of their targets... exactly 19 for every one i checked. 100% cheat (edited)
I was trying to look at each one to be sure that they were witnessing the same locations on the map. But the map changes focus like three times as you switch hotspot. But the several times I did it, it looks like the same ones. So then yes, the distribution is fake.
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16:05
Fuckers.
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KeithR
The witness pattern of this hotspot looks so fake. Looks like if someone were hiding fake witnesses among real hotspots. How does it not hit any of the other hundred hotspots? I am just saying, that distribution looks unreal.
that was my impression as well. Maybe @Anthonyra take a look and give us some insight
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There has to be a way for a location to be confirmed...one that works in a trustless environment.
17:25
What about some kind of XRP mechanism? Distributed trust. Persons doing the confirmation are trusted because they are trusted by three people that were trusted who were trusted by three people that were trusted (and so on and so on) all the way back to Capcom being the first to confirm a location.
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Those do look really sus and HIP-42 would limit their earnings severely.. but it won’t “ban” them like the denylist would. They’ve talked about that with golden hotspots or anchor hotspots fwiw just the hardware needs more security to work well
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This group of hotspots seems like it could be discovered programmatically though. As ElonTusk noted, all the hotspots only witness each other. And despite being spread out over the town, they aren't being witnessed by any other hotspots. Seems like these hotspots could then be handed off to a group of PreCogs to decide if they are scammers are not (through various forms of investigation). We seem to all trust the Oracles and we don't know who they are. Why not create a similar group of people for this purpose?
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17:34
Or what about a class of hotspot owners that are willing to be anchor hotspots but in the form of secret shoppers. Confirmed really well placed hotspots that basically can be heard by nearly every hotspot because of let's say they are 100' up (says the guy putting his hotspot way up high in a tree on Saturday).
17:35
I would totally be willing to go through some serious KYC process to help the system be fair (as in catch cheaters).
17:40
Heck my 30 hotspots in 6 states would mean a lot of hotspots are only two hops away. No? (edited)
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KeithR
There has to be a way for a location to be confirmed...one that works in a trustless environment.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/20/2022 5:50 PM
HIP22
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KeithR
This group of hotspots seems like it could be discovered programmatically though. As ElonTusk noted, all the hotspots only witness each other. And despite being spread out over the town, they aren't being witnessed by any other hotspots. Seems like these hotspots could then be handed off to a group of PreCogs to decide if they are scammers are not (through various forms of investigation). We seem to all trust the Oracles and we don't know who they are. Why not create a similar group of people for this purpose?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/20/2022 5:52 PM
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KeithR
Or what about a class of hotspot owners that are willing to be anchor hotspots but in the form of secret shoppers. Confirmed really well placed hotspots that basically can be heard by nearly every hotspot because of let's say they are 100' up (says the guy putting his hotspot way up high in a tree on Saturday).
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/20/2022 6:00 PM
The issue is you still have to trust. Needs to be trustless 🙂 (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The issue is you still have to trust. Needs to be trustless 🙂 (edited)
I do get it. However, we also do trust the Oracles. And we have no idea who they are. (edited)
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Brainstormer 01/20/2022 8:35 PM
this hotspot, is it gaming? and will hip42 limit his witnessing? i tried putting the hotspot name in etl but doesn't come up https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11D46PPzxEpHZpikETGjNGsNXMzDjHLxRyecYRU797fUSecbntt/activity
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Certainly looks suspect. No beacons at all. Hearing hotspots in only one direction really; so maybe they are using a directional antenna (not an ideal setup). However, here is the view of the antenna's asserted location.
21:00
For some reason, I can't add an image.
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Brainstormer
this hotspot, is it gaming? and will hip42 limit his witnessing? i tried putting the hotspot name in etl but doesn't come up https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11D46PPzxEpHZpikETGjNGsNXMzDjHLxRyecYRU797fUSecbntt/activity
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/20/2022 9:03 PM
Likely gaming. 42 would definitely limit them with 0 witnesses.
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Since I can't seem to post an image in here; they are up in the mountains and they have a far away view of San Bernardino. So feasible. You would think they would witness the few hotspots that are in town, but maybe too hilly?
21:10
As I have complained before...there is no damn way this hotspot hears the dog collar, garden sensor, Lime bike, or Dor people-counter first. No way. This is not an ideal set up. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It blocks or heavily trims the "witness stuffing" exploit.
It also trims witnesses for legit hotspots with tremendous LOS over cities (towers, mountain sides, hilltops, high rises). We need HIP 40 for gaming. Not 42.
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Anthonyra
Those do look really sus and HIP-42 would limit their earnings severely.. but it won’t “ban” them like the denylist would. They’ve talked about that with golden hotspots or anchor hotspots fwiw just the hardware needs more security to work well
Seems almost like there is a concerted effort to disguise the real impact of HIP 42 by saying it will address gaming. Sure, it might, but we have HIP 40 coming and that will address gaming in a clear and forceful manner. HIP 42 will impact rewards of the best legit hotspots. Let's be clear about that.
facepalm 1
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For gaming , we need devices like mappers and gps. and pay rewards for found cheaters. USE the network against cheaters !! we are tired with HIP-odd job for cheaters
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pl
Seems almost like there is a concerted effort to disguise the real impact of HIP 42 by saying it will address gaming. Sure, it might, but we have HIP 40 coming and that will address gaming in a clear and forceful manner. HIP 42 will impact rewards of the best legit hotspots. Let's be clear about that.
I don’t like HIP-40 being a daily driver like most people want and expect. The code needs to govern itself and not have lists created by people (maybe code) do it. I support HIP-40 if we never have to use it. But it apparent we can’t just step aside and let current gamers loose. Also the reason you don’t think it’ll help is simply because they ended up on the black box list. There’s proof from countless individuals since the list removal of the exact thing this is meant to help protect against happening again
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Jose79
For gaming , we need devices like mappers and gps. and pay rewards for found cheaters. USE the network against cheaters !! we are tired with HIP-odd job for cheaters
Sure, but cheaters can buy mappers too and “falsely” claim their setup is legit. Devices are significantly cheaper then hotspots. HIP-22 wants to add more hardware security to shore up this fact but device verification is far from the answer today
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pl
It also trims witnesses for legit hotspots with tremendous LOS over cities (towers, mountain sides, hilltops, high rises). We need HIP 40 for gaming. Not 42.
If the blockchain can’t determine if a hotspot is beaconing.. I’d say that the hotspot has a problem or is purposely doing so for one reason or another. It’s not a great setup in regards to PoC.
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easymoneymike 01/21/2022 7:22 AM
What's the current status of hip-42, does it have enough votes to pass?
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Anthonyra
If the blockchain can’t determine if a hotspot is beaconing.. I’d say that the hotspot has a problem or is purposely doing so for one reason or another. It’s not a great setup in regards to PoC.
Not sure what you mean? Agree that a hotspot needs to beacon otherwise it’s a problem. The math of this hip works such that even if you beacon per network average, if you have such great LOS over a city with a super high witness counts you will still get clipped. The blockchain would be able to see this hotspots beaconing. The HIP doesn’t stop cheating. It just constrains max earnings for everyone, cheaters and legit hotspots. I am all for stopping cheating but why clip top end of a hotspots potential? The network should incentivize devices that can see huge areas of cities where all the sensors will be. Helium said itself you could cover a city with 200 devices. Well not if you encourage windowsill deployments. You’ll need way more than that if top earning sites can’t earn enough to pay rent and provide regular maintenance on a tower / mountain / hill top / high rise site.
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pl
Seems almost like there is a concerted effort to disguise the real impact of HIP 42 by saying it will address gaming. Sure, it might, but we have HIP 40 coming and that will address gaming in a clear and forceful manner. HIP 42 will impact rewards of the best legit hotspots. Let's be clear about that.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/21/2022 11:23 AM
That is 100% not true. Please quit spreading baseless conspiracies.
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easymoneymike
What's the current status of hip-42, does it have enough votes to pass?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/21/2022 11:24 AM
There was a "temperature check" vote that passed. That was just to see if there was enough support from the community for Anthonyra to begin the coding work.
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donp
Not sure what you mean? Agree that a hotspot needs to beacon otherwise it’s a problem. The math of this hip works such that even if you beacon per network average, if you have such great LOS over a city with a super high witness counts you will still get clipped. The blockchain would be able to see this hotspots beaconing. The HIP doesn’t stop cheating. It just constrains max earnings for everyone, cheaters and legit hotspots. I am all for stopping cheating but why clip top end of a hotspots potential? The network should incentivize devices that can see huge areas of cities where all the sensors will be. Helium said itself you could cover a city with 200 devices. Well not if you encourage windowsill deployments. You’ll need way more than that if top earning sites can’t earn enough to pay rent and provide regular maintenance on a tower / mountain / hill top / high rise site.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/21/2022 11:26 AM
This is not clipping healthy hotspots. 97% of the network already passes this HIP. Hotspots have to be set up for data, not for milking POC.
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Would you consider a mountain side / tower / hilltop installation over a city who beacons normally and who transfers data normally and who does NOT alter metadata a healthy one? Because I have a number of those and they all get clipped per the tool.
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donp
Would you consider a mountain side / tower / hilltop installation over a city who beacons normally and who transfers data normally and who does NOT alter metadata a healthy one? Because I have a number of those and they all get clipped per the tool.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/21/2022 11:32 AM
A healthy (for the network) hotspot has a balance of traffic both ways. This is required for a hotspot to be useful to the network.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
That is 100% not true. Please quit spreading baseless conspiracies.
Surprised this falls into the conspiracy camp. It’s just the way the math works. Yes many hotspots who will be clipped are gaming. But so are legit ones. Go get the gamers with hip 40.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/21/2022 11:32 AM
Forgive me if I asked before. Do you have a good example hotspot? 🙂
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donp
Surprised this falls into the conspiracy camp. It’s just the way the math works. Yes many hotspots who will be clipped are gaming. But so are legit ones. Go get the gamers with hip 40.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/21/2022 11:34 AM
The conspiracy bit I was talking about was the "Seems almost like there is a concerted effort to disguise the real impact of HIP 42 by saying it will address gaming". lol No one here is hiding anything. The goals are the stated ones. We're not Helium devs 😉
11:36
HIP40 was never built to be a catch-all for all gaming. It was to be a seldom used "panic button" for the worst of the worst that slipped through algorithm based anti-gaming methods. The denylist that was activated the other week kind of muddied the waters. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
This is not clipping healthy hotspots. 97% of the network already passes this HIP. Hotspots have to be set up for data, not for milking POC.
This is the point for sure..."hotspots are to be set up for data, not for milking PoC." 100%
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donp
Surprised this falls into the conspiracy camp. It’s just the way the math works. Yes many hotspots who will be clipped are gaming. But so are legit ones. Go get the gamers with hip 40.
Do you agree with the premise that an optimal setup for the lorawan network has some ratio of uplinks to downlinks? If so, you can always propose a new ratio instead of throwing the whole idea out
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I agree that there needs to be both uplinks and downlinks yes. But if you are beaconing out, transferring data, and not gaming I don’t see why your witnesses should be clipped. With respect to Mr Tusks question about a hotspot example, I am hesitant to share the names of my hotspots. When I get to a computer I will see if I can find some examples on explorer. Forgive me I am not a CLI or SQL guy so my access to data is limited. A higher ratio might help. Just advocating to avoid clipping the best legit hotspots while preserving the environment, letting the network grow and ensuring the people deploying it can be successful.
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donp
I agree that there needs to be both uplinks and downlinks yes. But if you are beaconing out, transferring data, and not gaming I don’t see why your witnesses should be clipped. With respect to Mr Tusks question about a hotspot example, I am hesitant to share the names of my hotspots. When I get to a computer I will see if I can find some examples on explorer. Forgive me I am not a CLI or SQL guy so my access to data is limited. A higher ratio might help. Just advocating to avoid clipping the best legit hotspots while preserving the environment, letting the network grow and ensuring the people deploying it can be successful.
Understood. So try the HIP equation using a ratio that meets your objective and I think we could have a pretty good discussion going. I hear a lot of "this HIP is bad because I might get clipped so its stupid" when we should be talking whether we agree with the premise and then from there, settle on a ratio. The author did a hell of an amount of research on this and landed with a ratio that he felt appropriate. I would love to see others look at different ratios and why that ratio is better 🙂
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Custom50ford 01/21/2022 4:02 PM
Hey @ElonTusk | 5Gchipped looks like we didn't have to wait too long for a miner to stop beaconing for DAYS... have one that hasn't sent a beacon since the 17th and all challenges issued during that time have resulted in a 0 witness beacon. 5d Witness count down to 35, 7d Beacons still 450+ (edited)
16:02
nothing has changed in the setup
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Custom50ford
Hey @ElonTusk | 5Gchipped looks like we didn't have to wait too long for a miner to stop beaconing for DAYS... have one that hasn't sent a beacon since the 17th and all challenges issued during that time have resulted in a 0 witness beacon. 5d Witness count down to 35, 7d Beacons still 450+ (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/21/2022 4:10 PM
Cool. What's the link? I'd like to look at it. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Cool. What's the link? I'd like to look at it. 🙂
I don't think you should bother. The solution to this problem is already baked into the HIP. It won't be done until after lightweight hotspots and at that time not beaconing will no longing be the network's fault and clogging the SD card with giant doom blocks in the blockchain won't be on the hotspots either. (edited)
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KeithR
I don't think you should bother. The solution to this problem is already baked into the HIP. It won't be done until after lightweight hotspots and at that time not beaconing will no longing be the network's fault and clogging the SD card with giant doom blocks in the blockchain won't be on the hotspots either. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/21/2022 5:29 PM
Looks like a upnp issue messing with the ports (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Looks like a upnp issue messing with the ports (edited)
There you go...so it is the install. The HIP has been successful in getting an installation closer to the ideal set up.
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This hip is only to benefit the hotpost that's lucky enough to send beacon 4-5 times a day on average. But definitely not to the hotspot that is unlucky enough to only send beacon once a day or maynot even send any beacon in a day. Don't just look at the place where helium hotspot is too concentrated. Some places may not be as lucky enough as you guys with hotspots that got challenged enough in a day so yours can send beacons. Many people are struggling to check their hotspots until today and wondering why their hotspots won't even sending any beacon in a day or two. This happens. And don't say this is just a small number. Whatever the number is, either big or small, aren't all part of what you guys called "THE PEOPLES NETWORK"???
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ubi
This hip is only to benefit the hotpost that's lucky enough to send beacon 4-5 times a day on average. But definitely not to the hotspot that is unlucky enough to only send beacon once a day or maynot even send any beacon in a day. Don't just look at the place where helium hotspot is too concentrated. Some places may not be as lucky enough as you guys with hotspots that got challenged enough in a day so yours can send beacons. Many people are struggling to check their hotspots until today and wondering why their hotspots won't even sending any beacon in a day or two. This happens. And don't say this is just a small number. Whatever the number is, either big or small, aren't all part of what you guys called "THE PEOPLES NETWORK"???
Once again, the solution to the problem you are describing is already baked into the build out of this HIP. So there is no reason to complain about it any more. (edited)
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ubi
This hip is only to benefit the hotpost that's lucky enough to send beacon 4-5 times a day on average. But definitely not to the hotspot that is unlucky enough to only send beacon once a day or maynot even send any beacon in a day. Don't just look at the place where helium hotspot is too concentrated. Some places may not be as lucky enough as you guys with hotspots that got challenged enough in a day so yours can send beacons. Many people are struggling to check their hotspots until today and wondering why their hotspots won't even sending any beacon in a day or two. This happens. And don't say this is just a small number. Whatever the number is, either big or small, aren't all part of what you guys called "THE PEOPLES NETWORK"???
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/21/2022 6:10 PM
Your location doesn't have anything to do with how much you beacon (the bug where you beacon way too much being the obvious exception).
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KeithR
Once again, the solution to the problem you are describing is already baked into the build out of this HIP. So there is no reason to complain about it any more. (edited)
u mean the min limit of 2 beacons? Or which solution?
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KeithR
There you go...so it is the install. The HIP has been successful in getting an installation closer to the ideal set up.
Custom50ford 01/21/2022 6:15 PM
Actually, the install was done correctly. IDK why upnp got turned on and is messing with my settings. In fact, I just checked another router and found that all the firewall rules have been removed (i.e. return to factory) and upnp is back on. And, I just talked to a buddy who had the same thing happen to his router in the last week or so. At any rate - thanks to @ElonTusk | 5Gchipped for taking a couple seconds to help someone out. So, it looks like some funny router business is going on. (edited)
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ubi
u mean the min limit of 2 beacons? Or which solution?
Lightweight hotspots will beacon on their own (presumably with the validator pool enforcing the no more than once per n minutes to enforce no more than y times a day). (edited)
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KeithR
Lightweight hotspots will beacon on their own (presumably with the validator pool enforcing the no more than once per n minutes to enforce no more than y times a day). (edited)
it would be interesting to see if these zero beacon still gonna happen again with light hotspot. As what happen now even with the good and correct setup, for some unknown reason these hotspots just won't send/issue any beacon. Somehow they are just unlucky enough (as no other logical explanation so far)
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Custom50ford
Actually, the install was done correctly. IDK why upnp got turned on and is messing with my settings. In fact, I just checked another router and found that all the firewall rules have been removed (i.e. return to factory) and upnp is back on. And, I just talked to a buddy who had the same thing happen to his router in the last week or so. At any rate - thanks to @ElonTusk | 5Gchipped for taking a couple seconds to help someone out. So, it looks like some funny router business is going on. (edited)
The spirit of the HIP is to curtail rewards for less than ideal set ups so as to drive the owner of the hotspot to fix it or seek assistance to do so. Clearly you were not cheating; but whatever happened caused your set up to be less than ideal. The HIP would have worked as intended in your case.
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Custom50ford
Actually, the install was done correctly. IDK why upnp got turned on and is messing with my settings. In fact, I just checked another router and found that all the firewall rules have been removed (i.e. return to factory) and upnp is back on. And, I just talked to a buddy who had the same thing happen to his router in the last week or so. At any rate - thanks to @ElonTusk | 5Gchipped for taking a couple seconds to help someone out. So, it looks like some funny router business is going on. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/21/2022 6:21 PM
Glad to help 🙂
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ubi
it would be interesting to see if these zero beacon still gonna happen again with light hotspot. As what happen now even with the good and correct setup, for some unknown reason these hotspots just won't send/issue any beacon. Somehow they are just unlucky enough (as no other logical explanation so far)
I have a hotspot that does not beacon ever. No one has been able to help figure out what its issue is. The next time I visit it (it is 900+ miles away), I am just going to replace it with another one. The only remaining hypothesis at this time is that it is because Nebra is a shitty manufacturer. (edited)
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ubi
it would be interesting to see if these zero beacon still gonna happen again with light hotspot. As what happen now even with the good and correct setup, for some unknown reason these hotspots just won't send/issue any beacon. Somehow they are just unlucky enough (as no other logical explanation so far)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/21/2022 6:22 PM
It's not "luck". There are reasons for not beaconing.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It's not "luck". There are reasons for not beaconing.
Any chance you have a list of those reasons so that I can run down it again with my recalcitrant hotspot?
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KeithR
I have a hotspot that does not beacon ever. No one has been able to help figure out what its issue is. The next time I visit it (it is 900+ miles away), I am just going to replace it with another one. The only remaining hypothesis at this time is that it is because Nebra is a shitty manufacturer. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/21/2022 6:23 PM
oof.. damn nebra. Yeah, could be the hardware. 😦
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KeithR
Any chance you have a list of those reasons so that I can run down it again with my recalcitrant hotspot?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/21/2022 6:24 PM
Honestly I'm not the best at diagnosing network issues. I just run them through stuff like the Helium Hiker discord bot and https://app.heliumstatus.io/ and go from there.
Check & monitor the status of your Helium hotspot live
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heliumstatus.io usually says "i am a pro"...but zero beacons, always. We turned it off for a week to let any bad gossip data clear out. Just turned it back on today. Now I will wait over the weekend to see what happens.
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KeithR
heliumstatus.io usually says "i am a pro"...but zero beacons, always. We turned it off for a week to let any bad gossip data clear out. Just turned it back on today. Now I will wait over the weekend to see what happens.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/21/2022 6:29 PM
heh yeah, that "pro" thing can be a little off at times. "You're a pro!" "Ummm then why isn't my hotspot working?"
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18:29
lol
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shadowmeree 01/21/2022 6:34 PM
How do u tell it's a upnp issue? Port/listen address changing?
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shadowmeree
How do u tell it's a upnp issue? Port/listen address changing?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/21/2022 6:36 PM
I notice things like a port close to 44158 being used, like 44159, yeah.
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@KeithR and @ElonTusk | 5Gchipped thank you for the continued help in this channel and I’d agree that the HIP even still in draft is doing what it’s intended to do 😅 (edited)
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Anthonyra
@KeithR and @ElonTusk | 5Gchipped thank you for the continued help in this channel and I’d agree that the HIP even still in draft is doing what it’s intended to do 😅 (edited)
so when are we expecting hip42 to be implemented (edited)
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Anthonyra
@KeithR and @ElonTusk | 5Gchipped thank you for the continued help in this channel and I’d agree that the HIP even still in draft is doing what it’s intended to do 😅 (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/22/2022 11:28 AM
NP :)
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I have noticed one of the hex’s I’m in which now has 6 other hotspots has now changed my transmit scale to 1.0 from 0.4. The other miners have no change. Is this to do with the update? Rewards have increased also .
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GG12345
I have noticed one of the hex’s I’m in which now has 6 other hotspots has now changed my transmit scale to 1.0 from 0.4. The other miners have no change. Is this to do with the update? Rewards have increased also .
wrong channel.
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Father Shark 😎 01/24/2022 1:25 PM
So I know theoretically every hotspot should be sending out a Beacon every 240 blocks 300 blocks whatever but my miner consistently goes days without getting challenged so how will the network deal with that if hip 42 goes into effect
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Father Shark 😎
So I know theoretically every hotspot should be sending out a Beacon every 240 blocks 300 blocks whatever but my miner consistently goes days without getting challenged so how will the network deal with that if hip 42 goes into effect
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/24/2022 2:08 PM
That's an average, not "it's been X blocks. Time to Beacon!"
14:11
And the current setting for the HIP take that into account.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
And the current setting for the HIP take that into account.
Father Shark 😎 01/24/2022 2:19 PM
I think I understand the hip and how challenges work but what I'm saying is that I witnesses beacons pretty much every hour but I haven't sent a beacon in over a week right now. Won't that cause me to be deny listed?
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Father Shark 😎
I think I understand the hip and how challenges work but what I'm saying is that I witnesses beacons pretty much every hour but I haven't sent a beacon in over a week right now. Won't that cause me to be deny listed?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/24/2022 2:20 PM
This is different than the denylist ( #hip-40-validator-denylist )
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Father Shark 😎
I think I understand the hip and how challenges work but what I'm saying is that I witnesses beacons pretty much every hour but I haven't sent a beacon in over a week right now. Won't that cause me to be deny listed?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/24/2022 2:21 PM
You can check your hotspot here for HIp42: https://etl.dewi.org/question/461-poc-witness-scaling-hip-42
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Father Shark 😎
I think I understand the hip and how challenges work but what I'm saying is that I witnesses beacons pretty much every hour but I haven't sent a beacon in over a week right now. Won't that cause me to be deny listed?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/24/2022 2:21 PM
If you're not beaconing, sounds like there is something wrong with your setup.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
If you're not beaconing, sounds like there is something wrong with your setup.
Father Shark 😎 01/24/2022 2:23 PM
Thanks for link. What could the problem be? I was doing fine until the 1-13 firmware update
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Um, did Helium just fuck over this HIP? "The new witnessed list shows the Hotspots that you've seen beacon (i.e. Hotspots you've witnessed) instead of Hotspots that have seen you."
14:24
Really downplaying the difference between beacons and witnesses in their announcement.
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Father Shark 😎
Thanks for link. What could the problem be? I was doing fine until the 1-13 firmware update
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/24/2022 2:25 PM
Could be many things.
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KeithR
Really downplaying the difference between beacons and witnesses in their announcement.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/24/2022 2:25 PM
Seems more like a clarification rather than downplaying.
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Where is the measure of downlinks though? If the witness list is now how many hotspots I have heard, that only measures the uplink portion. The beacon list is only the witness receipts; right? So where is the metric for indicating how well my hotspot is providing downlinks?
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Carl-bot BOT 01/24/2022 2:54 PM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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KeithR
Where is the measure of downlinks though? If the witness list is now how many hotspots I have heard, that only measures the uplink portion. The beacon list is only the witness receipts; right? So where is the metric for indicating how well my hotspot is providing downlinks?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/24/2022 3:00 PM
They should have both.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
They should have both.
Not sure how you are answering my question. Prior to this change you could use the witnessed count and the beacon count to have some indicator of uplinks (witnessing) and downlinks (broadcasting). I don't see that now.
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KeithR
Not sure how you are answering my question. Prior to this change you could use the witnessed count and the beacon count to have some indicator of uplinks (witnessing) and downlinks (broadcasting). I don't see that now.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/24/2022 3:03 PM
I was agreeing with you. They should have both tabs, Witnesses and Witnessed. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I was agreeing with you. They should have both tabs, Witnesses and Witnessed. 🙂
Agreed, just showing witnessed is not any better. Being able to visualize both would be good.
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Parylizer
Agreed, just showing witnessed is not any better. Being able to visualize both would be good.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/24/2022 3:09 PM
I think they were trying to change the usual "I have so many witnesses! Why are my earnings so low??"
15:09
Trying to highlight the real main source of rewards.
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But interestingly, that undermines the idea we have been trying to push here in this HIP; the definition of "ideal setup". The explorer interface is now going to tell you only how well you are exploiting proof-of-coverage. That is disappointing to me. (edited)
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shadowmeree 01/24/2022 4:25 PM
Exactly. The mechanic introduced in this hip is unintuitive at best and opaque at worst, for the majority who would just be looking at explorer or even sites like helium tracker
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shadowmeree
Exactly. The mechanic introduced in this hip is unintuitive at best and opaque at worst, for the majority who would just be looking at explorer or even sites like helium tracker
Or they could have had the explorer interface make smarter users by clearly showing metrics that display your hotspot's uplink capabilities and downlink capabilties. (edited)
16:31
So what does the explorer tell me now? Total witnessed = 151. 7d average Beacons = 376. I heard 151 unique other hotspots in the last 5 days but I heard a total of 376 hotspots (obviously some more than once) in the last 7 days? (edited)
16:34
So when I beacon every 6 hours, what number will be affected? Is the only way I know that I beaconed and got zero witnesses is if I look in the Activity tab and view more details on the beacon record? (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Trying to highlight the real main source of rewards.
Yeah it definitely was all about showing representation of rewards. Which is really dumb. We should be focusing on helping people build good proper setups with both downlink and uplink just like this HIP is trying to do. Now there is no clear way to see who witnesses you so now we have no idea if our setup is good or not other than receiving beacons. This change does not make any sense lol
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16:43
and we essentially already did show this information with the beacons number on the left. Now it just also shows how many of those beacons are unique. Seems like more redundant info while removing valuable information.
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Agree. It feeds the tiny conspiracy part of my brain...are they letting the cheaters get away with it intentionally? This interface change makes no sense other than obfuscate why your set up sucks. I can't think of who this helps. Even the super stupid are not helped by this.
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KeithR
So what does the explorer tell me now? Total witnessed = 151. 7d average Beacons = 376. I heard 151 unique other hotspots in the last 5 days but I heard a total of 376 hotspots (obviously some more than once) in the last 7 days? (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/24/2022 4:52 PM
The Beacons number is very misleading. It's your beacons + your witnessing events.
16:54
All this should be in the #explorer channel
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It's not "luck". There are reasons for not beaconing.
I'd love assistance on mine not beaconing regularly- and hence, being impacted by this HIP. I've shared all my data with @Anthonyra and we were trying to work through things- then he went radio silent... As it sits my issue is I don't beacon regularly... I had a day a week ago where I beaconed 4 times in a day, then the next 3 times- and now no beacons for several days- granted I was offline and synching for about 20 hours, but all in all, I am lucky to get one beacon every other day. (edited)
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BadTrader
I'd love assistance on mine not beaconing regularly- and hence, being impacted by this HIP. I've shared all my data with @Anthonyra and we were trying to work through things- then he went radio silent... As it sits my issue is I don't beacon regularly... I had a day a week ago where I beaconed 4 times in a day, then the next 3 times- and now no beacons for several days- granted I was offline and synching for about 20 hours, but all in all, I am lucky to get one beacon every other day. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/24/2022 5:08 PM
hmm... what was the hotspot name?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The Beacons number is very misleading. It's your beacons + your witnessing events.
So in my example above, that means I am hearing 225 hotspots. 151 to 225 seems a good ratio given how high my set up is in my tree (I live in the boonies that are a tad hilly).
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KeithR
So in my example above, that means I am hearing 225 hotspots. 151 to 225 seems a good ratio given how high my set up is in my tree (I live in the boonies that are a tad hilly).
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/24/2022 8:16 PM
Well that's a 5 day vs a 7 day... (no idea why they do that...)
20:17
Be easier just to use https://helium.hiker.rocks/ and see what the actual numbers are. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Well that's a 5 day vs a 7 day... (no idea why they do that...)
thank you for that reminder. That is not helpful either is it.
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Father Shark 😎
I think I understand the hip and how challenges work but what I'm saying is that I witnesses beacons pretty much every hour but I haven't sent a beacon in over a week right now. Won't that cause me to be deny listed?
To clarify and I tried my best to explain this in the HIP, the 360 blocks poc_challenge_interval is how often your hotspot tries to create a challenge. There's multiple reasons why one might miss this window but it's a check performed every block so eventually it'll create a challenge after those many blocks. This however, isn't saying that your hotspot will beacon at this interval. "If you had two hotspots on the network and they both try to create challenges at this interval then they should also beacon at that interval." It's a proxy since there's no guaranteed minimum beacon number. There is however a max 4 that's based on an IP bloom filter and an average based on the data on chain 2.4 (edited)
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KeithR
But interestingly, that undermines the idea we have been trying to push here in this HIP; the definition of "ideal setup". The explorer interface is now going to tell you only how well you are exploiting proof-of-coverage. That is disappointing to me. (edited)
I just read the announcement with a fresh cup of coffee.. and I would agree 💯 it "shows" the community the opposite of what HIP-42 intentions are...
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Anthonyra
To clarify and I tried my best to explain this in the HIP, the 360 blocks poc_challenge_interval is how often your hotspot tries to create a challenge. There's multiple reasons why one might miss this window but it's a check performed every block so eventually it'll create a challenge after those many blocks. This however, isn't saying that your hotspot will beacon at this interval. "If you had two hotspots on the network and they both try to create challenges at this interval then they should also beacon at that interval." It's a proxy since there's no guaranteed minimum beacon number. There is however a max 4 that's based on an IP bloom filter and an average based on the data on chain 2.4 (edited)
Father Shark 😎 01/25/2022 6:37 AM
The thing that concerns me I guess is that if I never (or rarely) send a beacon my beacon to witness ratio will be zero or extremely low. How will that effect my earnings
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Well, when performing the data dive for this HIP I looked over the entire network. 97% of the hotspots already meet the requirements to not be effected by this HIP. Those who are fall under two camps usually. 1) there's an issue with the setup 2) potentially gaming. That's why the wits list is the sum of all witnesses from beacons over 5 days. To ensure that there's an adequate amount of data to prove "healthiness".. now while drafting up the code portion of this HIP. I also realized that I want to include another metric when a hotspot beacons. I want to record the total number of witnesses for a beacon before it's limited to 18 and randomized. For, example what if you beaconed and 60 hotspots witnessed it? Right now, you'd only really see that over a long enough period of time. I want to record this new metric each beacon and use it to add even more fined tuned judgement in any algorithm used. It appears there's a HIP for part of this #hip-50-display-all-witnesses (edited)
06:44
I say usually but there is indeed some luck to it all since randomness is used in almost every stage of the PoC process to make it harder to game. Hence, my want to add this new metric to beacons. To see how much 1 beacon sees so even if you only beacon once in 5 days it'll make sure to not affect you but in reality if you beacon once every 5 days it really does sound like there's an issue just based on the data
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Anthonyra
I say usually but there is indeed some luck to it all since randomness is used in almost every stage of the PoC process to make it harder to game. Hence, my want to add this new metric to beacons. To see how much 1 beacon sees so even if you only beacon once in 5 days it'll make sure to not affect you but in reality if you beacon once every 5 days it really does sound like there's an issue just based on the data
Father Shark 😎 01/25/2022 7:03 AM
I know its way off topic but any ideas on a setup problem that could cause a lack of beacons? Everything was fine and earning above the network average until the 1-13 firmware update
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@BadTrader and I was troubleshooting his setup and I think they are prime example that there's a lot under the hood. There's a couple things I can think of that would cause the hotspot not to beacon. 1) the local network doesn't allow inbound connections (port 44158 isn't open and or upnp is enabled) 2) the hotspot is falling out of sync by more then 250 at times and then catches up 3) seed nodes are having a hard time maintaining gossip information "live" so if your IP changes or relay status changes the network doesn't know about it for a very long time 4) you're located in a hex with a lot of hotspots since the targeting is based on hex and then randomly picks a hotspot from that hex
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Anthonyra
Well, when performing the data dive for this HIP I looked over the entire network. 97% of the hotspots already meet the requirements to not be effected by this HIP. Those who are fall under two camps usually. 1) there's an issue with the setup 2) potentially gaming. That's why the wits list is the sum of all witnesses from beacons over 5 days. To ensure that there's an adequate amount of data to prove "healthiness".. now while drafting up the code portion of this HIP. I also realized that I want to include another metric when a hotspot beacons. I want to record the total number of witnesses for a beacon before it's limited to 18 and randomized. For, example what if you beaconed and 60 hotspots witnessed it? Right now, you'd only really see that over a long enough period of time. I want to record this new metric each beacon and use it to add even more fined tuned judgement in any algorithm used. It appears there's a HIP for part of this #hip-50-display-all-witnesses (edited)
There are 15,000 to 20,000 hotspots in that 3% and if they are gaming then they should be captured via hip 40. Yes I am sure some have a poor network setup. Many of the remaining hotspots however are legit hotspots run by real people who have secured tremendous locations with the best LOS views to entire metro areas who will have their earnings clipped when all they are trying to do is provide the best coverage possible, pay rent, service their hotspots (which go down frequently), and maybe eek out a small return to pay themselves.
facepalm 1
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With respect to the display all witnesses idea, is the thought to use that number in the ratio instead of whatever the number would be otherwise if based on the cap of 18 witnesses per beacon?
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donp
With respect to the display all witnesses idea, is the thought to use that number in the ratio instead of whatever the number would be otherwise if based on the cap of 18 witnesses per beacon?
The idea would be a checks and balance or depending on how it looks maybe a complete alternative to the 5 day wits list
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I want to think some more about this, but at first glance, it seems like using all potential witnesses in the ratio (and not actual witnesses that were artificially capped at 18) would help address concerns about clipping the best located legit hotspots in the network. There remain other concerns of course, but I do appreciate your thinking on this point.
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Many people who share an IP (such as in a university or corporate campus environment) will look to VPNs to solve relay status and beacon rate issues otherwise this hip will still crush them. Also people who need static IPs or patrons trying to improve security and have the ability for remote power cycling are already using VPNs. I think we still need someone official from the helium team to comment on the greylist / backend scaling question for VPN setups. I have not heard anyone from Helium say definitively that VPNs are not backend scaled. I’ve tested the same hotspots with same antenna and location and same everything else on and off VPN, and in every instance the rewards are lower when on VPN. I know others have reported the same thing. This should be addressed clearly by Helium. @proslasher hope you don’t mind the tag but I know this is an important issue for you too.
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donp
Many people who share an IP (such as in a university or corporate campus environment) will look to VPNs to solve relay status and beacon rate issues otherwise this hip will still crush them. Also people who need static IPs or patrons trying to improve security and have the ability for remote power cycling are already using VPNs. I think we still need someone official from the helium team to comment on the greylist / backend scaling question for VPN setups. I have not heard anyone from Helium say definitively that VPNs are not backend scaled. I’ve tested the same hotspots with same antenna and location and same everything else on and off VPN, and in every instance the rewards are lower when on VPN. I know others have reported the same thing. This should be addressed clearly by Helium. @proslasher hope you don’t mind the tag but I know this is an important issue for you too.
VPN's are not currently scaled - Capcom actually did say this
💯 1
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Where / when?
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Anthonyra
@BadTrader and I was troubleshooting his setup and I think they are prime example that there's a lot under the hood. There's a couple things I can think of that would cause the hotspot not to beacon. 1) the local network doesn't allow inbound connections (port 44158 isn't open and or upnp is enabled) 2) the hotspot is falling out of sync by more then 250 at times and then catches up 3) seed nodes are having a hard time maintaining gossip information "live" so if your IP changes or relay status changes the network doesn't know about it for a very long time 4) you're located in a hex with a lot of hotspots since the targeting is based on hex and then randomly picks a hotspot from that hex
captainhindsight 01/25/2022 10:18 AM
None of these apply to me.
10:18
Yet I can go days without beaconing and then, today, two within the space of five minutes
10:19
When you say hex is targeted first - which scale hex do you mean? (I might be misinterpreting that bit / assuming it's a RES8 hex)
10:19
I haven't seen my miners blocked or reduced on VPN either (edited)
10:19
I do see some that are syncing slowly to validators
10:20
that seems to be a major problem
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Okay I just looked at the link. He is clearly saying vpn won’t get you on the deny list but doesn’t really address backend scaling. I still think there is clarity required on that from Helium Inc.
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I'm not from Helium Inc but I am 80% certain that's not the case. What I am seeing is some of my IPs slowly sync to validators (check #blockchain-development for my post)
10:25
depending on which validator they're fed
10:25
is it possible someone is running a rogue validator? Absolutely.
10:26
Could validators have their own deny lists? I suppose so.
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Why do you guys keep mentioning that this HIP will affect rewards for multiple miners with shared IP address? Is there something in the code related to blocking multiple miners on same IP address? Or is it the result of having relayed status that will affect rewards?
12:11
Relayed status for miner2,3,4? Miner 1 is ok since it is NOT relayed.
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Hotspots on shared IPs split beacons between them. Someone smarter than I can tell you where exactly it came from but as understand it’s genesis was to stop an early gaming exploit.
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proslasher
VPN's are not currently scaled - Capcom actually did say this
Yeah I call BS on this though. I can't say exactly what is going on but I have seen earnings drop to half once on a VPN, this happens without fail 100% of the time. Using multiple units in various locations and with a few different VPN providers. Every time the earnings drop on VPN.
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proslasher
I haven't seen my miners blocked or reduced on VPN either (edited)
can I ask what VPN you use?
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Parylizer
Yeah I call BS on this though. I can't say exactly what is going on but I have seen earnings drop to half once on a VPN, this happens without fail 100% of the time. Using multiple units in various locations and with a few different VPN providers. Every time the earnings drop on VPN.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/25/2022 3:40 PM
Correlation does not equal causation.
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shadowmeree 01/25/2022 3:41 PM
https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11Ug9mYrWW5bAk5t1BPXoA9gcLKLk4VpnYAyUWbz3bLM6ttJWgh/activity Real life example of a decidedly non-gaming hotspot whose recent sent beacons have inexplicably become 0 witnesses for the most part. If things don't improve the 5d witness list (which I can't even see anymore thanks to explorer changes) is gonna drop from 10 to 1 :(
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Carl-bot BOT 01/25/2022 3:41 PM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Correlation does not equal causation.
This is more than correlation. I can turn on VPN earnings drop. Turn off VPN, earnings increase. It is 100% without a doubt due to the VPN. I am not saying they are blocking VPN's, I am saying something to do with VPN's is definitely affecting earnings. It could be routing related etc. I don't know. (edited)
15:44
Or I should say affecting the units ability to submit POC
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Parylizer
This is more than correlation. I can turn on VPN earnings drop. Turn off VPN, earnings increase. It is 100% without a doubt due to the VPN. I am not saying they are blocking VPN's, I am saying something to do with VPN's is definitely affecting earnings. It could be routing related etc. I don't know. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/25/2022 3:45 PM
fair enough. There appears to be an effect, but nothing pointing to some sort of throttling on the part of Helium. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
fair enough. There appears to be an effect, but nothing pointing to some sort of throttling on the part of Helium. 🙂
Right, I can't say for sure that it has anything to do with helium itself blocking/filtering/throttling. I have tried multiple VPN providers though one of which is my own servers in azure where I have also tested multiple different locations and data centers. The same result happens on them all. It's strange I admit, i've been trying to narrow down what is going on for a month now 😫
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Parylizer
Right, I can't say for sure that it has anything to do with helium itself blocking/filtering/throttling. I have tried multiple VPN providers though one of which is my own servers in azure where I have also tested multiple different locations and data centers. The same result happens on them all. It's strange I admit, i've been trying to narrow down what is going on for a month now 😫
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/25/2022 3:50 PM
Same VPN on all of them? Perhaps it's something about that particular service?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Same VPN on all of them? Perhaps it's something about that particular service?
No as mentioned, I have tried multiple providers and servers
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Parylizer
No as mentioned, I have tried multiple providers and servers
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/25/2022 3:53 PM
ah missed that 🙂
15:53
weird...
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Azure is the service I have tested the most which I believe is what proslasher uses, so that is interesting they haven't noticed a difference being on VPN (edited)
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Parylizer
can I ask what VPN you use?
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Parylizer
Azure is the service I have tested the most which I believe is what proslasher uses, so that is interesting they haven't noticed a difference being on VPN (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/25/2022 3:53 PM
Pro is in AU and you're in the US, or..?
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So I run my own. US.
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proslasher
So all in Azure?
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It's complicated. Some are in azure, some are in another technology. I won't talk about the other due to working for Azure lmao.
15:55
But yes, some of my deployments are in different environments depending on the person.
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proslasher
It's complicated. Some are in azure, some are in another technology. I won't talk about the other due to working for Azure lmao.
Ok and you haven't' seen lower earnings using azure as the host?
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Nope. Let me guess, it's a Rak?
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Nope sensecap
15:55
and not just one lol
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Do me a favor and run a tcpdump
15:55
On each
15:55
Look for any retransmissions
15:56
Or dropped packets.
15:56
Grab the ips and DM them to me. Look in #blockchain-development for my screenshots
15:56
You can do this on the VPN host directly or the pi.
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do you have the command specifically that i should run? and do you mean on the units or on the VPN server
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Either. And if you don't know the tcpdump command I don't have it handy.
15:57
Just dump every and then load it in Wireshark
15:57
Either way, ElonTusk is right, correlation is not causation here.
15:58
I have a Rak that's been down for 18 days. I'm going to go over and ssh in to it shortly to see why.
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proslasher
Either way, ElonTusk is right, correlation is not causation here.
It is when I can create the result 100% of the time by changing a single variable. This isn't something that happens "sometimes".
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proslasher
Either. And if you don't know the tcpdump command I don't have it handy.
Ok ill find it
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Parylizer
It is when I can create the result 100% of the time by changing a single variable. This isn't something that happens "sometimes".
One of your peers could be slow and the routes to that peer from your server are screwed. No idea why this is happening. Alternatively, what percent is your SD card at?
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proslasher
One of your peers could be slow and the routes to that peer from your server are screwed. No idea why this is happening. Alternatively, what percent is your SD card at?
kind of what I was thinking. not sure what I can do to fix that though. Umm, the one im running the tcpdump on right now is at 37%. I have tried clearing miner data and starting fresh.
16:08
Do you run your vpn's with UDP or TCP?
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I use OpenVPN.
16:12
So both really.
16:13
Haven't considered checking that though on the affected hotspots.
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proslasher
So both really.
In the configuration you select the protocol though, it cant do both at the same time
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I don't do anything more than default so it uses 1194 first then falls back if it needs to, right?
16:19
I'm not an expert surprisingly
16:19
So that's a legit question. :)
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Yeah that sounds about right. So UDP first then TCP as fallback. I've been curious if using one is better than the other. I started testing that yesterday so not enough data for any conclusion but so far no difference lol.
16:24
So I am seeing some retransmissions, i'm no expert either, is any retransmission a bad sign? (edited)
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The quick and dirty fix is to rotate your public IP.
16:25
Retransmissions mean the packet failed
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ok
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What port are they on and to which IP?
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Looking at one now and it was port 44158 to ip 71.126.72.50
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Try nc 71.126.... 44158
16:26
Use that IP
16:26
See if it comes back after a delay with /multistream
16:26
It should be near instant not seconds
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Hi guys I have been up and running for over 2 months now and unable to witness any beacons I only witnessed once in the past 2 weeks I am able to creat challenges and send beacons but not witnessing beacons I have 10 witnesses on my list everyone around me seems to not be having this issue everything. I just have upgraded my antenna and moved to the rooftop the bobcat. Wha could be the reason?
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proslasher
It should be near instant not seconds
seemed to be pretty instant
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Look for more. Especially on port 2154
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Ok what is port 2154
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Usually a seed node from my understanding
16:28
But could be other things
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OK ill look for that
16:29
If you don't mind sharing, which azure DC's do you use that don't have issues? Wonder if peering/routing on the ones ive tried just suck for helium
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You're Looking for lots of retransmissions, not just one of two
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Parylizer
If you don't mind sharing, which azure DC's do you use that don't have issues? Wonder if peering/routing on the ones ive tried just suck for helium
All over. I have deployments in all regions that are fine, only like 5% randomly are doing this
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Kpi
Hi guys I have been up and running for over 2 months now and unable to witness any beacons I only witnessed once in the past 2 weeks I am able to creat challenges and send beacons but not witnessing beacons I have 10 witnesses on my list everyone around me seems to not be having this issue everything. I just have upgraded my antenna and moved to the rooftop the bobcat. Wha could be the reason?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/25/2022 4:30 PM
#hotspot-help Is the channel that can help you. 🙂
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Well all us regions
16:30
I need to double check. I may not be in East 1
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Ok, so far i've tried US west. US west 2, and US central since I get best ping there
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Any ping thats less than 250 is fine
16:33
180 if you're really paranoid.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/25/2022 4:45 PM
Looked away for a bit. Did you guys figure out what's up with the VPN?
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I am certain it's nothing up with the VPN per se
16:53
I have multiple that are doing just fine
16:53
Multiple as in 95%+
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/25/2022 4:55 PM
hmmm interesting
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Parylizer
Ok, so far i've tried US west. US west 2, and US central since I get best ping there
DM me if you don’t mind.
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donp
DM me if you don’t mind.
wont let me DM you
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The more I think about the new interface change, the more I think it was a giant middle finger to this HIP. Which leads me to one of two conclusions; 1) that Anthony should not bother spending his time on this HIP because he is not going to get support from Helium for implementation; this is because they seem to saying that uplinks are far more important than downlinks 2) that we as a community are really going to have to get behind Anthony to get this implemented to get over the apparent hurdle from #1. And given the vitriol from some of the folks in here, that is concerning to me. We are going to have to make it loud and clear that we as a community want "ideal setups" to be defined as providing coverage with up and down links.
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what about instead of the ratio we just divide the rewards equally between witnessing beacons and getting witnessed. This will make it so that people have to actually make it so that their signal are getting broadcasted and not just leach the rewards of other people beacons
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BusyPanda
what about instead of the ratio we just divide the rewards equally between witnessing beacons and getting witnessed. This will make it so that people have to actually make it so that their signal are getting broadcasted and not just leach the rewards of other people beacons
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/26/2022 2:41 AM
That would destroy earnings for healthy hotspots.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
That would destroy earnings for healthy hotspots.
how are they healthy if they aren't broadcasting and just witnessing
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/26/2022 2:43 AM
You naturally beacon far less than you witness. One beacon can have many witnesses.
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BusyPanda
how are they healthy if they aren't broadcasting and just witnessing
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/26/2022 2:44 AM
I didn't say hotspots with 0 witnesses were healthy
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I don't see how they can't implement this HIP with the explorer update taking away the ability to track how many different witnesses you have.
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DaBum
I don't see how they can't implement this HIP with the explorer update taking away the ability to track how many different witnesses you have.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/26/2022 3:25 AM
There are a lot of other tools to track that. :)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
There are a lot of other tools to track that. :)
Sure but people should have to jump through hoops to find out something as important as that once this is put into effect. I don't get why they didn't just add the witnessed. Two tabs, one for witnessed and one for witnesses. A hip like this requires up front transparency imo. Should need to utilize 3rd party resources to track.
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DaBum
Sure but people should have to jump through hoops to find out something as important as that once this is put into effect. I don't get why they didn't just add the witnessed. Two tabs, one for witnessed and one for witnesses. A hip like this requires up front transparency imo. Should need to utilize 3rd party resources to track.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/26/2022 3:28 AM
Welcome to decentralized. ;) Everyone has access to the data
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Welcome to decentralized. ;) Everyone has access to the data
And more and more of those sources are going to pay required. That will only continue to be more prevalent.
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DaBum
And more and more of those sources are going to pay required. That will only continue to be more prevalent.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/26/2022 3:32 AM
Cross that bridge of you come to it. As of right now there are a lot of free sites.
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DaBum
Sure but people should have to jump through hoops to find out something as important as that once this is put into effect. I don't get why they didn't just add the witnessed. Two tabs, one for witnessed and one for witnesses. A hip like this requires up front transparency imo. Should need to utilize 3rd party resources to track.
I do agree with this statement. It could have been an update in the works prior to HIP-42 vote. There could have been API concerns or performance issues that caused the change.
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@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped @donp @Parylizer --- close your port
12:28
it's not the vpn - it's the massive amounts of shit that's being sent to the port
12:28
2022-01-26 20:15:21.254 1 [error] <0.4865.0>@libp2p_multistream:read:40 CRASH REPORT Process <0.4865.0> with 0 neighbours crashed with reason: no match of right hand value {error,{missing_terminator,<<"ET /db/manage/ HTTP/1.1\r\nHost: my.ip.address.lol:7474\r\nUser-Agent: Mozilla/">>}} in libp2p_multistream:read/2 line 40 (edited)
12:30
And this is why some people will see it with virgin hotspots on their home networks
12:30
Some routers filter this crap out - the vpn does not. You can enable firewalls on your server to help prevent it but it's effectively a DoS attack against your hotspot
12:32
all that are going to the miner
12:33
but specifically 44158 in my cases
😮 1
12:33
look at the log and see if you can tell when I closed it: https://pastebin.com/raw/8a50mXGR
12:36
with the exception of one block, all have completed in less than 40 seconds since closing it
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but I'm going to test it for some tiem
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for anyone who's using a VPN, do this on the vpn server: https://github.com/dajul/ufw-spamhaus (edited)
Download Spamhaus DROP and EDROP Lists and block access with UFW - GitHub - dajul/ufw-spamhaus: Download Spamhaus DROP and EDROP Lists and block access with UFW
13:54
I'm going to update my DIY right now
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@proslasher Hmmm interesting. What is the all the data that is DOSing the port? Is it just helium traffic or some kind of attack? I'll try closing the port but hopefully there is another solution as I use VPN so I won't be relayed.
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and hopefully a solution that can be done on the hotspot. cause I use both self hosted and public vpn, so I don't have access to run spamhaus on the public vpn (edited)
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Parylizer
@proslasher Hmmm interesting. What is the all the data that is DOSing the port? Is it just helium traffic or some kind of attack? I'll try closing the port but hopefully there is another solution as I use VPN so I won't be relayed.
well this is only part of it
15:07
there's more I'm still looking
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noliturbare 01/26/2022 4:10 PM
here is an example of a good and well-functioning hotspot (Narrow Honey Porcupine) that would suffer by HIP42 because the network just does not let it beacon. It witnesses a lot and beacons mostly with max number of witnesses but now it has not beaconed 3 days and would be affected by HIP42 (according to the Dewi test: witness receipts 411 / 5 day receipts limit 272 as of now) . in fact, the earnings of that hotspot have decreased significantly below its usual average in the recent 2 days. and that is not a very exceptional situation, I have seen such hotspots in the same city before. Before any HIP42 it should be guaranteed that hotspots would beacon with a decent interval. (edited)
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noliturbare 01/26/2022 4:17 PM
murphy’s law. it finally broadcasted right now. but still, its beacon balance was negative until that moment
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okay so it still stays 96 blocks behind the head of the chain.
16:44
something is weird with this logic
16:44
specifically ok = blockchain_ledger_v1:commit_context(AuxLedger1); (edited)
16:46
when the DB gets big, it's really really slow
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sorry for the question... is hip 42 active?
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captainhindsight 01/27/2022 6:21 PM
Sadly it seems I'm not allowed to post inages here so you'll have to imagine the screen capture I've just taken from Helium Explorer. How would HIP42 handle this? A constellation of hotspots in Germany, pretending to be in southeast England. They beacon and they witness - only each other though because they are probably all in one building.
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noliturbare
here is an example of a good and well-functioning hotspot (Narrow Honey Porcupine) that would suffer by HIP42 because the network just does not let it beacon. It witnesses a lot and beacons mostly with max number of witnesses but now it has not beaconed 3 days and would be affected by HIP42 (according to the Dewi test: witness receipts 411 / 5 day receipts limit 272 as of now) . in fact, the earnings of that hotspot have decreased significantly below its usual average in the recent 2 days. and that is not a very exceptional situation, I have seen such hotspots in the same city before. Before any HIP42 it should be guaranteed that hotspots would beacon with a decent interval. (edited)
Wise Technology 01/28/2022 1:31 AM
same with me for 3 days no Broadcasted Beacon Why I have to loos earning because of Helium Network?
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Wise Technology
same with me for 3 days no Broadcasted Beacon Why I have to loos earning because of Helium Network?
captainhindsight 01/28/2022 2:07 AM
It could well be spoofers who are to blame
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captainhindsight
Sadly it seems I'm not allowed to post inages here so you'll have to imagine the screen capture I've just taken from Helium Explorer. How would HIP42 handle this? A constellation of hotspots in Germany, pretending to be in southeast England. They beacon and they witness - only each other though because they are probably all in one building.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/28/2022 2:13 AM
Wrong HIP. This HIP has nothing to do with location spoofing.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Wrong HIP. This HIP has nothing to do with location spoofing.
captainhindsight 01/28/2022 2:15 AM
I'm a bit busy just now but later I'll explain why I think it's related
🤨 1
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captainhindsight 01/28/2022 2:23 AM
The spoofers cause reduced beaconing
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captainhindsight
The spoofers cause reduced beaconing
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/28/2022 2:25 AM
Incorrect. And again, this HIP has no effect on location spoofers.
02:26
This HIP affects "witness stuffing" exploit.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
This HIP affects "witness stuffing" exploit.
captainhindsight 01/28/2022 2:33 AM
Which works how?
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captainhindsight
Which works how?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/28/2022 2:37 AM
What, the exploit?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
What, the exploit?
captainhindsight 01/28/2022 2:38 AM
Yes. I've seen the phrase but no idea what it means
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captainhindsight
Yes. I've seen the phrase but no idea what it means
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/28/2022 2:39 AM
in short, they copy witness events, modify the data, and "stuff" the witnesses so they get rewarded a lot more often. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
in short, they copy witness events, modify the data, and "stuff" the witnesses so they get rewarded a lot more often. (edited)
captainhindsight 01/28/2022 2:40 AM
Ah - ok - thanks. Are you able to explain how hotspots are selected for beaconing?
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captainhindsight
Ah - ok - thanks. Are you able to explain how hotspots are selected for beaconing?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/28/2022 2:41 AM
It's random
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It's random
captainhindsight 01/28/2022 2:42 AM
So a spoofed hotspot is just as likely to be selected to beacon as a hotspot that exists for real in a given hex?
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captainhindsight
So a spoofed hotspot is just as likely to be selected to beacon as a hotspot that exists for real in a given hex?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/28/2022 2:43 AM
Yes
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yes
captainhindsight 01/28/2022 2:44 AM
And I won't be able to witness that beacon - because the beaconing hotspot is actually, say, 1000 miles away
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captainhindsight
And I won't be able to witness that beacon - because the beaconing hotspot is actually, say, 1000 miles away
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/28/2022 2:44 AM
Correct
02:45
The real hotpots in the area still beacon just as often as they would if the spoofers were not there.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Correct
captainhindsight 01/28/2022 2:45 AM
So if I'm surrounded by a constellation of spoofed hotspots sitting in a warehouse 1000 miles away, they can beacon and witness each other all day, and I'll witness nothing.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/28/2022 2:46 AM
But again... this HIP has nothing to do with location spoofers.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
But again... this HIP has nothing to do with location spoofers.
captainhindsight 01/28/2022 2:47 AM
If the real hotspots in a given geographical area do actually beacon as frequently as they would if the spoofed hotspots were not 'there', then I'd have to agree
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captainhindsight
If the real hotspots in a given geographical area do actually beacon as frequently as they would if the spoofed hotspots were not 'there', then I'd have to agree
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/28/2022 2:49 AM
They do. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
They do. 🙂
captainhindsight 01/28/2022 2:51 AM
Ok then. If that's the case, things aren't quite as bad as I thought
🙂 1
02:53
Witness stuffers never beacon?
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Wise Technology 01/28/2022 2:58 AM
my hotspot is real and I update the antenna information with real value and still for 3 days no Broadcasted Beacon and HIP-42 applied to my hotspot you can check my Hotspot ( Gentle Tangelo Hare )
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captainhindsight
Witness stuffers never beacon?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/28/2022 2:59 AM
Never or rarely. Their witnesses to witnessing ratio is always waaaay off.
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Wise Technology
my hotspot is real and I update the antenna information with real value and still for 3 days no Broadcasted Beacon and HIP-42 applied to my hotspot you can check my Hotspot ( Gentle Tangelo Hare )
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/28/2022 3:01 AM
Can't ping it. Check your setup
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Never or rarely. Their witnesses to witnessing ratio is always waaaay off.
captainhindsight 01/28/2022 3:03 AM
I had believed that beaconer selection started with a hex, and then a hotspot within that hex (or pretending to be) was selected at random. But it's completely random, and (apparent) geographical location is completely irrelevant?
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captainhindsight
I had believed that beaconer selection started with a hex, and then a hotspot within that hex (or pretending to be) was selected at random. But it's completely random, and (apparent) geographical location is completely irrelevant?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/28/2022 3:05 AM
The number of challenges sent to a hex (res4) varies based on how many hotspots are there. All hotspots get the same average number of challenges over time.
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Wise Technology 01/28/2022 3:06 AM
Your all-in-one tool for building the Helium network
03:06
it is not relayed
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Wise Technology
it is not relayed
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/28/2022 3:07 AM
Never said it was 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The number of challenges sent to a hex (res4) varies based on how many hotspots are there. All hotspots get the same average number of challenges over time.
captainhindsight 01/28/2022 3:10 AM
So there IS a geographical element? The res 4 hex? (edited)
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captainhindsight
So there IS a geographical element? The res 4 hex? (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/28/2022 3:12 AM
The timing of the challenge and where in the world the challenge comes from is random
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The timing of the challenge and where in the world the challenge comes from is random
captainhindsight 01/28/2022 3:13 AM
But the beaconer selection starts with a res 4 hex and then a hotspot 'in' that hex is selected at random?
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captainhindsight
But the beaconer selection starts with a res 4 hex and then a hotspot 'in' that hex is selected at random?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/28/2022 3:15 AM
The number of challenges per epoch per res4 are determined by hotspot population of the res4
03:15
The challenger does not have to be in that same res4
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The challenger does not have to be in that same res4
captainhindsight 01/28/2022 3:16 AM
The challenger does not have to be in the same res 4 as what?
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captainhindsight
The challenger does not have to be in the same res 4 as what?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/28/2022 3:17 AM
As the challenged hotspot
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
As the challenged hotspot
captainhindsight 01/28/2022 3:19 AM
I never said they did. I think we might be like the blind men describing the elephant here 😄 (edited)
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captainhindsight
I never said they did. I think we might be like the blind men describing the elephant here 😄 (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/28/2022 3:19 AM
Just was clarifying in advance 😉
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captainhindsight 01/28/2022 3:20 AM
I'd rather just get answers to my questions than some tangential factoid.
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captainhindsight
I'd rather just get answers to my questions than some tangential factoid.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/28/2022 3:21 AM
It was relevant to your line of questioning. But you can just take this to the correct channel #poc-discussion
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captainhindsight 01/28/2022 3:21 AM
Is this whole challenger selection > challenge > beacon > witness procedure documented somewhere, so I can read it for myself?
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captainhindsight
Is this whole challenger selection > challenge > beacon > witness procedure documented somewhere, so I can read it for myself?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/28/2022 3:22 AM
Yes
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yes
captainhindsight 01/28/2022 3:22 AM
Could you possibly point me in the right direction?
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captainhindsight
Could you possibly point me in the right direction?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/28/2022 3:23 AM
Get Started with Helium
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captainhindsight 01/28/2022 3:23 AM
Wow. Thanks so much
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captainhindsight
Wow. Thanks so much
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/28/2022 3:24 AM
Hard to tell if that should have had a /s or not...
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captainhindsight 01/28/2022 3:25 AM
Sarcasm?
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03:26
Yeah - just not quite understanding the frostiness
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/28/2022 3:26 AM
Frosty? Not at all. I pointed you in the right direction as you asked.
03:27
"Teach a man to fish..."
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Frosty? Not at all. I pointed you in the right direction as you asked.
captainhindsight 01/28/2022 3:27 AM
The whole conversation to be honest but never mind.
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captainhindsight
The whole conversation to be honest but never mind.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/28/2022 3:28 AM
Well then you are putting in tone that isn't there. 🙂 (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Well then you are putting in tone that isn't there. 🙂 (edited)
captainhindsight 01/28/2022 3:28 AM
Yeah. It's my fault
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/28/2022 3:29 AM
I'm not here to find fault. 🤷‍♂️
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captainhindsight 01/28/2022 3:35 AM
Any ideas how I can get the hotspot owner role on my profile? All the roles appear to be greyed out for me 🙁
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captainhindsight
Any ideas how I can get the hotspot owner role on my profile? All the roles appear to be greyed out for me 🙁
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/28/2022 3:41 AM
You just ping a mod with a pic of your install while holding a paper with your username on it. In #general IIRC
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You just ping a mod with a pic of your install while holding a paper with your username on it. In #general IIRC
captainhindsight 01/28/2022 3:41 AM
Thanks
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Man. My earnings going down from 0.6 to 0.2
13:36
Thats an realy Bad Update. I invested So much money
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w4l0rd
Thats an realy Bad Update. I invested So much money
This isn’t live yet…
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Deleted User 02/01/2022 4:13 AM
@Anthonyra ? I have a question 🙋‍♂️
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Deleted User
@Anthonyra ? I have a question 🙋‍♂️
Shoot
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Deleted User 02/01/2022 4:25 AM
Can I share a screenshot of some@miners that came online 2 weeks. There not mine however I want to see if HIP42 will eliminate or penalize them
04:26
Seems they are 1.5+ hnt daily and continuing to witness only themselves within the same wallet
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Deleted User
Can I share a screenshot of some@miners that came online 2 weeks. There not mine however I want to see if HIP42 will eliminate or penalize them
If you’re able to access the DeWi I have a tool that’ll let you check each hotspot to see how they would fair. Now I probably need to update the tool thinking about it because the poc_challenge_interval has changed…
04:27
If you’re not sure how to update the SQL queue I can when I get home from the gym
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Deleted User 02/01/2022 4:28 AM
Please and thank you 🙏
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Dapper Corduroy Hawk could you scale down your dbi to 3dbi for full witnesses for your beacons
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shadowmeree 02/05/2022 6:03 PM
Given the reduced challenge frequency, and higher failure rate of PoC activity receipts, surely the limit ratio will need adjustments? Unless this will only be implemented after light hotspots are proven to fix all the PoC woes
☝️ 1
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/05/2022 10:57 PM
That can't be right.
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Ah new cheating record in terms of 24h profits. With a new miner supplier. Ridiculous https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11RRL4bJtV2JiHshjLw1mST7W9Git7mJ7pQsj2Vzj5YZHfcQqXA
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
That can't be right.
For what it's worth, it's been added to the denylist
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
The datasource used for that tool was lagging behind and needed to catch up but HIP-42 would have caught it
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Anthonyra
The datasource used for that tool was lagging behind and needed to catch up but HIP-42 would have caught it
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/06/2022 12:39 PM
That makes sense. :)
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Anthonyra
For what it's worth, it's been added to the denylist
And yet it's still banking 1.5hnt per day just because some manufacturers have not updated to the miner release of Jan 29 which was 1.5 weeks ago. This is offtopic, I know (edited)
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ricopt5
And yet it's still banking 1.5hnt per day just because some manufacturers have not updated to the miner release of Jan 29 which was 1.5 weeks ago. This is offtopic, I know (edited)
But the denylist was suppose to save all of our HNT!
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I guess it still pays off if you spread out some packet forwarders. Even if you're blacklisted. We need hip 40 (edited)
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ricopt5
And yet it's still banking 1.5hnt per day just because some manufacturers have not updated to the miner release of Jan 29 which was 1.5 weeks ago. This is offtopic, I know (edited)
Sadly.. Indeed we need both hip 40 and this one
💯 1
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zzeddd
Sadly.. Indeed we need both hip 40 and this one
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/08/2022 12:30 PM
And 44
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
And 44
I would like for the limit to be increased on that one before approving it
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ricopt5
I would like for the limit to be increased on that one before approving it
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/08/2022 12:49 PM
I'm honestly waiting for a tool to check impact to current hotspots so we can see the real world impact it would have. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I'm honestly waiting for a tool to check impact to current hotspots so we can see the real world impact it would have. 🙂
I can probably make one. But it would be very taxing on the helium API to get all the POC receipts for each hotspot within a timeframe
12:58
Unless @bigdaveakers is able to produce a magical SQL query for it 🤓
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ricopt5
I can probably make one. But it would be very taxing on the helium API to get all the POC receipts for each hotspot within a timeframe
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/08/2022 12:58 PM
Yeah, I don't know the ins and outs of how that would have to work, but I wouldn't think it would be more taxing than the current slate of ETL tools I've seen. 🙂
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ricopt5
Unless @bigdaveakers is able to produce a magical SQL query for it 🤓
bigdaveakers 02/08/2022 1:06 PM
I am pretty sure that it could be done. It would be equally taxing on the ETL.......unless I had my own dedicated ETL #soon
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Eastern Dragonfly 55 02/10/2022 11:11 AM
Guys, today I changed stock antenna on bobcat with McGill 9dbi omnidirectional antenna , unfortunately I scratched it during installation. 8 hours passed the only activity is Beacon , NO witnesses. Is it possible that I have damaged the antenna. Also my hotspot is showing SYNCED in the dashboard but in the helium.explorer showing SYNCING?? Any advice? Name of the hotspot is PUNY NEON GERBIL.
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Eastern Dragonfly 55
Guys, today I changed stock antenna on bobcat with McGill 9dbi omnidirectional antenna , unfortunately I scratched it during installation. 8 hours passed the only activity is Beacon , NO witnesses. Is it possible that I have damaged the antenna. Also my hotspot is showing SYNCED in the dashboard but in the helium.explorer showing SYNCING?? Any advice? Name of the hotspot is PUNY NEON GERBIL.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/10/2022 2:29 PM
This is not a support channel. 🤨
14:30
Do people even read the channel labels anymore? 🤔
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Can somone semd me the link to a doc aboit hip-42..?
16:15
Is there a secrion to see what hip are approved or their statotus..? A resume with all the hip
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I'm honestly waiting for a tool to check impact to current hotspots so we can see the real world impact it would have. 🙂
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/11/2022 8:18 PM
What kind of tool, im up for the challenge for data ingest and visualization. EDIT: nvm, read more... (edited)
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
What kind of tool, im up for the challenge for data ingest and visualization. EDIT: nvm, read more... (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/11/2022 8:34 PM
Something like the hip 42 tool. :)
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danilojavier10 02/15/2022 7:00 PM
Hey all. Is there a time if ever when a hotspot is removed from the blockchain for being offline for too long ? In my resolution 4 hex there is a bunch of offline hotspots that have been offline for over three months and they just contribute to drastically drive down transmit scale and I do not have a relocation option. Any one has any advise on this note ?
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danilojavier10
Hey all. Is there a time if ever when a hotspot is removed from the blockchain for being offline for too long ? In my resolution 4 hex there is a bunch of offline hotspots that have been offline for over three months and they just contribute to drastically drive down transmit scale and I do not have a relocation option. Any one has any advise on this note ?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/15/2022 7:52 PM
~2.5 days. Those hotspots are not being counted for scaling.
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danilojavier10 02/16/2022 8:09 AM
Thanks 😅. I’m new to helium and just starting to get the hang of it. What is the portal used to vote for hips. Most people don’t look into these small letters and just think that plugging the miner is the end of the road.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Do people even read the channel labels anymore? 🤔
No. Can you help me with my Testnet light hotspot? 😉
coolcry 1
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krby
No. Can you help me with my Testnet light hotspot? 😉
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/16/2022 12:08 PM
12:08
lol
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/02/2022 1:48 PM
This is not a support channel. Please read the channel names. #hotspot-help
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How are we on this? We are more and more in need of this HIP
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ricopt5
How are we on this? We are more and more in need of this HIP
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/11/2022 2:54 PM
Last we checked, the temp check vote passed so the work to coding it would start. I think we're just waiting on that at this point.
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I am new to helium world - where can we check progress of this hip?
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Kluka
I am new to helium world - where can we check progress of this hip?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/12/2022 1:53 PM
Start with the pinned messages
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Hi distance of witness is effect earning ?
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Someone knows how it’s possible to witnessed and don’t have any witnesses like this one https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11T7uFAzePrZaRwbfMvN3eAonizocUpx3buyGFhVp4mCC7Cc4eJ
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
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@AntonioMinero91 @XchemicaL If this is not about HIP42, no one will answer you here.
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XchemicaL
Someone knows how it’s possible to witnessed and don’t have any witnesses like this one https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11T7uFAzePrZaRwbfMvN3eAonizocUpx3buyGFhVp4mCC7Cc4eJ
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/20/2022 1:35 PM
Stop spamming
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Stop spamming
It’s not spamming
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Stop spamming
You could better of help with telling me where to drop this question?
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XchemicaL
You could better of help with telling me where to drop this question?
Are you reporting suspected cheating? If so try #hip-40-validator-denylist , if you're just asking a general question, try #questions-and-answers . If you're trying to figure out something for your own hotspot, try #poc-discussion mabye? But generally asking the same question over and over in different channels makes people more likely to ignore you. (edited)
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krby
Are you reporting suspected cheating? If so try #hip-40-validator-denylist , if you're just asking a general question, try #questions-and-answers . If you're trying to figure out something for your own hotspot, try #poc-discussion mabye? But generally asking the same question over and over in different channels makes people more likely to ignore you. (edited)
Thanks for the info I will try #poc-discussion, I got my answer thanks again (edited)
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 03/31/2022 2:38 PM
Wait this is still a thing?? I thought this hip was dead?
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The temp check poll passed, so I think Anthony is writing code before it goes to a real vote.
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Wait this is still a thing?? I thought this hip was dead?
During the temperature check poll it was agreed to be delayed until after light hotspots are activated to remove issues and assumptions around relayed hotspots. When light hotspots are launched and the network is stable work will commence on the code. Once the code has been completed and reviewed there will be a final vote to approve or deny this HIP it will also be used to determine activation window if approved.
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Anthonyra
During the temperature check poll it was agreed to be delayed until after light hotspots are activated to remove issues and assumptions around relayed hotspots. When light hotspots are launched and the network is stable work will commence on the code. Once the code has been completed and reviewed there will be a final vote to approve or deny this HIP it will also be used to determine activation window if approved.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/01/2022 7:34 AM
Cool sounds like the right way to handle this hip I’m all for it we just need a more stable network lol I haven’t sent a beacon in like 3 days atm….
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PoC rate!!!!!! weary weary weary Hello, unfortunately the network is not yet in order. I have 12 hotspots and they do not send 3 beacons together in 24 hours. It's a disaster with the network... Thank you
facepalm 2
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AlexaFg
PoC rate!!!!!! weary weary weary Hello, unfortunately the network is not yet in order. I have 12 hotspots and they do not send 3 beacons together in 24 hours. It's a disaster with the network... Thank you
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/08/2022 3:42 AM
Hi, this is the wrong channel, please ask in #hotspot-help
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Hello all, I tried the check HIP-42 links but the Metabase tool tells me I need and administrator to log in with Google. Am I missing something? https://etl.dewi.org/question/624-poc-witness-scaling-by-name-hip-42
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Latam
Hello all, I tried the check HIP-42 links but the Metabase tool tells me I need and administrator to log in with Google. Am I missing something? https://etl.dewi.org/question/624-poc-witness-scaling-by-name-hip-42
You need to login with a gmail account. And it really needs to be an @gmail account, not a business account (edited)
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Max - Just Max 05/24/2022 3:25 PM
How is this going? Now that we’re at light hotspots and hopefully fairly regular beacon rates wondering if it’s worth picking back up on this
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It’s worth picking it back up but doing it on chain isn’t really going to work well. Unfortunately rewards calculations happen within an epoch and there is no ongoing counter per hotspot on the ledger that would make this a cinch to implement.
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Also the PoC rate doesn't quite line up with the expected/wanted beacons per day with hotspots.. I think we need to wait a little longer to see the network settle (stabilize) also
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i don't think it has to be daily, imo. if we could do it off chain, we could be very flexible.
11:04
in general, the longer look back period, the better data
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 06/03/2022 6:46 PM
This is not a support channel. Please use #hotspot-help
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Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
06:11
What’s this he found a new trick
06:12
??
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XchemicaL
What’s this he found a new trick
Not a trick, known issue first identified Friday afternoon, about 900 doing various types of this, they are working to fix this.
14:04
Succinctly there’s a choice of a hex and the only eligible miner happens to be this one. The rest are ineligible and hidden from view because of that on explorer.
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@shadowfax thanks for explaining
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Anthonyra
I have two different kinds of tools that utilize the DeWi ETL to caculate the effects per hotspot. You need to login with a gmail.com email to us it. https://etl.dewi.org/question/461-poc-witness-scaling-hip-42 (using public address of hotspot) or https://etl.dewi.org/question/624-poc-witness-scaling-by-name-hip-42 (using the name-name-name of the hotspot)
Hi, thank you for writing this hip and makijg these tools! Quick question, tried using the tools, both keep giving me an error.
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John Mac
Hi, thank you for writing this hip and makijg these tools! Quick question, tried using the tools, both keep giving me an error.
Care sharing your public address you're trying to check?
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Anthonyra
Care sharing your public address you're trying to check?
Sure friend request sent
👍 1
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Anthonyra
Care sharing your public address you're trying to check?
Thank you for your time and explanations in dm. Hope the foundation fixes the charts since the etl reboot. Looking forward to seeing your hip evolve, once off chain poc is realized.
💯 1
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What is the status of this proposal? I think fix the h3dex bug and get this HIP approved. I believe it will solve justice problems
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nf-cktuese
What is the status of this proposal? I think fix the h3dex bug and get this HIP approved. I believe it will solve justice problems
This HIP is approved for code, but I agree h3dex should be fixed before this. Also IOT oracles and the work being planned there may make this obsolete so I'm just holding tight
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Hi - @Anthonyra can you give an update on this HIP? It went for a temperature check but from my understanding there was no code implemented. Is there anything else you'd like to do with this HIP? This HIP has been open for some time without any noticeable action. If there's nothing else you'd like to do we are going to move to close this HIP. We will close this by the end of the week (10/28).
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valerie
Hi - @Anthonyra can you give an update on this HIP? It went for a temperature check but from my understanding there was no code implemented. Is there anything else you'd like to do with this HIP? This HIP has been open for some time without any noticeable action. If there's nothing else you'd like to do we are going to move to close this HIP. We will close this by the end of the week (10/28).
Anxiously awaiting oracles at this point. Since PoC is moving off-chain..
08:24
Since it was a temp check though. It'll probably make sense to be brought back as a sub-DAO (IOT) specific improvement proposal. So no hard feelings to close and archive this in terms of a HIP. @valerie
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All sounds good! You'll have all the great work you did, and this channel archived and indexed. So you can come back to it when the IOT-specific subDAO is up. Thanks for all your work on this!
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w!lock ?t c
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notallowed #hip-42-beacon-witness-ratio-witness-reward-limit has been locked!
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